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History Was America founded on Christianity?

Frizz, yeah, they were referring to nature when they said "created equal". 8) Comments like that is what makes it impossible to discuss this in a mature manner. :\ Also, they were getting away from the ANGLICAN church, not Christianity! Come on bro, you know that.

they refer to nature's laws and nature's god in the declaration.. many of the founding fathers were deists and didnt subscribe to a Christian model of god. Thats why they wanted to get away from the state run religion which was the Anglican church for them at the time. thats exactly what i was saying.. pointing out why they didnt want gov't and religion intertwined.. otherwise you'd get stuff like in saudi arabia where the gov't is trying to stop valentines day.

Sure, the majority of the people in this country have always been Christians and i wouldn't be suprised if it's always that way, but saying the US is a "Christian Nation" means a little more to me than the US is majority christian
 
SoHiAllTheTime said:
I think "Christian nation" needs to be defined. I am not saying we are a theocracy.

when i hear "Christian Nation," theocracy is exactly what comes to mind.
 
Hmm.

I wrote a thread quite awhile ago called 'The United States is NOT a Christian Nation'. It seems it's not in the archive and has subsequently been deleted.

'tis a shame. Perhaps all threads with > 2-3 pages should automatically be put in the archive.
 
Interesting article on the differences between America and Europe on Religion

Excerpt:

What place for God in Europe?

Page 1 of 2

Across Europe,the conflicting currents of secularism, Christianity, and Islam are compelling Europeans to wrestle with their values as never before. In this first installment of a three-part series, the Monitor examines the forces that are shaping European identity - and explores why the Continent is debating what role, if any, religion should play in public life.

By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

PARIS – As he urged closer ties with Europe Monday, President Bush played down the current political disputes. "No power on earth will ever divide us," he said. That may be true when it comes to Iran's nuclear program. But his remark ironically hints at a transatlantic chasm over US and European values, and the role each side assigns to a fundamental facet of human life: religious faith.

Two events last year neatly frame the challenge: In the United States, a California man tried to remove "One Nation, Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. Americans cried foul - roughly 90 percent wanted to keep the phrase - and on June 15, the Supreme Court halted the bid on procedural grounds.

Three days later, in Brussels, officials agreed on the final text of the European Union's new Constitution. The charter made no mention of God, despite calls that it recognize Europe's Christian roots.

Indeed, its secularism has led to jokes that Europe is one big "blue" state. But Europeans aren't laughing. Buffeted by the crosscurrents of secularism, Christianity, and Islam - and mindful of a history of religious violence - they are wrestling with their values and identity as never before.

"The clash between those who believe and those who don't believe will be a dominant aspect of relations between the US and Europe in the coming years," says Jacques Delors, a former president of the European Commission. "This question of a values gap is being posed more sharply now than at any time in the history of European-US relations since 1945."

Religion's role in public life, and its influence on politics, have been center-stage questions worldwide since Sept. 11, 2001. But the debate in Europe has been complicated by the continent's difficulty in integrating its fast-growing Muslim immigrant minority. It has been sharpened by tragedies such as the bombing of a Madrid train station last March, and the brutal murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh by an Islamic extremist last fall.

Those incidents "will reinforce secularism" in Europe, predicts Patrick Weil, a sociologist of religion at the Sorbonne in Paris. "The tendency now in Europe is to say we have to be clear on the limits to religious intervention" in public life. "We are not going to sacrifice women's equality, democracy, and individual freedoms on the altar of a new religion."

Secularists who think like that are swimming in friendly waters in Europe, where religious convictions and practice have dropped sharply in recent decades, and where mainstream churches - especially the Catholic Church - continue to lose members and influence.

Today, just 21 percent of Europeans say religion is "very important" to them, according to the most recent European Values Study, which tracks attitudes in 32 European countries. A survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that nearly three times as many Americans, 59 percent, called their faith "very important."

Although a Gallup poll found last year that 44 percent of Americans say they attend a place of worship once a week, the average figure in Europe is only 15 percent, although the picture varies widely across the Continent.

link:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0222/p01s04-woeu.html
 
Originally posted by zorn
I think I agree with part of what SoHi is getting at. The way I would put it is that the United States is part of the Western Christian tradition. Most people in the US, since before its inception, have been either Christians of some variety or non-Christians raised in a Christian environment. Throughout American history, people have used Christian ideas & beliefs to make their arguments. Slaveholders cited the Bible to argue that slavery and division of the races were part of God's plan; abolitionists cited the Bible to argue that slavery was an abomination. The whole debate about the relationship of Church and State is part of a long argument going back through the Reformation and beyond.

Actually you should be accurate and re-phrase it to say the Christians have raised their children with some pagan values that fit their desires, and made the rest of the Jewish faith part of the whole, depending on the denomination. reading the bible shows, that for everything in the old-testament, there is a counter thought, or line in the new-testament.

So it's more like the Pagans have installed a christian belief system to get along with their jewish, and other christian neighbors, yet set it up so they can still get away with some shit if they feel like making revisions to their belief structure. It's an early form of constitutional law, but a bit more strict, and retarded. The priest's have all the power, as they are the interrupters of the laws. Just more despotism, just another the visage of religion, just like the Romans, and various other cultures.
 
I think it's very interesting that most of Western Europe has far less in the way of "separation of church and state" than the United States does -- many European countries require religious education in the public school, publicly fund a certain religion, or even have an official church. Yet religion today is far stronger in the USA than in Western Europe....

For example, in the UK, "There are two established (or state) churches, the Church of England (Anglican) and the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian).... A government grants program helps to fund repair and maintenance of listed places of worship of all religions nationwide... The advancement of religion is considered to be a charitable purpose... The Government provides funding for a large number of so-called "faith schools."... The law requires religious education in publicly maintained schools throughout the country.... In addition, schools have to provide a daily act of collective worship. In practice, this action mainly is Christian in character, reflecting Christianity's importance in the religious life of the country."

In Denmark, "There is an official state religion. The Constitution stipulates that the Evangelical Lutheran Church is the national church, the reigning monarch shall be a member of it, and the state shall support it. The Evangelical Lutheran Church is the only religious organization that can receive state subsidies or funds directly through the tax system... While the Evangelical Lutheran faith is taught in the public schools, a student may withdraw from religious classes with parental consent."

In Switzerland, "Most of the 26 cantons (with the exception of Geneva and Neuchatel, where church and religion are separated) financially support at least one of the three traditional denominations--Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, or Protestant--with funds collected through taxation... Religious education is taught in most public cantonal schools, with the exception of Geneva and Neuchatel."

In Spain "the Government treats religions in different ways. Catholicism is the dominant religion, and enjoys the closest official relationship with the Government.... Among the various benefits enjoyed by the Catholic Church is financing through the tax system... Jews, Muslims, and Protestants have official status through bilateral agreements, but enjoy fewer privileges." Same thing in Italy, "There is no state religion; however, the Catholic Church enjoys some privileges, stemming from its sovereign status and its historical political authority, not available to other faiths... For example, the Church is allowed to select Catholic teachers, paid by the State, to provide instruction in "hour of religion" courses taught in the public schools."

(all from http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/ )

Doesn't this suggest that the biggest beneficiary of a strict separation of church and state is actually religion? Conservative Christians in the USA who complain about the government being too secular and not giving Christianity its rightful place in the world often seem to assume that a more secular government means a more secular nation.... but it may be doing exactly the opposite. Liberal secularists might ironically be the best friend Christianity has...
 
I think it's very interesting that most of Western Europe has far less in the way of "separation of church and state" than the United States does -- many European countries require religious education in the public school, publicly fund a certain religion, or even have an official church. Yet religion today is far stronger in the USA than in Western Europe....

broadly i agree; be careful not to overstate the importance of, say, the element of religious education... and note that the character of (for example) the UK remains broadly christian.

i spent some time at a fee-paying 'church school' in the UK; in practice, this was one of the 'public schools' of lore (old school tie & whatnot, chaps) but with an attached reverend who would give a brief sermon on fridays. that was the sole extent of the religious instruction; there were no compulsory religious lessons, no communal prayers; the islamic students sat (with me) at the back of the hall during sermon-time, and no-one really did anything other than go through the motions.

why?

because being a church school brings financial assistance :) the national society (C. of E.) for promoting religious education, which oversees the church schools program, basically acts as an administrator for things like grants and school trust funds. so being a church school - no matter how flimsy your actual level of religious intent may be - is definitely in the school's favour, especially when you consider that the all-precious high-fee-paying foreign students largely don't mind the light-touch CofE approach. of course you could argue that this is evidence of a governmental decision to try to bolster christian beliefs, but it's not really. in a delicious touch, it appears parents don't have a problem breaking the odd commandment to ensure a church-schools education:

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_040419.shtml

:D

church attendances here in the UK have been dwindling, it's true. it's still important to remember that if you lined up 10 britons, 9.5 of them would be white, and 8 of them would be of christian descent; what's changing is the number of people who actively consider themselves christian. a recent yougov poll:

35% British adults do not believe in God and 21% don't know.
73% do not pray regularly.
28% do not believe in life after death and 29% don't know.
21% consider Christmas mainly as a religious festival, while 38% consider it mainly as a holiday and 28% as an opportunity to meet friends and family.

...

A survey of 3000 people in England , Scotland and Wales in 2000 found the proportion of people who say they belong to no religion has grown from 31% to 44%.
(British Social Attitudes Survey, National Centre for Social Research, Nov 2000)

2001 UK Census
Those of no religion are the 2nd largest belief group, about 3 times as many as all the other (non-Christian)religions altogether. 7,274,290 people said they had “no religion” - though only 10,357 specified that they were atheists.

Jedi Knights had 390,127 followers, and formed a larger group than several of the “major religions”: Jews (259, 927); Sikhs (329, 358);Buddhists (144,453); or minor religions such as Jainism (15,132), Zoroastrianism (3,738) or the Baha’i faith (4,645).

http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=1826

:D
 
well, i don't think you'll find many people in the US against some sort of comparative religion course, even in public school; the problem is to find someone that isn't a nutjob fundamentalist (like the sort of person that doesn't think an anglican! is a christian) to teach that class - similar to if a sunni/shi'ite moslem taught it and insisted the other was some godless heathen.
 
Last edited:
^^^^^^^^
Yeah, but "comparative religion" classes all have the same root philosophy: that all religions are equally valid or invalid. This is obviously an important requirement, and what separates a comparative religion or religious philosophy class from proselytization, but it'd offend the fundies just as much as no religious class does. :)

Actually, when I was in middle school and high school, we'd have to take World Civilization classes in...I think it was 6th and 9th grade, the 9th grade one being split into two classes, one a World Civ history class, and one a World Civ English class. In comparing any civilizations, one has to learn about their religions, and we did, but not in a religious or proselytizing way. We'd discuss, for instance, the role of Greek religion in the formation of democracy, or read the Sumerian story of Utnapishtim and compare it to the Biblical story of Noah and discuss how this might imply that either flooding across the Mesopotamian plain was common, or that there was one big-ass flood of both the Tigris and Euphrates (and possibly the Jordan, too) that was so devastating as to be remembered for thousands of years. We even read the story of Ruth in the Bible because it had an excellent description of the agrarian economics and sharecropping common in the time period. When we studied the Indus Valley civilizations of Mohejo Daro and Harrappa, and the later Aryan invasion, we read some of the Vedic texts that described it.

My point is that yes, religion is taught in our public schools, but not in the way that a lot of fundies would prefer. It can be taught in such a way that it gives no preference to either religion, without proselytizing, and still be a valuable education tool. But there is no way in hell that a course on "Why we should all love Jesus" or some such would be offered, any more than they'd offer a course on the supremacy of Vishnu. There's nothing wrong with studying religion as it relates to the study of civilizations, of history, and of art and literature, but there is definitely something very wrong with studying religion with the intent of imposing a belief system.

Besides, separation of Church and State is a bit of a no-brainer to anyone who's seen what the confluence of Church and State did to Europe during the Protestant Reformation, or is doing in the Middle-East right now. I mean, hell, if you want a great example for why religion should just be a private matter and not get enmeshed in politics, just look at the Middle-East, more people are being killed in the name of G_d now than were ever sacrificed to deities at Canaanite ceremonies.
 
Freemasonry is not based on satanism, that's quite an interesting opinion there, LOL!
Broke into a free mansons house once went through there books its like old judaism magic king solomon type stuff with strange rituals but oldschool free masons had links to satanic lodges in the 1700s in germany
 
The writings of the "founding fathers" are like the bible...
their words may be twisted in every which way to benefit she who invokes them.

The question is not, "what did they say?" or "what was our country founded upon?" The questions are, "what do we do now?" and "where do we go from here?"

ebola

Agreed. I think one need only to inspect an American Dollar bill to see the melding of State and Religion.
 
Canada is a Commonwealth country but doesn't have a state church despite being affiliated with the Anglican church and the Church of England

The United States has separation of church and state specifically as does Mexico

My theory is that a lot of people were illiterate back then, so those who created laws relied on scriptures from the Bible. That'd be what gives them a religious flair. The laws themselves aren't necessarily religious
 
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