What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[indigoaura]

I was researching another topic, and I stumbled down a rabbit hole that may be relevant to our thread.

Specifically, I was researching Zinc deficiencies and how Zinc impacts hormone levels.

First, I read this, "Zinc also improves the stability of oxytocin, and the stabilization effect is correlated with the ability of the divalent metal to interact with oxytocin. Zinc is essential for the binding of oxytocin to its cellular receptor " (https://www.intechopen.com/books/nutritional-deficiency/zinc-deficiency).

That made me stop and ponder the implications of Zinc deficiency on the MDMA experience. So, I decided to see if there were additional possibly relevant connections between Zinc & neurochemistry.

That led me to this dense article:

Zinc in the Monoaminergic Theory of Depression: Its Relationship to Neural Plasticity

Preclinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that zinc possesses antidepressant properties and that it may augment the therapy with conventional, that is, monoamine-based, antidepressants. In this review we aim to discuss the role of zinc in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Admittedly, I have only scratched the surface of that article. However, there are potentially significant interactions. The article goes into detail about Zinc's role with SERT, DAT, and NET transporters as well as the entire serotonergic system. I had no idea that Zinc played such a tremendous role in brain functioning and depression.

If I am reading all of this correctly, it seems like Zinc deficiency could lead to improperly functioning oxytocin receptors as well as a sub-optimal serotonergic system.

Someone asked awhile back if all of the people who are experiencing MehDMA could have a common factor between them. What if that factor is Zinc deficiency?

 

[G_Chem]

I was researching another topic, and I stumbled down a rabbit hole that may be relevant to our thread.

Specifically, I was researching Zinc deficiencies and how Zinc impacts hormone levels.

First, I read this, "Zinc also improves the stability of oxytocin, and the stabilization effect is correlated with the ability of the divalent metal to interact with oxytocin. Zinc is essential for the binding of oxytocin to its cellular receptor " (https://www.intechopen.com/books/nutritional-deficiency/zinc-deficiency).

That made me stop and ponder the implications of Zinc deficiency on the MDMA experience. So, I decided to see if there were additional possibly relevant connections between Zinc & neurochemistry.

That led me to this dense article:

Zinc in the Monoaminergic Theory of Depression: Its Relationship to Neural Plasticity

Preclinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that zinc possesses antidepressant properties and that it may augment the therapy with conventional, that is, monoamine-based, antidepressants. In this review we aim to discuss the role of zinc in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Admittedly, I have only scratched the surface of that article. However, there are potentially significant interactions. The article goes into detail about Zinc's role with SERT, DAT, and NET transporters as well as the entire serotonergic system. I had no idea that Zinc played such a tremendous role in brain functioning and depression.

If I am reading all of this correctly, it seems like Zinc deficiency could lead to improperly functioning oxytocin receptors as well as a sub-optimal serotonergic system.

Someone asked awhile back if all of the people who are experiencing MehDMA could have a common factor between them. What if that factor is Zinc deficiency?

Well if that’s the case, I both supplement as well as try to eat a diet high in zinc for both hormonal and mood reasons. Too much makes me aggressive and angry but too little can have equally negative effects, so I’ve found a balance over time with it.

I used to eat oysters sometimes multiple times a week.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Well if that’s the case, I both supplement as well as try to eat a diet high in zinc for both hormonal and mood reasons. Too much makes me aggressive and angry but too little can have equally negative effects, so I’ve found a balance over time with it.

I used to eat oysters sometimes multiple times a week.

-GC

I have documented high estradiol, which is a sign of zinc deficiency due to how zinc deficiency impacts aromatase. I have not specifically had my zinc levels tested, but I am going to start supplementing with zinc and see what happens. I do not usually supplement zinc, because last time I tried, I had the aggression issue that you mentioned. However, my interest is officially piqued at this point.

 

[G_Chem]

I have documented high estradiol, which is a sign of zinc deficiency due to how zinc deficiency impacts aromatase. I have not specifically had my zinc levels tested, but I am going to start supplementing with zinc and see what happens. I do not usually supplement zinc, because last time I tried, I had the aggression issue that you mentioned. However, my interest is officially piqued at this point.

So I think me and you are similar in our sensitivity to supplements based on what I’ve heard you say before. When it comes to dietary zinc I can handle a lot more but as little as 5% DV of supplemented zinc I can feel, makes me sleepy often so take before bed. Don’t take it every day, try 2-3 times a week at first.

I use my body, how well I sleep and the aggression as indicators to whether I need more or less.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

So I think me and you are similar in our sensitivity to supplements based on what I’ve heard you say before. When it comes to dietary zinc I can handle a lot more but as little as 5% DV of supplemented zinc I can feel, makes me sleepy often so take before bed. Don’t take it every day, try 2-3 times a week at first.

I use my body, how well I sleep and the aggression as indicators to whether I need more or less.

-GC

I have to do the same thing. I will break supplements into pieces or only take a few times a week. It is hard when you are deficient in something though and need to get the levels up. I have low vitamin D, but it will make me angry too. I ordered a plant based zinc, and I hope I will tolerate that better.

 

[indigoaura]

Tried a different batch of product last night and mixed it with weed. Nothing to really report here or take up the thread with. Subpar results, and I think the product must have been a really low purity crystal, maybe more water than anything else. I have had much better meh. I thought the weed may have kicked things over into different territory, but it just made me super distracted and unfocused. I don't really see the benefit of the combo, honestly. I have pics of my pupils well into the experience and they are barely dilated at all.

I can post a highly cropped, BW image of my pupils if anyone thinks that would be beneficial data and would be safe to post.

 

[mrsmokeweed]

Keep ya eyes posted. There is fire molly and MDA, plus legit pressies available still domestically. It's not a zinc deficiency. Most of us have rolled like 1000 times haha. Give that brain a break and don't take anything that sounds too good to be true (260mg MDMA pill), cause it's too good to be true lol. Plus nobody needs 260mg or even 180mg mdma, the idea is laughable and if it's good shit you'll be puking for a hour, then rolling harder than you ever have before.

 

[mrsmokeweed]

I have to do the same thing. I will break supplements into pieces or only take a few times a week. It is hard when you are deficient in something though and need to get the levels up. I have low vitamin D, but it will make me angry too. I ordered a plant based zinc, and I hope I will tolerate that better.

Take ZMA

 

[indigoaura]

Take ZMA

Already taking ZMA as well as a raw, plant based, zinc.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying, if I remember correct your a bit old school yourself right? 90’s raver? I feel the very fact this behavior is fading away along with other loving/giving behaviors which show an overall change in product for the mass of users. That’s the reason I still hang in this thread, I remember a time when things were very different. I refuse to put it down cultural changes or whatever.

You telling me that story reminds me of a time when people would very often share pills, even if they could barely afford it or weren’t making money, just so everyone was having a good time.

I remember folks giving away all their pills rolling only to wake up the next day with that kinda bummed but still happy they at least made everyone’s night lol.

Idk maybe it’s all the K people be sniffing these days too.. Don’t get me wrong I like it, but it’s definitely ruined things a bit. Let’s put it this way, in my area we could probably do with 1/10th or less the total amount of K circulating to keep things at a level that’s not “excessive.”

I then wonder, is K big now because MDMA has changed? It was right when our local producer shut down of the very magic pills that K began to grow in popularity. Probably coincidence but worth thinking about.. Thankfully my connections stayed good but I can see a lot less overall love and connection than before when these pills were everywhere .

-GC

I was never into MDA, MDMA, disassociative drugs, or research chemicals but things have definitely changed. I remember in the 1990s when there was so much highly dosed LSD people were buying it in bulk or even just smaller amounts like 10 windowpanes/geltabs, or 10 hits of blotter acid and giving it away for free or very little money.

Research chemicals and the 'dark web' have changed all of this. Yes people can look up information about drugs a lot easier-I remember before the Internet and before hyperreal, Lycaeum, and erowid having to get books out of public and university libraries about drugs, or buying them in bookstores-anyone can now go on the dark web or even on legit websites and claim that a research chemical that is not LSD at all, is acid and people buy it up, and have it delivered worldwide.

 

[indigoaura]

I wanted to add this little anecdote about my recent "meh" experience on Saturday night. I have been really into this one song, and had been looking forward to listening to it during the height of the experience. When I played the song while "rolling," I actively disliked the song. I mean, really could not stand it and wanted it to end. So bizarre, because I usually love the song and expected it to be amazing. It is that same feeling as what is felt towards other people as well, "I wish this distraction would stop." Everything is a bother.

I still strive to find the right way to describe the state other than what it lacks. It kind of feels like being half asleep in the sense that there are all of these external forces that are pulling at you, but you just want to drift back into "slumber," and you feel that same keen irritation at being disturbed. Another element similar to a hypnagogic state is the forgetfulness that can occur, like a dream that you can't quite recall. In many ways, this is what is so jarringly different. One of the most notable aspects of the MDMA experience is that it placed you very firmly in the present moment, and you noticed all the things about the present moment that you would typically ignore: the air, your skin, your breath, the smell of the earth, the softness of cotton, the taste of water. MDMA left you so within the present moment that deep truths were revealed within that ever expanding now. Connections were made with strangers because there was no fear of what might happen next or what had happened before. The meh experience is outside of the present moment. All of the sensory distractions of "now," seem like rude distractions.

 

[Le Junk]

I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the older people in the thread, but yes something else changed, your body over the course of 10 years (and nearly 20 years since you had the super magic experiences). I imagine the set and settings of your experiences have also changed during those time periods. I do not think it is a coincidence that many in this thread started rolling ~20 years ago, and that they also seem to get the least positive effects from mehDMA (if any) while having the lowest success rates for finding anything they consider magic.

Anyway, I can't believe I wasted my time hunting Reddit experience reports out of the dross when the true repository has been here all along: https://erowid.org/experiences/exp....A_RA&NewSort=PDD&Start=0&ShowViews=0&Cellar=0
This is the Erowid experience vault for first time MDMA experiences, sorted to show the most recent. I encourage everyone to pick a dozen from the past two years and give them a read before deciding that most of the MDMA in the world has turned to shit and that kids these days couldn't possibly understand what real magic felt like.

Edit: I didn't realize how far behind Erowid was on publishing reports, many of those were written years ago but only very recently published. You can work around this using Google, with the string:
site:Erowid.org "Exp Year: 2019" "MDMA (3)" "First Times"
Replace 2019 with whatever year you want to see reports from. There aren't that many from recent years but there are certainly some glowing ones.

But that’s where you’re incorrect. I’m the thread starter and if you read my original post, you will see that I still have access to the “magic”. And I’ve been rolling since the mid-80’s. Absolutely nothing has changed with these magic capsules I get. However, everything else out there nowadays (pills, crystals etc) that all lab test as pure MDMA are simply awful. It is not, I repeat, NOT set or setting. You have to quit giving that excuse to this modern day pure MDMA crap. It’s not just old users versus new users versus he said versus she said. There is an actual visual marker giveaway present in today’s crap versus the magic. Pupil dilation. All street ecstasy up until 2009 and the magic capsules I still have access to will completely dilate your pupils. And when I say dilate, I don’t mean slightly or 80%, I mean 99.5% of your eyeball is black pupil. There is no exception to this rule. And there never was until 2010. If the color of your eyes is not totally gone and your pupils aren’t completely black, you’re doing modern day MDMA junk I can assure you. Okay, back to the discussion...

 

[Negi]

The "modern" MDMA that kids these days are getting still gives strongly dilated pupils though: https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/search/?q=MDMA&sort=new&restrict_sr=on

If people here could post photos of the true and holy pupil dilation, it would be helpful. It's important to note that when you are taking a long look at a close up photo (especially one with a flash), you can see much better and with more detail that you could while glancing at someone in a dark rave.

 

[G_Chem]

I wanted to add this little anecdote about my recent "meh" experience on Saturday night. I have been really into this one song, and had been looking forward to listening to it during the height of the experience. When I played the song while "rolling," I actively disliked the song. I mean, really could not stand it and wanted it to end. So bizarre, because I usually love the song and expected it to be amazing. It is that same feeling as what is felt towards other people as well, "I wish this distraction would stop." Everything is a bother.

I still strive to find the right way to describe the state other than what it lacks. It kind of feels like being half asleep in the sense that there are all of these external forces that are pulling at you, but you just want to drift back into "slumber," and you feel that same keen irritation at being disturbed. Another element similar to a hypnagogic state is the forgetfulness that can occur, like a dream that you can't quite recall. In many ways, this is what is so jarringly different. One of the most notable aspects of the MDMA experience is that it placed you very firmly in the present moment, and you noticed all the things about the present moment that you would typically ignore: the air, your skin, your breath, the smell of the earth, the softness of cotton, the taste of water. MDMA left you so within the present moment that deep truths were revealed within that ever expanding now. Connections were made with strangers because there was no fear of what might happen next or what had happened before. The meh experience is outside of the present moment. All of the sensory distractions of "now," seem like rude distractions.

This ties in perfectly with the reports of “mongy/sedating” MDMA, and why we see lots of U.K. youth with eyes half open as they roll.

Compare those pics to the 90’s where everyone’s eyes are wide open or at least normal, not droopy as hell.

I doubt much has changed in the U.K. between now and then in terms of use (abuse?) patterns.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

The "modern" MDMA that kids these days are getting still gives strongly dilated pupils though: https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/search/?q=MDMA&sort=new&restrict_sr=on

You fail to mention the infinite more pictures that used to crop up on the MDMA sub which weren’t nearly as impressive. But even then many of those are insane doses to get there.

Good MDMA is out there, I had some last weekend, it’s just on average how many folks get good VS lackluster product. I’m imagining more get meh than magic, despite it still existing.

-GC

 

[fasterfb]

And when I say dilate, I don’t mean slightly or 80%, I mean 99.5% of your eyeball is black pupil.

Well maybe that's true for you, but I guarantee that it isn't the case for everybody. Not 99.5% of your eyeball lol.

The "modern" MDMA that kids these days are getting still gives strongly dilated pupils though: https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/search/?q=MDMA&sort=new&restrict_sr=on

Yes, a lot of these dilated pupil photos are pretty representative of how much pupil dilation that I get now with good MDMA, and got back in the 70's, 80's and 90's.

 

[Negi]

You fail to mention the infinite more pictures that used to crop up on the MDMA sub which weren’t nearly as impressive. But even then many of those are insane doses to get there.

Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though? Also I thought increasing the dose of mehDMA had no effect?

 

[Negi]

For some useful thread content, I finally got a reply from the reddit user who had a "meh" sounding experience from the exact batch that had his friends flying.

He had mentioned that he had a number of good and bad experiences from recent MDMA experiences, so I asked:

How did they line up, did you have the nice ones first and then the crappy ones or were the nice ones mixed in? Did your friends have a good reaction to the MDMA each time?

He replied:

Ops, i forgot to answer. Its like i have 2 good ones, bad, good, bad, bad, good, bad, good, good. So i want to say there is no scheme to it.

So it doesn't match up with the idea of just directly losing the magic, but also doesn't appear to be a universal problem (since his friends had a blast). Anyone remember when two people in this thread took a pill from the same bag and had meh vs magic experiences? The thread glossed over it pretty quickly but there seems to be a pattern here.

 

[indigoaura]

@Le Junk Thank you for posting again. Sometimes I just start to feel like I'm nuts, but it is good to hear from the people who have access to both and could have either experience depending on the product they use.

@Negi "Anyone remember when two people in this thread took a pill from the same bag and had meh vs magic experiences? The thread glossed over it pretty quickly but there seems to be a pattern here." Those were also two pills, and pills are sometimes not packed the same way or with the same dose, as evidenced by documented mg dosages in identical pills on Drugs Data.

I would like to know from that reddit poster what he means when he says his friends had a blast. Were they just fucked up? Did they talk about the experience at all? What was it like for them? Also, have there been times when they all had a bad roll, or is he the only one who has a bad roll when they have a good roll?

Some of those pupils look right to me on reddit, and some don't. My pupils on Saturday did not match those pics, after doses of 140 mg, 114 mg, and 90 mg. And, I have old pics of my pupils, so I know what they used to look like.

Based on what the guy on reddit is telling you, it would have to be something about an individual's physiology that varies from experience to experience. Or perhaps, an individual's sensitivity to an additive/impurity that not everyone has. Do you have any ideas or theories about what that could be? I have tried NAC, BPC-157, all kinds of vitamins, 5HTP, etc. etc. Never noticed any discernible difference.

This is a silly example, but some people eat asparagus and their urine odor changes. Other people eat asparagus and have no change to their urine odor. It is due to a genetic variation. As has been suggested here before, maybe some people are more sensitive to certain impurities than other people.

I would personally be more convinced that I am my problem if I had ever seen anyone just "balls to the wall" rolling on any of these meh batches, but I never have. Everyone I have seen has been equally as underwhelmed as me, and sometimes more underwhelmed. And, I just 100% don't buy set and setting as the explanation, because there have been times I have been thrilled, excited, and loving life and had the most meh experience ever (like Saturday), and other times in the past I have been miserable and feeling so shitty I thought I would not roll at all but experienced pure magic.

I was thinking about it yesterday though, and I do recall some "meh" pills from back in the day that looked okay on reagent tests. The difference back then was that I always had a few different kinds of pills laying around, so if one did not "do it" for me, I just popped a more familiar type of pill and took off from there.

 

[Negi]

Those were also two pills, and pills are sometimes not packed the same way or with the same dose, as evidenced by documented mg dosages in identical pills on Drugs Data.
....
I was thinking about it yesterday though, and I do recall some "meh" pills from back in the day that looked okay on reagent tests. The difference back then was that I always had a few different kinds of pills laying around, so if one did not "do it" for me, I just popped a more familiar type of pill and took off from there.