Social Justice White/Straight/Cis/Male Privilege

[birdup.snaildown]

I think it's better to think about it in terms of relative lack of privilege. White privilege means there's an issue in black community with a lack of privilege that needs to be addressed somehow. Pointing fingers at other races doesn't solve internal issues and it's honestly not clear (if you look at the data) that the sustained level of poverty over the past two decades in African American communities is the result of slavery or racial injustice.

I don't like the word "privilege" because straight cis white men are treated better by society. When people say "white privilege" it puts the blame on each white individual as though they are the root of the problem. Straight white cis guys didn't chose to be born that way either.

I don't like this (in bold).

 

[mal3volent]

I don't know if you say stuff like this intentionally to just stir up division or if this is really your perspective, but it seems crazy to me. Surely you don't think 90% of Trump fan's believe every trans person wants to rape their child?!?

what would you say the percentage is then ?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I wouldn't... I don't believe you think it is anywhere near the vicinity of 90%.

 

[Droppersneck]

"These days straight white men are the most oppressed group" - my dad.
I've had loooooooong discussions with him since then and now he knows that pretty much the opposite is true,

I don't like the word "privilege" because straight cis white men are treated better by society. When people say "white privilege" it puts the blame on each white individual as though they are the root of the problem. Straight white cis guys didn't chose to be born that way either. It is society's fault.

I always wonder how devout idpolers don’t see that they are being manipulated. Dividing people into groups and pitting them against each other is all about obfuscating class politics. How don’t you guys see this? It’s not some grande conspiracy, look at any major propaganda outlet. Although I acknowledge the true believers/‘journalists’ actually believe they are helping and being altruistic.

 

[✿Dai₷y✿]

is this your example of an intelligent argument ?

Do you think you or anyone else tend to overuse this whole "white privilege " and "cis" whatever trendy word du jour to shut down anyone you don't agree with without having to make any effort?




I doubt you are interested in anything except getting people pissed off here for not much of a reason.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

I always wonder how devout idpolers don’t see that they are being manipulated. Dividing people into groups and pitting them against each other is all about obfuscating class politics. How don’t you guys see this? It’s not some grande conspiracy, look at any major propaganda outlet. Although I acknowledge the true believers/‘journalists’ actually believe they are helping and being altruistic.

I'm not a cis white straight man btw

 

[Droppersneck]

I'm not a cis white straight man btw

Judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. It’s like neo liberals learned absolutely nothing from the civil rights era.

 

[mal3volent]

Do you think you or anyone else tend to overuse this whole "white privilege " and "cis" whatever trendy word du jour to shut down anyone you don't agree with without having to make any effort?




I doubt you are interested in anything except getting people pissed off here for not much of a reason.

you obviously don't know much about me if you think that's how I am. I'm not much on trends and throughout my life I've always gravitated to people I don't agree with more so than ones I do.

I think the fact that white privilege, male privilege, straight, cis, etc privilege exists is just a fundamental truth. It doesn't say anything bad about the people in any of those groups, and it doesn't necessarily say anything good about those outside.

It's about the starting line of life. If you make all other factors equal, a male will have a head start over the female. Not because she is less than him but because our society has made it that way. Same with the other groups.

I love straight white cis males. Can't get enough of em honestly.

 

[✿Dai₷y✿]

you obviously don't know much about me if you think that's how I am. I'm not much on trends and throughout my life I've always gravitated to people I don't agree with more so than ones I do.

I think the fact that white privilege, male privilege, straight, cis, etc privilege exists is just a fundamental truth. It doesn't say anything bad about the people in any of those groups, and it doesn't necessarily say anything good about those outside.

It's about the starting line of life. If you make all other factors equal, a male will have a head start over the female. Not because she is less than him but because our society has made it that way. Same with the other groups.

I love straight white cis males. Can't get enough of em honestly.

Youre right, I dont know you that well so thought I'd ask you rather than make assumptions.

I haven't got the anti heterosexual or anti majority vibe from you anywhere or any kind of defensiveness, thought you were a British woman for a while , no idea why though.

Not sure if "check your privilege " or "white privilege" thing does what you say is intended.



It does exist, the whole gender/race thing. White privilege would be more apparent in the States than other areas ie Europe/UK.


What does trivialising a white straight guys responses to this subject achieve though? I dont think its a great way to get anyone to admit white privilege exists.

I know white dudes have always had the upper hand in society compared to women, but that's not exactly the same as straight/gay.

Women have had a crucial role that doesn't seem to count for shit anymore Being the one to raise the kids and run the household isn't valued to societys peril.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

thought you were a British woman for a while

Wait.

@mal3volent... are you not a British woman?

Women have had a crucial role that doesn't seem to count for shit anymore Being the one to raise the kids and run the household isn't valued to societys peril.

There's already a lot of people.

 

[JessFR]

"These days straight white men are the most oppressed group" - my dad.
I've had loooooooong discussions with him since then and now he knows that pretty much the opposite is true,

What's so stupid about that belief is that to make it true you pretty much have to take a definition of disadvantage that is, itself, a reflection of how advantaged you really are.

Get a photo lineup of every single American president in history. Tell me how oppressed straight white men are and I'll laugh in your face. :D

I kinda think when they say "white men are the most oppressed these days". What they mean is "I am seeing the result of not being the default, primary group in everything everytime anymore and I don't like it".

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

What's so stupid about that belief is that to make it true you pretty much have to take a definition of disadvantage that is, itself, a reflection of how advantaged you really are.

Get a photo lineup of every single American president in history. Tell me how oppressed straight white men are and I'll laugh in your face. :D

I kinda thing when they say "white men are the most oppressed these days". What they mean is "I am seeing the result of not being the default, primary group in everything everytime anymore and I don't like it".

I 100% agree with everything you said here

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I kinda think when they say "white men are the most oppressed these days". What they mean is "I am seeing the result of not being the default, primary group in everything everytime anymore and I don't like it".

Most oppressed is the wrong wording. Maybe the intersection of cis / straight / male / right-wing / white = the most openly hated-on demographic in the Western world currently? Can we agree on that?

Get a photo lineup of every single American president in history. Tell me how oppressed straight white men are and I'll laugh in your face.

The president 5 years ago was a black man with a Muslim name, but (besides that) the president in 1948 isn't relevant to the current climate. Nobody is arguing that white people did not have certain advantages historically. Of course we did. Presidents literally owned slaved...

1) What is the racist history of the US?
2) Is the US still a racist country?

These are different questions. They need to be treated as such... don't they?

You posted this thing about how many black billionaires there are in the world as evidence of current worldwide prejudice against black people. Your president argument is flawed for exactly the same reasons. The number of presidents and billionaires isn't going to suddenly become equal the same day that we stop discriminating against people.

 

[JessFR]

Most oppressed is the wrong wording. Maybe the intersection of cis / straight / male / right-wing / white = the most openly hated-on demographic in the Western world currently? Can we agree on that?

Openly in what sense? Cause I hear racist shit against blacks on the internet all the time. Openly as in just what the official mainstream media says? Why is that the definition? If you wanna wind a definition where whites are worse off I'm sure you can. But I don't know that it means very much. From a purely self interested standpoint, I'd definitely prefer to be white in our society.

The president 5 years ago was a black man with a Muslim name, but (besides that) the president in 1948 isn't relevant to the current climate. Nobody is arguing that white people did not have certain advantages historically. Of course we did. Presidents literally owned slaved...

1) What is the racist history of the US?
2) Is the US still a racist country?

These are different questions. They need to be treated as such... don't they?

You posted this thing about how many black billionaires there are in the world as evidence of current worldwide prejudice against black people. Your president argument is flawed for exactly the same reasons. The number of presidents and billionaires isn't going to suddenly become equal the same day that we stop discriminating against people.

I'd like to point out that that president.... was a black man who was accused over and over again of not 'really' being american but actually being born in kenya. Who originally opposed a white man, who was born in an unincorporated territory that wasn't even held anymore by that point and hadn't been for nearly 30 years, yet who's americanness went unchallanged.

My arguments were not supposed to be singular proofs of the absolute truth of ongoing racism, they are just individual examples.
Yes they are different questions, though I'd say 2 is the more important. And on arguably most measures of actual practical standards of living, you're better off being white in America. Does that make the US a racist country? Yeah probably.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The most interesting data around racism in the US would be inter-generational social mobility. Basically comparing income/education (including welfare status) of parents to their children and grandchildren.

I don’t have that data but I suspect it is beginning to show a slower rate of increase in both white and black populations but with the black curve always being flatter than the white.

The curves would look very different in different states but with the same disparity.

Unless you want to go to a biological explanation that’d be your best evidence of the existence of what the Left calls “structural racism” or “institutional racism”.

However I did recently read a very controversial academic paper that attributed the difference to “black culture”. But then again culture forms partly in response to environment. Like I said in an earlier post: wicked problems.

 

[Droppersneck]

I’m beginning to think people actually get off on being the victim. There has to be a dopamine rush, or some sort of payoff. My guess is it’s something similar to what the people on Reddit that over feed their pets for upvotes get

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I hear racist shit against blacks on the internet all the time.

I guess this is the difference. I don't see it, at all. I wasn't talking about the MSM. I hear a lot of anti-white shit (online and in person) and anti-male shit (same). I don't remember the last time I heard something anti-black or anti-female. This has been happening to some degree, my entire life. I think - perhaps - we live in different versions of reality.

However I did recently read a very controversial academic paper that attributed the difference to “black culture”.

Not sure how this is controversial?

From a purely self interested standpoint, I'd definitely prefer to be white in our society.

In terms of "privilege" and broad statistics, I'd rather be born an Asian in NZ rather than white and rather be female rather than male. I'd rather be Asian in the US also, but rather be born white in Asia.

White is a simplification and it isn't a particularly useful one.

My arguments were not supposed to be singular proofs of the absolute truth of ongoing racism, they are just individual examples.

They do not function as examples.

on arguably most measures of actual practical standards of living, you're better off being white in America. Does that make the US a racist country? Yeah probably.

Agree with the former. You're better off being white than black and better off being Asian than white. Disagree with the latter. If it's "probably" because of racism, then Asian people have privilege over white people in the West because of systemic racism? Or is it different (for some reason) when comparing white/Asian American populations?

that’d be your best evidence of the existence of what the Left calls “structural racism” or “institutional racism”.

Would anybody care to examine said evidence and discuss it?

Employment in black communities (generally across the US) has gone down since the 1960s. Single parenthood rates have gone up. The statistics are all getting worse. So, logically, if it is a result of systemic racism, the US is now more racist than it was 60 years ago?

 

[Jabberwocky]

They do not function as examples.

I notice you do this quite a bit when confronted with other people’s arguments. You basically say “that is invalid as an argument” and move on apparently victorious without actually providing a counter argument. It’s an interesting tactic often deployed by our politicians during Question Time. It doesn’t help the advancement of knowledge much though.

Employment in black communities (generally across the US) has gone down since the 1960s. Single parenthood rates have gone up.

There you go. You have just supported my argument, for which I am very grateful. Inter generational social mobility in black communities has declined. What you are trying to do, but not achieving, is link that decline to increasing single parenthood in black communities with what I suspect is a subtle moral slur against black people.

Even is there was a direct correlation between single parenthood and declining inter- generational education/income then ‘blackness’ is not necessarily the ultimate cause. As with all wicked problems there are all kinds of possible intervening variables. For example religious/moral prejudice against single mothers, the inability to secure affordable child care, the overpolicing and over-incarceration of black men, the list could go on and on and any decent social scientist trying to explain this would at least note the possibility of these things and propose them as future research with a humble caveat on his or her own interim findings.

So, logically, if it is a result of systemic racism, the US is now more racist than it was 60 years ago?

You can’t compare the 1960s definition of racism so directly with the 2021 definition for a number of reasons. The main one being that racism and our understanding of it has progressed enormously in this time. At the same time racist practices have shifted from being overt to covert. Now, you might want to argue that America is less violently racist in 2021. But others would argue that America is more insidiously racist. Whether the overall condition of black Americans is better or worse now or then depends on your definition on what you are measuring . Racism is a very polysemic word. Like art. Or play. It’s meaning shifts with context and the intent of the speaker.

 

[JessFR]

I’m beginning to think people actually get off on being the victim. There has to be a dopamine rush, or some sort of payoff. My guess is it’s something similar to what the people on Reddit that over feed their pets for upvotes get

Yeah I've thought that for a while. I mean I'm constantly hearing endless cries of "we are being oppressed the whole world's against us the media's against us the courts are against us, the elections rigged, the systems rigged, the government other than the white house is against us and rigged" from people who for most of the last 4 years had their choice of president in office.

If that's not a victim complex I dunno what is.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I notice you do this quite a bit when confronted with other people’s arguments. You basically say “that is invalid as an argument” and move on apparently victorious without actually providing a counter argument. It’s an interesting tactic often deployed by our politicians during Question Time. It doesn’t help the advancement of knowledge much though.

I don't think so. I've already explained why they don't function as examples. Perhaps sometimes I don't offer an explanation, but I do have a life outside of this website. If anyone requests an explanation (for anything) I pretty much always respond.

In this case: I responded in detail to the original billionaire argument (@JessFR bailed, I didn't...) and I responded to the president argument even though it is basically the same.

To recap. Obama was president 5 years ago. You can't argue the US is racist now because slavery used to exist. That doesn't make sense. Using US presidents / vice presidents as an example might have made sense before Obama, but it doesn't make sense now. As for the billionaire thing, there are very few billionaires in Africa.

There you go. You have just supported my argument, for which I am very grateful. Inter generational social mobility in black communities has declined. What you are trying to do, but not achieving, is link that decline to increasing single parenthood in black communities with what I suspect is a subtle moral slur against black people.

I would appreciate it (in reference to the bold bit) if you don't make personal comments. It hasn't declined. It has gone significantly backwards. Look, perhaps I have a blind spot with race. It is not intentional. Would appreciate it if you don't call me a racist. As for the statistical argument, I'm not trying to link the decline. It is well documented, in the US and many other countries. See: Thomas Sowell and others.

then ‘blackness’ is not necessarily the ultimate cause.

Obviously it isn't the cause. What? I've said all the way through this thread that this has nothing to do with race and we should stop talking about race and attributing everything to the colour of people's skin.

Even is there was a direct correlation between single parenthood and declining inter- generational education/income then ‘blackness’ is not necessarily the ultimate cause. As with all wicked problems there are all kinds of possible intervening variables. For example religious/moral prejudice against single mothers, the inability to secure affordable child care, the overpolicing and over-incarceration of black men, the list could go on and on and any decent social scientist trying to explain this would at least note the possibility of these things and propose them as future research with a humble caveat on his or her own interim findings.

The welfare system fucked up black communities in the US. It is well documented. Single parenthood rates in the 1960s in black communities were very low. Now, they are very high. The question remains as to why. You have no alternative explanation that makes any sense.

You can’t compare the 1960s definition of racism so directly with the 2021 definition for a number of reasons.

I didn't compare definitions of racism. I made an observation that things are getting worse in the US for black communities, not better. If this is due to systemic racism, the US must be getting more racist... at least in some way.