cduggles
Bluelight Crew
As I stated, incompetence is decided by a group of people, all of whom are politically appointed or elected. It’s actually an interesting process.
Election 2020 The Final Countdown v. Nov. 3rd
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BK38
Bluelight Crew
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Disagree on both the Muslim ban and the wall re Obama. Source?
birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
BK38 said:
Obama Administration Helped Make Trump’s Muslim Travel Ban Possible
While Trump’s ban provided a moment of clarity to many on the left, they widely ignore Obama’s record on foreign policy and immigration.
"In December 2015, Obama signed into law the Visa Waiver Improvement Program and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act, which designated Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia as areas of concern. An attorney with the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, Yolanda Rondon, criticized the act for “blatant profiling on its face. Only nationals of particular countries regardless of whether they have traveled to a terrorist support country or not, have to meet additional requirements they would not otherwise have to go through if they were not Arab. It is premised on the unreliable assumption that Arabs are more prone to terrorism and to commit terrorist acts, and further perpetuates stereotypes that Arabs are terrorists.”
Mexico–United States barrier - Wikipedia
birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
So the "Muslim ban" (had nothing to do with Islam as far as I'm concerned since many Islamic countries were not included in the list, this was just another attempt to label Trump a racist) affected the exact same countries as Obama's "Visa Waiver Improvement Program and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act". Yet nobody in the media or anybody I've ever encountered claimed the Obama administration was racist. The difference between the two was Obama's still allowed travel and Trump's outright banned it for 90 days. Perhaps "practically identical" is a stretch, but they certainly overlap considerably. Surely you can't deny that?
As for the wall being erected during Obama and Bush's administration, the construction began during Bush and was completed while Obama was in office. He didn't have to complete it. If you re-read what I said, I don't see how you can disagree with me on this one... but I fully expect you to tell me that Obama's "Visa Waiver Improvement Program and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act" is completely removed from Trump's "Muslim Ban". I don't expect this because of any personal judgement. Perhaps you will surprise me. It is simply the reaction I always receive when I compare the two.
The previous republican administration (Bush Jr.) started the idea of constructing a wall. As I said earlier, I'm not sure what separates Trump policy-wise from typical republicans and you haven't shed any light on anything yet that convinces me otherwise.
edit: Looking into it further, I've discovered that the idea of border walls actually dates back over 100 years... and there were walls constructed during both George Bush Sr.'s administration and Bill Clinton's.
"President George H. W. Bush approved the initial 14 miles of fencing along the San Diego–Tijuana border.[15] Construction began on this section in 1990, and was complete by 1993.[16] Further barriers were built from 1994 under the presidency of Bill Clinton as part of three larger operations to taper transportation of illegal drugs manufactured in Latin America and immigration: Operation Gatekeeper in California, Operation Hold-the-Line[17] in Texas, and Operation Safeguard[18] in Arizona. Clinton signed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, which authorized further barriers and the reinforcement of Bush's fence. The majority of the border barriers built in the 1990s were made out of leftover helicopter landing mats from the Vietnam War." - wikipedia
Do you still disagree?
As for the wall being erected during Obama and Bush's administration, the construction began during Bush and was completed while Obama was in office. He didn't have to complete it. If you re-read what I said, I don't see how you can disagree with me on this one... but I fully expect you to tell me that Obama's "Visa Waiver Improvement Program and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act" is completely removed from Trump's "Muslim Ban". I don't expect this because of any personal judgement. Perhaps you will surprise me. It is simply the reaction I always receive when I compare the two.
The previous republican administration (Bush Jr.) started the idea of constructing a wall. As I said earlier, I'm not sure what separates Trump policy-wise from typical republicans and you haven't shed any light on anything yet that convinces me otherwise.
edit: Looking into it further, I've discovered that the idea of border walls actually dates back over 100 years... and there were walls constructed during both George Bush Sr.'s administration and Bill Clinton's.
"President George H. W. Bush approved the initial 14 miles of fencing along the San Diego–Tijuana border.[15] Construction began on this section in 1990, and was complete by 1993.[16] Further barriers were built from 1994 under the presidency of Bill Clinton as part of three larger operations to taper transportation of illegal drugs manufactured in Latin America and immigration: Operation Gatekeeper in California, Operation Hold-the-Line[17] in Texas, and Operation Safeguard[18] in Arizona. Clinton signed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, which authorized further barriers and the reinforcement of Bush's fence. The majority of the border barriers built in the 1990s were made out of leftover helicopter landing mats from the Vietnam War." - wikipedia
Do you still disagree?
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birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
Finally, I will attempt to explain to you why I would have voted for Trump in 2016. I'm hesitant to do this because the climate here seems to be pretty far left for the most part. I lean right but I exist within left-wing social circles. I have learnt the hard way to keep my mouth shut when it comes to politics which is frustrating because I am somebody that enjoys a healthy political discussion.
I don't think the idea of constructing walls or fences along the Mexican border is crazy. I think Biden promising to give 11 million illegal immigrants citizenship is crazier. As Trump said it sets a very dangerous precedent.
I also don't think heavily restricting traffic from certain countries is crazy and neither did Obama. I think it's crazier to be so afraid of being "racist" that you let your guard down and your countrymen suffer as a result. I don't know how many terrorist attacks need to occur before people wake up. Was 9/11 insufficient?
I'm super hesitant to say this next bit but I will anyway. Black Lives Matter is not grounded in statistical reality. I have attempted to explain this to many people on the left, but people don't listen. They just get upset. I'm happy to explain it to you if I must but (after failing to convince anyone else) I don't think I'm going to convince you either. Again, no personal judgement. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and map it out for you if you insist. But please be open minded and don't call me racist because it requires considerable effort to explain it sufficiently and I've been burned before.
You might wonder what Black Lives Matter has to do with Trump's campaign policies. It doesn't really. It is just an example of something I find deeply troubling about today's political climate.
I don't like AOC and I don't like Greta Thunberg. I don't know why we have to keep hearing about LGBT all the time even though I'm part of that acronym. In New Zealand ten percent of our parliament is now gay. The Labour party was advertising this as some kind of milestone. Personally, I don't care at all about the sexual orientation of my politicians. If they are suited for the job that's great. Identity politics is meaningless to me.
The reason people voted for Trump in 2016 and again in 2020 is because a lot of us are fed up with this bizarre far-left doctrine being forced down our throats.
Islam is protected but Christianity is fair game. Look at what's happening in France with Macron and the decapitations over a cartoon. I could shit on the Christian church in public but if I say anything bad about Islam I'm Islamophobic whatever the hell that means. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Politicians and celebrities have become increasingly controlled by the far-left all over the so-called "progressive" world. It's a witch hunt out there. If you say the wrong thing, you commit career suicide. Apu was removed from the Simpsons, but Borat 2 is embraced by lefties because it is anti-Trump despite being more racist than anything Trump has ever said or done.
In 2016, Trump was like a being from another planet. All throughout his presidency, despite being a lunatic, he never buckled under this pressure to be PC. Right to the end, he steadfastly remained utterly indifferent to what he should and should not say. This (to me) is both a good and a bad thing. The reason I probably wouldn't have voted for him in 2020 is the bad had long since outweighed the good.
I hope that clears it up.
I don't think the idea of constructing walls or fences along the Mexican border is crazy. I think Biden promising to give 11 million illegal immigrants citizenship is crazier. As Trump said it sets a very dangerous precedent.
I also don't think heavily restricting traffic from certain countries is crazy and neither did Obama. I think it's crazier to be so afraid of being "racist" that you let your guard down and your countrymen suffer as a result. I don't know how many terrorist attacks need to occur before people wake up. Was 9/11 insufficient?
I'm super hesitant to say this next bit but I will anyway. Black Lives Matter is not grounded in statistical reality. I have attempted to explain this to many people on the left, but people don't listen. They just get upset. I'm happy to explain it to you if I must but (after failing to convince anyone else) I don't think I'm going to convince you either. Again, no personal judgement. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and map it out for you if you insist. But please be open minded and don't call me racist because it requires considerable effort to explain it sufficiently and I've been burned before.
You might wonder what Black Lives Matter has to do with Trump's campaign policies. It doesn't really. It is just an example of something I find deeply troubling about today's political climate.
I don't like AOC and I don't like Greta Thunberg. I don't know why we have to keep hearing about LGBT all the time even though I'm part of that acronym. In New Zealand ten percent of our parliament is now gay. The Labour party was advertising this as some kind of milestone. Personally, I don't care at all about the sexual orientation of my politicians. If they are suited for the job that's great. Identity politics is meaningless to me.
The reason people voted for Trump in 2016 and again in 2020 is because a lot of us are fed up with this bizarre far-left doctrine being forced down our throats.
Islam is protected but Christianity is fair game. Look at what's happening in France with Macron and the decapitations over a cartoon. I could shit on the Christian church in public but if I say anything bad about Islam I'm Islamophobic whatever the hell that means. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Politicians and celebrities have become increasingly controlled by the far-left all over the so-called "progressive" world. It's a witch hunt out there. If you say the wrong thing, you commit career suicide. Apu was removed from the Simpsons, but Borat 2 is embraced by lefties because it is anti-Trump despite being more racist than anything Trump has ever said or done.
In 2016, Trump was like a being from another planet. All throughout his presidency, despite being a lunatic, he never buckled under this pressure to be PC. Right to the end, he steadfastly remained utterly indifferent to what he should and should not say. This (to me) is both a good and a bad thing. The reason I probably wouldn't have voted for him in 2020 is the bad had long since outweighed the good.
I hope that clears it up.
w01fg4ng
Bluelighter
Hypotheticals are fun and all but at the end of the day the hamster wheel gets squeeky.
BK38
Bluelight Crew
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Thank you for your carefully considered long-form answer. I probably lean mod-left and there are elements of what you’ve written that I agree with. I like a good debate as much as the next person and I’ll never revert to ad hominem attacks or simple name calling as it generally lacks nuance and ultimately doesn’t accomplish anything. I have some right-wing friends too and we keep it civil or we literally have it as an off limits topic for those friends with whom I can’t have a civil discussion. Anyhow, I will get back to you when I have some time with my sentiments - one carefully considered answer deserves another. So thanks for taking the time and I will pay you the same courtesy when I have a minute.
w01fg4ng
Bluelighter
Finally took my sign down last night.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
What Islamic terrorist attacks have happened on American soil since 9/11? The only terrorism events in America recently that come to mind are by angry white Americans killing Mexicans or Muslims.
I do, however, agree with you that we should not let everybody in. But I struggle between what I feel is our duty as a wealthy, prosperous nation, to help refugees from cartel violence (that we largely caused via the war on drugs that we led the whole world into). The waiting list for central American people who do not have family or a job already lined up with references is absurd, like 15+ years usually. I don't think the solution is to demonize them to the point that "patriots" commit mass shooting and half of America is terrified of scary "caravans" of refugees who obviously are actually mostly made up of pedophiles, rapists, criminals, and terrorists.
That is my main gripe with Trump's stance on immigrants. Obama may have tried to enforce immigration compliance, but he didn't demonize them and drum up hatred and bigotry about them. Trump essentially empowered his base to feel justified in their bigotry. He used them as a scapegoat for why peoples' quality of life has slowly decreased over the years, directing their attention away from the real cause, which is reckless privatization of every institution and out of control corporate greed.
4meSM
Bluelighter
I think it's useful to remember that most things are not black and white.
It's good to consider other points of view as well, and don't automatically assume that anyone who doesn't fully agree with you and/or voted for the other side is evil/ignorant/racist/brainwashed etc...
Well, everyone is kind of brainwashed to a degree but I think my point is still valid.
I know we're social beings and most people's emotions are pretty high right now (on both sides), but we should all take a breath and try to look at the bigger picture. Just don't be consumed by the tribal mentality, let's try to think for ourselves.
It's ok to celebrate if you want, nothing wrong with that. But just because Trump appears to have lost doesn't mean every major issue is going to be solved and that the world is now "saved".
It's good to consider other points of view as well, and don't automatically assume that anyone who doesn't fully agree with you and/or voted for the other side is evil/ignorant/racist/brainwashed etc...
Well, everyone is kind of brainwashed to a degree but I think my point is still valid.
I know we're social beings and most people's emotions are pretty high right now (on both sides), but we should all take a breath and try to look at the bigger picture. Just don't be consumed by the tribal mentality, let's try to think for ourselves.
It's ok to celebrate if you want, nothing wrong with that. But just because Trump appears to have lost doesn't mean every major issue is going to be solved and that the world is now "saved".
novaveritas
Bluelighter
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try these few examples of islamist terrorism on US soil since 9/11
Fort Hood, then Boston Marathon 2013 then San Bernadino 2015. 14 very dead people.
maybe the Orlando nightclub shootings were islamist? can't remember
Like the 9/11 crews the operatives were in the USA legally.
Islamists hate the USA for its freedoms, not because of US foreign policy raining democracy and freedom hellfires on random brown people, thats for sure, 100%, CNN said so.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah no doubt about the hate being our fault, who can blame them? We have bombed them to shit for decades in order to steal their most valuable natural resource.
thegreenhand
Bluelight Crew
I’m just happy that Biden won so that now I can criticize him without inadvertently supporting trump. People seem to think that criticizing a politician on one side means supporting the other. And with what was at stake (my best friend was at risk of being deported due to the immigration chaos trump created) i couldn’t risk it.
biden is a buffoon no doubt but he has some compassion at least
biden is a buffoon no doubt but he has some compassion at least
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah and he'll push some of the Democrat positions, which I tend to agree with more than the Republican positions. Hardly an ideal scenario (if they had let Bernie be the candidate I would be excited right now), but better than Trump indeed.
birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
Xorkoth said:
I didn't say any major attacks had happened on American soil since 9/11 (there have been quite a few minor ones) but there have certainly been a lot of terrorist attacks in countries that have taken in massive amounts of refugees from certain countries... and you can't conveniently write that off as they stole their oil.
They are cutting people's heads off in France because of cartoons.
Beyond terrorism and Islam though, there is a lot of violence and crime being committed by refugees that claim asylum from certain countries. This isn't due to Islam or any religious ideology. It is due to the fact that people come from different worlds. If you're brought up in a place like Sudan and you suddenly move to a cushy suburb somewhere in the first world, there's a cultural divide that can be problematic.
Islamic terrorist attacks are on the rise over the past decade. In 2015 there were over 2,500 deaths from Islamic terrorist attacks. It is just a matter of time before another epic tragedy happens on American soil if precautions aren't taken. This is why every US administration since 9/11 has taken precautions (to some extent) like vetting people coming in from certain countries and spending extraordinary amounts of money running anti-terrorist measures.
There have been many terrorist plots the US government has interrupted before they came to fruition. As @novaveritas said, there's also the Boston bombing. Plus there was an attack on police officers on October 23, 2014. Fortunately nobody was killed, but the police officers were seriously injured. Two people died on May 3rd, 2015 at a 'Draw Muhammad' cartoon art exhibit in Texas. There was another incident in Chattanooga that killed 5 people on July 16th. Then in December that year the San Bernarndino killing as @novaveritas said. Fast forward to June 12, 2016 to the shooting in Florida that killed 49 people. Then in September, the bombings in New York and New Jersey. Then on November 28 there was the Ohio State University attack. Trump's "Muslim Ban" came into play in January 2017. Since then there has only been one attempted attack on the 31st of October 2017. Could well be a coincidence. I don't know.
Xorkoth said:
Everything isn't your fault.
Let's assume it is your fault though. It wasn't Trump that bombed them. It was Bush. Then Obama introduced the drone wars resulting in the death of hundreds of innocent citizens. The Trump administration has been the least aggressive towards Islamic nations this century. Perhaps that's another contributing factor to the decline in Islamic terrorist attacks on American soil since the Obama administration?
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Buzz Lightbeer
Bluelight Crew
I don't know about this man, the fact that there seems to be way too much room for interpretation and shady figures to arise in Islam might has got something to do with it too.
American bombs don't explain countless terrorist attacks (or groups) all over the world, quite large parts of the Muslim world just hate 'infedels'
But off topic.... kinda relevant though with all these terrorist groups going around beheading children in Africa
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I never said Trump bombed them, I was just saying that Trump used an existing tension to drum up support through fear and hatred. I agree that one way in which he did a good job was in his lack of foreign aggression.
birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
Xorkoth said:
I know you didn't say that. I was just bringing the discussion back into the context of Trump because that's what we started talking about.
Xorkoth said:
Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate a bit on that?
Deru
Bluelight Crew
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I think Trump was too self-destructive for his own good, his vitriol and gaslighting, and his complete obsession with not alienating his loyal base, completely over shadowed the positive of his presidency. Although, I can’t go as far as to say if Trump was a better human being then that would have even helped, because if you change one thing about a person, typically it will ultimately affect the whole of who someone is. Some of his accomplishments are probably, ultimately, in some way shape or form, tied to the same traits that became his downfall.
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