Charles Manson and the Dire End

[ovenbakedskittles]

What are your guys thoughts on Charlie Manson?

Is he this crazy mass murdering killer to you?? Or a very misunderstood person who was crucified by the media? Or both or neither?

I personally think there’s more to it than the average person perceives it to be. It’s tricky to be objective and logical and clear minded when the crime is so horrific and brutal and bizarre and plays on people’s emotions where there’s so much anger and sadness and grief and frustration and hatred and wishing death upon people who have brought death into your life.

It’s obvious that murder is a very terrible thing that causes a lot of sadness and makes people grieve for the rest of their lives but at the same time I feel it is important to try and look at the situation more objectively and have a perspective on it that is absent of emotion or judgement or criticism towards the actions of these people and the suffering that the victims went through. And i understand that for the family’s that’s pretty much out of the question but I’m talking more about the people who have no connection to the murders or the victims and are just trying to learn about what happened. But even for those people it’s hard to regulate your tendency for judgement or emotion when you grow up in a society where you are taught that if you don’t feel hatred or anger towards murderers or people like that then that makes you a bad or questionable person in some way as if you are a murderer yourself. In other words I feel like a lot of people feel pressured to have a certain opinion about these kinds of things or else they feel like they will be excluded from the social group but that’s kind of a separate issue because people are not usually aware that this is happening to them and they are under the impression that these extreme emotional reactions when they come across something like the charles Manson case is genuine.

But I think it would really benefit society as a whole to really try and understand the reason of why these kinds of things happen and to get to the root of the cause and also to try our best to give a genuine effort to understand the minds and the thoughts and the beliefs of manson and his followers with compassion and understanding and without criticism and judgement. This will make it easier for us to figure out why that happened and how we can resolve those kinds of issues in more logical and rational and enlightened ways than just throwing them in jail or killing them.

I am not trying to defend them because at the end of the day theyre responsible for their own actions and they have to pay the consequences but that doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve empathy or compassion or understanding.

People don’t want to believe certain things just out of fear and insecurity. Manson had a lot of valuable and important things to say but because people view him as a serial killing cult leader it goes right over peoples heads and they think everything he says is a lie or just him being crazy which is understandable but at the same time unfortunate. Not just for Manson but for anybody who is seen as crazy.

And to be fair I know that I wouldn’t be writing this if he was involved in a murder of one of my family members or something. I would be just as angry and sad and hurt as the families of those who were killed but at the same time there are so many aspects to the story that are so interesting and worth doing some thinking about and worth looking in to.

My opinion, probly not a common one, I think Manson was in fact some sort of enlightened person that knew a lot of truths to the universe and to life and to reality. All convicts and street people have at least some sort of insight into a world that average everyday people don’t have access to and as a result they live in ignorance to this larger world that the criminals are aware of that encapsulates the world that we think is normal and all there is.

But I think with Manson it was on another level to where he was actually awakening psychic abilities within himself by learning all this information about people and their behaviors and their psychology and about his own psychology and also about different facets of the government or the way society functions and what people consider normal as opposed to what he considered normal and learning all these things about certain religions and ideologies. He was just living in a state of authenticity where he express his true self and looked for answers any where he could and people aren’t used to that. And what can be perceived as brainwashing or influencing could have been just him being himself in his enlightened and authentic state to where people could see his power and if you happen to be a very vulnerable and susceptible person you get caught up in that energy in a negative way because they are not confident and strong enough within themselves and within their own mind and spirit to not let his existence affect them like that.

People who are enlightened and who know the truth about reality are always gonna be looked at or labeled as a cult leader because the society that they happened to be born into don’t understand their way of seeing things or they don’t understand what they are saying because what they are saying requires a higher level of awareness to understand and they have so much influence over people that this inability to understand these higher concepts that they are trying to convey to you starts to turn into fear and it’s at that point that they invoke negative connotations or derogatory words that they are trying to pass off as official terminology such as “cult” or “brainwash” or “mind control” or “satanist”.

He would complain himself that his so called followers didn’t understand the things he was trying to tell them at times so of course the general public will have an even harder time. and most people generally have a very narrow and limited view of the world So when someone comes along that doesn’t fit into that narrow way of seeing things or that agreed upon consensus of what is acceptable behavior they are labeled as crazy or as a cult leader.

It’s all fear based though. People confuse fear with logic and they think that putting people in jail or mental institutions or give them medication in their food is the logical thing to do. But in reality they are reinforcing this polarizing conflict of two people with complete opposite perspectives and reinforcing this narrative of I’m the good guy and you’re the bad guy and it raises the tensions even higher and eventually they are going to be raised so high that prisons won’t be enough mental institutions won’t be enough guns won’t be enough and they won’t know what to do at that point. They won’t be able to control them anymore. And they won’t have the authority that they cling onto for insecure reasons within themselves.

So I think there are a lot of misunderstandings about the type of person Manson was and what his role was in the murders and even though he may have been a violent person and has lived a life with violence all around him I think the fear of the people exaggerated things to make it into more than just about Sharon Tate and the people who were killed and it became more of a thing of how can we make this people look as crazy as possible?

They hated what he did but yet they gave him so much publicity all the way up to his death and they even made a documentary following his death. Not because they wanted to know his perspective but because they were aware of how much money that was making and they felt that it was the best move for their network or organization.

You cannot have a genuine understanding of someone’s thoughts and feelings with that type of setting and that type of environment or social structure where everything is connected by money or if your motive is to earn some kind of reward for it. And a lot of times the interviewer will focus on such trivial things and will completely ignore something Manson said that was completely profound and deep and has the potential to be very true.

But again it’s understandable given the severity of the crime. And some people might say that I’m brainwashed just by saying these things but again I feel like it’s something important that should be said because it offers different way of going about it instead of just thinking people like him just need to be punished and exiled from society.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

he was a MK ultra subject sent by the CIA with one purpose to murder people and inflame society against hippies

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

Manson never killed anyone, he sent a bunch of idiot stinking Hippie kids to do his filthy work.

He makes good music though.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

he was a MK ultra subject sent by the CIA with one purpose to murder people and inflame society against hippies

I had heard some things here and there about that but I don’t have enough information on it to make a solid opinion on it

But I wouldn’t be surprised if this was some sort of government conspiracy to take down the hippies.

But to be honest just off of the stuff I’ve heard I don’t believe that that was the case. It sounds good and it sounds interesting and like that would make sense but I don’t think it was like that.

I feel like after all of the stuf he has said against establishment and about government and authority I don’t think he would have cooperated too well and I feel like with all of the other stuff he has mentioned about his interactions with different people throughout his life and the people at the ranch I feel like he would have mentioned something about a whole program that’s dedicated to use him as a puppet to take down a whole movement unless they somehow did it without him knowing...

But that alzo wouldn’t be so hard to believe either.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

many people in prison's in the 1950s were inducted into mk ultra in return for lower setences and then put under extreme torture and had their minds shattered then released into the public like whitey buglar the mafia hitmen.

 

[Foreigner]

He was a psychopathic cult leader who used all of the classic brainwashing tactics to ensure loyalty while being a menace to society. What happened to Sharon Tate was not enlightened.

His use of LSD to manipulate followers was well documented. He selected young and vulnerable people who were easy to manipulate and who already felt alienated from the world somehow. Then when he taught them his credo, they would go out into the world and have that credo rejected by society, which would reaffirm their cult sense of togetherness. He also provided those young people with practical survival goods like shelter and food. This is all classic cult material.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

He was a psychopathic cult leader who used all of the classic brainwashing tactics to ensure loyalty while being a menace to society. What happened to Sharon Tate was not enlightened.

His use of LSD to manipulate followers was well documented. He selected young and vulnerable people who were easy to manipulate and who already felt alienated from the world somehow. Then when he taught them his credo, they would go out into the world and have that credo rejected by society, which would reaffirm their cult sense of togetherness. He also provided those young people with practical survival goods like shelter and food. This is all classic cult material.

Right I’m not saying his actions are justified or that everything about him is enlightened and holy I was more referring to his philosophies on life and reality and the way people act with eachother and about the environment and the way he carried himself with his confidence. And I feel like there were times that he was trying to get a certain message across but he doesn’t talk the way other people talk so the words come out different and it can confuse people and make people think he’s tripping.. and I’m not talking about the gibberish.

I just feel personally that it’s a matter of perspective. You can devise a whole system for categorizing what is considered “brainwashing/cult” behavior and what isn’t but all you’re really doing is finding similarities between completely different people who happen to exhibit similar behaviors but they are still different situations with their own unique circumstances and causes and perspectives. So you’re basically disregarding the “human” aspect of it and you’re more trying to put them in an categorized box of cult leader or psychopath as if they are just numbers on a piece of paper.

I don’t believe in those terms as actual terms that have any basis in objective reality. These terminologies are just inventions of mankind and are just ways to categorize people they don’t understand and to dehumanize so as to discredit them or make them seem like their opinion is not as important or as if the people who are categorizing them are somehow better humans than they are.

It might feel right to do that to a criminal and to selectively choose who you want to be compassionate and understanding for but eventually you gotta ask yourself what that way of thinking is gonna do later on down the line. If you keep treating people like animals then they are gonna continue to behave like animals and there will be no progress for the human species. Just perpetuating more conflict and power struggles and egos and insecurities and the people who you consider bad are just gonna try and find new and creative ways to get around the law instead of trying to correct their behavior which is what most people arrogantly expect to happen. Not only that but they will probably try to devise systems of their own to combat those of society and it’s gonna be too much of a force to handle because of the pre existing antagonizations that led up to that boiling point and motivated them more to use their mind to get around the laws and the regulations. If people keep thinking that prison and crazy houses and criticisms are the solution then you will end up with someone a lot worse then Charlie Manson one day because that person will learn from his mistakes and find out a more efficient and intelligent way to beat the system.

It’s more beneficial and more progressive to accept and allow and try to understand instead. As hard as that is..That’s the only way we will be able to “prevent” this kind of behavior and to steer society in a different direction so that we don’t end up going into war and destroying ourselves.

And it sucks that the kids got dragged I nto this but it’s like who is the victim and who is the perpetrator at that point? Someone who replied right now stated that Charlie was controlled by mk ultra:.. if that turns out to be true then the whole victim/perpetrator concept flies out the window and you basically have some weird bizarre cycle that torments people. You cannot quantify this on piece of paper and in courtrooms it’s a complicated situation. You say he controlled their minds with drugs as if they are victims but then when it comes to the actual killings people start wishing death upon them. It’s polarizing and there’s not just a clear cut answer like you and many others are making it seem. You rely on the terminologies too much and you use them so much in situations like these that you start to think they are real and that they actually help society identify the good from the bad or something.

 

[Foreigner]

Right I’m not saying his actions are justified or that everything about him is enlightened and holy I was more referring to his philosophies on life and reality and the way people act with eachother and about the environment and the way he carried himself with his confidence. And I feel like there were times that he was trying to get a certain message across but he doesn’t talk the way other people talk so the words come out different and it can confuse people and make people think he’s tripping.. and I’m not talking about the gibberish.

I just feel personally that it’s a matter of perspective. You can devise a whole system for categorizing what is considered “brainwashing/cult” behavior and what isn’t but all you’re really doing is finding similarities between completely different people who happen to exhibit similar behaviors but they are still different situations with their own unique circumstances and causes and perspectives. So you’re basically disregarding the “human” aspect of it and you’re more trying to put them in an categorized box of cult leader or psychopath as if they are just numbers on a piece of paper.

I don’t believe in those terms as actual terms that have any basis in objective reality. These terminologies are just inventions of mankind and are just ways to categorize people they don’t understand and to dehumanize so as to discredit them or make them seem like their opinion is not as important or as if the people who are categorizing them are somehow better humans than they are.

It might feel right to do that to a criminal and to selectively choose who you want to be compassionate and understanding for but eventually you gotta ask yourself what that way of thinking is gonna do later on down the line. If you keep treating people like animals then they are gonna continue to behave like animals and there will be no progress for the human species. Just perpetuating more conflict and power struggles and egos and insecurities and the people who you consider bad are just gonna try and find new and creative ways to get around the law instead of trying to correct their behavior which is what most people arrogantly expect to happen. Not only that but they will probably try to devise systems of their own to combat those of society and it’s gonna be too much of a force to handle because of the pre existing antagonizations that led up to that boiling point and motivated them more to use their mind to get around the laws and the regulations. If people keep thinking that prison and crazy houses and criticisms are the solution then you will end up with someone a lot worse then Charlie Manson one day because that person will learn from his mistakes and find out a more efficient and intelligent way to beat the system.

It’s more beneficial and more progressive to accept and allow and try to understand instead. As hard as that is..That’s the only way we will be able to “prevent” this kind of behavior and to steer society in a different direction so that we don’t end up going into war and destroying ourselves.

And it sucks that the kids got dragged I nto this but it’s like who is the victim and who is the perpetrator at that point? Someone who replied right now stated that Charlie was controlled by mk ultra:.. if that turns out to be true then the whole victim/perpetrator concept flies out the window and you basically have some weird bizarre cycle that torments people. You cannot quantify this on piece of paper and in courtrooms it’s a complicated situation. You say he controlled their minds with drugs as if they are victims but then when it comes to the actual killings people start wishing death upon them. It’s polarizing and there’s not just a clear cut answer like you and many others are making it seem. You rely on the terminologies too much and you use them so much in situations like these and you think they are real and that they actually help society identify the good from the bad or something.

I don't give middle ground to psychopathic killers. If they want their humanity considered, then they should act humane. Besides, you're wrong. There are objective criteria for examining the psychology and social dynamics of cults. It plays out over and over throughout human history. It is the very humanness of their experiences which reveal the underpinnings, and not something more grand than that. We knows this because in the labor camps and gulags of the 20th century, the same dynamics played out. The only difference is that it was through government fascists. We have a lot of retroactive experience based data on this, not just "gibberish" made up by academics.

I find nothing deep or probing about Manson's cosmology. He's pretty straightforward to peg and the only reason why he wasn't discovered before his rampage was because he was the first high profile cult leader of his kind in Hollywood who actually carried out his plans. In today's world the grooming behavior would be spotted and security agencies would be notified. That's how predictable it is. The national security framework is partially based upon it.

The way you write is as though "the system" is misrepresenting Manson and his ilk, and that "the system" is stuck on categorical dismissals. I highly recommend you read more into the literature on psychopathy and cult based mind control. There's a lot of good info out there. Humanity is complicated but is, in many ways, predictable, and Manson is not above that. Maybe you have an anti-establishment streak in you and that's why you empathize with the Manson clan, I don't know... but I don't find your appraisals very realistic.

 

[sewerslide.666mg]

i think they should of let him outside
in the prison yard even tho he was a wacko

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think Charlie was being Charlie. My best guess is he had some kind of contract, and all the LSD cult Scientology/federal lifer stuff, was Charlie for Charlie. That's my best guess from looking at his childhood and incarceration history. They definitely did not hit the wrong addresses, I'm sure Charlie promised somebody that his crew would follow his orders.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

I don't give middle ground to psychopathic killers. If they want their humanity considered, then they should act humane. Besides, you're wrong. There are objective criteria for examining the psychology and social dynamics of cults. It plays out over and over throughout human history. It is the very humanness of their experiences which reveal the underpinnings, and not something more grand than that. We knows this because in the labor camps and gulags of the 20th century, the same dynamics played out. The only difference is that it was through government fascists. We have a lot of retroactive experience based data on this, not just "gibberish" made up by academics.

I find nothing deep or probing about Manson's cosmology. He's pretty straightforward to peg and the only reason why he wasn't discovered before his rampage was because he was the first high profile cult leader of his kind in Hollywood who actually carried out his plans. In today's world the grooming behavior would be spotted and security agencies would be notified. That's how predictable it is. The national security framework is partially based upon it.

The way you write is as though "the system" is misrepresenting Manson and his ilk, and that "the system" is stuck on categorical dismissals. I highly recommend you read more into the literature on psychopathy and cult based mind control. There's a lot of good info out there. Humanity is complicated but is, in many ways, predictable, and Manson is not above that. Maybe you have an anti-establishment streak in you and that's why you empathize with the Manson clan, I don't know... but I don't find your appraisals very realistic.

I guess we just see it in a different way then. If you immerse yourself in the teachings of scientists and doctors and professors and exalted figures of skepticism and reductionist thinking and atheism, it can seem pretty convincing and you can take on their thought patterns and behaviors and their way of seeing things after you have become enthralled with their wit and their cleverness and their vocabulary and the ability to shut down Jesus freaks with witty remarks and criticisms.

They have just as much influence on you as Manson did on those kids and you don’t even know it. More so because they are an established part of the structure so it seems like they have your best interests at heart and they can present themselves as free thinkers and encourage people to think for themselves but yet they gave them selves to the colleges and the rest of the structured and ordered world that was set up for them by people who came before and put those thoughts in their heads before they put em into you.

I know that’s not a flattering comparison and I know you won’t agree with that but we are being influenced all the time by so many things without our awareness. And to deny that is lying to yourself and disowning the parts of yourself that you think are vulnerable or weak.

True knowledge comes from embodying your authentic self and that will give you so much confidence and motivation to learn things faster and to see the whole picture. You can’t do experiments on stuff like that you have to put in your own effort to exercise your own mind so you can see for yourself. Knowledge and wisdom are a result of that process. Otherwise you are just handing your mind over to a community that wants to make you feel like they have the answers and take advantage of your uncertainty and your insecurity and your fear and your inability to elevate yourself to a state of profound awareness of your environment and clarity of your mind. People are just too lazy and also scared to put in that work to realize the power of their minds so they just settle for what the academic people say and they submit to the peer pressure and they conform because they don’t want to be excluded from the social group and be seen as crazy.

If society fell and the end of the world came who would you depend on?? Theirs not gonna be no scientists or psychologists to help you with your problems. So it’s better to realize that power within yourself before you get dragged down with everyone else who thinks that they are nothing but a piece of meat that is supposed to follow large organizations.

And also by “gibberish” I was referring to Manson’s interviews where he occasionally talks gibberish.

But either way I will look into books and material like that because it sounds pretty interesting actually..

 

[Foreigner]

I guess we just see it in a different way then. If you immerse yourself in the teachings of scientists and doctors and professors and exalted figures of skepticism and reductionist thinking and atheism, it can seem pretty convincing and you can take on their thought patterns and behaviors and their way of seeing things after you have become enthralled with their wit and their cleverness and their vocabulary and the ability to shut down Jesus freaks with witty remarks and criticisms.

They have just as much influence on you as Manson did on those kids and you don’t even know it. More so because they are an established part of the structure so it seems like they have your best interests at heart and they can present themselves as free thinkers and encourage people to think for themselves but yet they gave them selves to the colleges and the rest of the structured and ordered world that was set up for them by people who came before and put those thoughts in their heads before they put em into you.

I know that’s not a flattering comparison and I know you won’t agree with that but we are being influenced all the time by so many things without our awareness. And to deny that is lying to yourself and disowning the parts of yourself that you think are vulnerable or weak.

True knowledge comes from embodying your authentic self and that will give you so much confidence and motivation to learn things faster and to see the whole picture. You can’t do experiments on stuff like that you have to put in your own effort to exercise your own mind so you can see for yourself. Knowledge and wisdom are a result of that process. Otherwise you are just handing your mind over to a community that wants to make you feel like they have the answers and take advantage of your uncertainty and your insecurity and your fear and your inability to elevate yourself to a state of profound awareness of your environment and clarity of your mind. People are just too lazy and also scared to put in that work to realize the power of their minds so they just settle for what the academic people say and they submit to the peer pressure and they conform because they don’t want to be excluded from the social group and be seen as crazy.

If society fell and the end of the world came who would you depend on?? Theirs not gonna be no scientists or psychologists to help you with your problems. So it’s better to realize that power within yourself before you get dragged down with everyone else who thinks that they are nothing but a piece of meat that is supposed to follow large organizations.

And also by “gibberish” I was referring to Manson’s interviews where he occasionally talks gibberish.

But either way I will look into books and material like that because it sounds pretty interesting actually..

I totally agree with you that community based influence is a thing. Sometimes we have choice in that, and sometimes we don't. I am a heavily non-rational thinker, partly influenced by my innate character, partly by all the drugs I did over the years, and partly by my community affiliations in my formative years. I am not above having my thoughts and opinions shaped by others. That said, I learn everything I can about everything and form my own opinions, to the point that my epistemology has become difficult to describe concisely. You're maybe presuming that because I bring up psychology that I am pro-psych, which I'm not. Their models have limits. However, what alternative is there? We have non-rational psychoanalytical methods (like religion), and we have the rational methods. Humanity has to try something to make sense of all this, and those systems have to have an authoritative bent otherwise we start talking about post-truth non-sense. Within that, I have a great degree of autonomy, even if outside influence renders it imperfect. So... no need to lecture me on the virtues of standing alone in inner resiliency. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Consider that Manson gave us a really valuable insight into cult psychology and also his unique brand of anti-establishmentarianism. I'm not saying his narrative and character are worthless. I'm saying that they are not that deep. There are other figures I'd rather invest more time and energy on, if we're going to go the route of propping people up. Perhaps the value we can extract from Manson's life, similar to all high profile killers, is that they see humanity in a unique and perhaps dark way that makes us uncomfortable, but is truthful. Manson's rampage spelled the end of a type of innocence for the United States, that such an evil could exist and it wasn't just a work of fiction. I watched the non-fiction film about Dahmer's upbringing this past summer. Disturbing and fascinating. We can glean a lot from these people... but I don't think they deserve veneration. They have a unique fixation that garners them expertise in their niche, but they aren't on an enlightened path.

 

[Brendan12]

People base their believes on what they see and know..

The only way to trick a trickster is to think more curiously than the other person..

Sum say the overman is Brendan Cassidy!

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

I totally agree with you that community based influence is a thing. Sometimes we have choice in that, and sometimes we don't. I am a heavily non-rational thinker, partly influenced by my innate character, partly by all the drugs I did over the years, and partly by my community affiliations in my formative years. I am not above having my thoughts and opinions shaped by others. That said, I learn everything I can about everything and form my own opinions, to the point that my epistemology has become difficult to describe concisely. You're maybe presuming that because I bring up psychology that I am pro-psych, which I'm not. Their models have limits. However, what alternative is there? We have non-rational psychoanalytical methods (like religion), and we have the rational methods. Humanity has to try something to make sense of all this, and those systems have to have an authoritative bent otherwise we start talking about post-truth non-sense. Within that, I have a great degree of autonomy, even if outside influence renders it imperfect. So... no need to lecture me on the virtues of standing alone in inner resiliency. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Consider that Manson gave us a really valuable insight into cult psychology and also his unique brand of anti-establishmentarianism. I'm not saying his narrative and character are worthless. I'm saying that they are not that deep. There are other figures I'd rather invest more time and energy on, if we're going to go the route of propping people up. Perhaps the value we can extract from Manson's life, similar to all high profile killers, is that they see humanity in a unique and perhaps dark way that makes us uncomfortable, but is truthful. Manson's rampage spelled the end of a type of innocence for the United States, that such an evil could exist and it wasn't just a work of fiction. I watched the non-fiction film about Dahmer's upbringing this past summer. Disturbing and fascinating. We can glean a lot from these people... but I don't think they deserve veneration. They have a unique fixation that garners them expertise in their niche, but they aren't on an enlightened path.

I see what you’re saying and I agree that “veneration” is probably not a right word to use for people who happen to do these things but I do believe they deserve some type of consideration to where they can feel that their environment or society they live in is not so against them and threatening to them or judgmental or so critical of their view. Because what do you expect when you put a kid in jail for 20 years.

I’m not trying to prop these people up or prop any one up really I’m trying to say we should see them as equals with their own unique capabilities and their own potential to use those capabilities to do great things that can help society in a profound way and try to understand them because that’s the quickest way to try and turn that behavior around for future generations. This happened 51 years ago! Serial killers are still running wild and quote on quote cult leaders are still preaching whatever ideas that they have. As a matter of fact I’m pretty sure it has become worse since then. I could be wrong but that’s what I think. How long will this go on before we realize we are not using the most efficient or the most progressive way of dealing with this? We can think of new and better ways to treat situations like this that is not so based on fear and terror and disgust and punishment. Or more so fear and insecurity and assumptions that they might do it again. Solutions that don’t fixate on the concept of what is considered “good” and what is considered “evil”.

And sure we can have an authoritative component to it unless authoritative is synonymous with punishment and also I think if you are put in a position of authority then you are acknowledge that you have more rights over someone else or you deserve more respect or something which contradicts the notion of equality and understanding someone’s perspective. but either way people abuse that power and people within the system of law and prisons have their own problems and traumas and insecurities that they don’t wanna deal with and they take it out on people like Charles Manson. Which makes an authoritative setting useless and is just an excuse for people to feel more superior or important than others while trying to give off an image of doing the right thing.

I don’t think these things that people like Charles Manson do are evil or bad. These people are products of their environment and slaves to their traumas and generational cycles. They are just trying to find connection and love like any of us but they don’t know how to do it in a way that is positive. They do it in roundabout ways that look evil and scary from your angle but really they are just little kids inside trying to get your attention. And you can say to yourself all day that they just need to correct their behavior and they should just act more humane and everything will be fine but if someone feels like they’re not being heard or understood to such an extreme extent that behavior is just natural for that to happen because they are human and humans have certain needs and you can’t arrogantly expect people to ignore those needs so they can go along with what you think is humane behavior. These behaviors need care and resolution and answers. Not judgement and condemnation and punishment.

This whole mass murdering business with the kids and Manson was not a wake up call to be more vigilant or to be more aggressive with the punishment methods. it’s a wake up call for us to elevate ourselves and elevate our society so that we don’t fall victim to people like that as well as a wake up call towards our own capacity to exercise compassion and generosity and understanding and perspective.

We are so disconnected as a society as far as emotionally and mentally. Serial killers and rapists and child molesters are a result of that. and the first step to correcting that starts with you and your own being. And I understand that you have put effort in your life towards being objective and I apologize if I have made any rash assumptions but the more you put off compassion and understanding and connection to the people who really need it, you’re going to see a lot more serial killers in a worse degree and behaviors that you didn’t even think were possible as I’m sure the people of the 60s felt about Manson.

And being able to perfect or become an expert in whatever you are passionate about or whatever your niche is the key to self empowerment which is something a lot of people don’t have which is why people get “brainwashed” as people say. And that is worth value and not meant to be something that is diminished because you feel it doesn’t align with what you think is important or good.

To be honest I don’t really know what niche means but I assume it means some kind of interest that they have.

 

[Gormur]

Manson never killed anyone, he sent a bunch of idiot stinking Hippie kids to do his filthy work.

He makes good music though.

I don't understand the fascination with serial killers. I guess the stories about Charles Manson and his cult were interesting from a criminal perspective, but I don't know how much of what happened is true so who cares? At least that's how I feel

People get excited about criminals who get away with heinous crimes for an extended period of time. That's all I see and there's nothing interesting about it to me

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

I don't understand the fascination with serial killers. I guess the stories about Charles Manson and his cult were interesting from a criminal perspective, but I don't know how much of what happened is true so who cares? At least that's how I feel

People get excited about criminals who get away with heinous crimes for an extended period of time. That's all I see and there's nothing interesting about it to me

I can only speak for myself but I don’t think it is merely the extended time that they happened to not be caught that fascinates people.

With charles Manson is a different situation that goes just beyond murder and time and I am personally fascinated by the psychological and spiritual implications and it has so many variables to it that happen to involve an actual celebrity being killed as opposed to random people as well as the descension of the hippie movement which was so powerful and was diminished severely by one major swoop of terror throughout the culture.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

Manson never killed anyone, he sent a bunch of idiot stinking Hippie kids to do his filthy work.

He makes good music though.

That is true

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

many people in prison's in the 1950s were inducted into mk ultra in return for lower setences and then put under extreme torture and had their minds shattered then released into the public like whitey buglar the mafia hitmen.

I don’t doubt that for a second but I still don’t believe that that is the full picture of what happened specifically with Manson. You can learn how to do the things that Manson did on your own with your mind without the help of government interference.

But that is still definitely a high possibility that it happened like that.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

I don't understand the fascination with serial killers. I guess the stories about Charles Manson and his cult were interesting from a criminal perspective, but I don't know how much of what happened is true so who cares? At least that's how I feel

People get excited about criminals who get away with heinous crimes for an extended period of time. That's all I see and there's nothing interesting about it to me

Learn about Aum Shinrikyo

 

[Jabberwocky]

I see what you’re saying and I agree that “veneration” is probably not a right word to use for people who happen to do these things but I do believe they deserve some type of consideration to where they can feel that their environment or society they live in is not so against them and threatening to them or judgmental or so critical of their view. Because what do you expect when you put a kid in jail for 20 years.

I’m not trying to prop these people up or prop any one up really I’m trying to say we should see them as equals with their own unique capabilities and their own potential to use those capabilities to do great things that can help society in a profound way and try to understand them because that’s the quickest way to try and turn that behavior around for future generations. This happened 51 years ago! Serial killers are still running wild and quote on quote cult leaders are still preaching whatever ideas that they have. As a matter of fact I’m pretty sure it has become worse since then. I could be wrong but that’s what I think. How long will this go on before we realize we are not using the most efficient or the most progressive way of dealing with this? We can think of new and better ways to treat situations like this that is not so based on fear and terror and disgust and punishment. Or more so fear and insecurity and assumptions that they might do it again. Solutions that don’t fixate on the concept of what is considered “good” and what is considered “evil”.

And sure we can have an authoritative component to it unless authoritative is synonymous with punishment and also I think if you are put in a position of authority then you are acknowledge that you have more rights over someone else or you deserve more respect or something which contradicts the notion of equality and understanding someone’s perspective. but either way people abuse that power and people within the system of law and prisons have their own problems and traumas and insecurities that they don’t wanna deal with and they take it out on people like Charles Manson. Which makes an authoritative setting useless and is just an excuse for people to feel more superior or important than others while trying to give off an image of doing the right thing.

I don’t think these things that people like Charles Manson do are evil or bad. These people are products of their environment and slaves to their traumas and generational cycles. They are just trying to find connection and love like any of us but they don’t know how to do it in a way that is positive. They do it in roundabout ways that look evil and scary from your angle but really they are just little kids inside trying to get your attention. And you can say to yourself all day that they just need to correct their behavior and they should just act more humane and everything will be fine but if someone feels like they’re not being heard or understood to such an extreme extent that behavior is just natural for that to happen because they are human and humans have certain needs and you can’t arrogantly expect people to ignore those needs so they can go along with what you think is humane behavior. These behaviors need care and resolution and answers. Not judgement and condemnation and punishment.

This whole mass murdering business with the kids and Manson was not a wake up call to be more vigilant or to be more aggressive with the punishment methods. it’s a wake up call for us to elevate ourselves and elevate our society so that we don’t fall victim to people like that as well as a wake up call towards our own capacity to exercise compassion and generosity and understanding and perspective.

We are so disconnected as a society as far as emotionally and mentally. Serial killers and rapists and child molesters are a result of that. and the first step to correcting that starts with you and your own being. And I understand that you have put effort in your life towards being objective and I apologize if I have made any rash assumptions but the more you put off compassion and understanding and connection to the people who really need it, you’re going to see a lot more serial killers in a worse degree and behaviors that you didn’t even think were possible as I’m sure the people of the 60s felt about Manson.

And being able to perfect or become an expert in whatever you are passionate about or whatever your niche is the key to self empowerment which is something a lot of people don’t have which is why people get “brainwashed” as people say. And that is worth value and not meant to be something that is diminished because you feel it doesn’t align with what you think is important or good.

To be honest I don’t really know what niche means but I assume it means some kind of interest that they have.

When you think about it, conception of an egg by a sperm is a 'violent' reaction that creates a new life. Place that creation in the middle of extraordinary poverty and trauma from war and family violence, and its probably a given that people like Charlie and his followers would 'go bad'. In a six degrees of separation world (more like 10 degrees now) it happens. After all we have crime statistics for a reason.