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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: tryptakid | Foreigner

Economy Wealth Distribution: For The Many Or The Few?

Good gravy no. Most realistic models tend to posit a segment of rights that are held in kind by everyone, namely things like food, healthcare, shelter, water, and education. Anything beyond that is "each according to his ability" as the old line goes. A skilled doctor is going to have more labor value for a number of reasons based on skill, demand, level of education, etc that say a skilled office manager. That's not to degrade the skilled office manager either, that's just a realistic assessment of labor value. And yes, I think a system where everyone has their basic needs met as a starting point is going to gain enough support so that the population as a whole enforces it reflexively rather than risk losing it. Beyond that, its up to the individual to achieve through their own wants and desires which doesn't happen in the current capitalist form of economics. Yes, sure, there are your "bootstrap" stories but they aren't, aren't a whole, as cut and dried as people make them out to be, rather a large portion of those stories are based on things like desirable starting education, stable homes, hereditary income, etc.

Thank you for providing an actual answer.

A few observations and questions here then:

1. Enforcement of universal rights for everyone would require a large state, just like the one @tathra was criticising capitalist regulations for in the first place. There is literally no way to enforce something like this without state intervention. Do you agree, and if so do you think a big state is a problem yourself? Or do you believe it is an acceptable necessity or compromise?

2. You appear to be proposing a system where more skilled labour earns more resources if I am reading you correctly? How is this any different to a capitalist market?

3. Without a market, who decides what labour is worth more? The state?

4. You state your ideal is that it should be up to the individual to achieve their own desires, which I agree with fully, but why do you not believe capitalism facilitates this? And why do you believe a socialist system would be better suited for helping people achieve their goals?

5. You provide nepotism and inheritance as examples of problems within capitalism, but how would you prevent this in your socialist society?

Genuinely curious to hear your insights.
 
Thank you for providing an actual answer.
A few observations and questions here then:
1. Enforcement of universal rights for everyone would require a large state, just like the one @tathra was criticising capitalist regulations for in the first place. There is literally no way to enforce something like this without state intervention. Do you agree, and if so do you think a big state is a problem yourself? Or do you believe it is an acceptable necessity or compromise?
2. You appear to be proposing a system where more skilled labour earns more resources if I am reading you correctly? How is this any different to a capitalist market?
3. Without a market, who decides what labour is worth more? The state?
4. You state your ideal is that it should be up to the individual to achieve their own desires, which I agree with fully, but why do you not believe capitalism facilitates this? And why do you believe a socialist system would be better suited for helping people achieve their goals?
5. You provide nepotism and inheritance as examples of problems within capitalism, but how would you prevent this in your socialist society?
Genuinely curious to hear your insights.
There is a lot to unpack here and I won't claim to being a complete expert. I also may have to break it up a bit since we are experiencing some serious freaking storms and my power keeps shorting out. So if this ends up looking like paste in job, its because it is.

1. It depends honestly on what flavor of communism, socialism, or anarchy you end up with. Anarchists, who I respect immensely, believe that you can do this almost purely through mutual cooperation but I'm realistic enough to know that at best, there is going to be some sort of democratically chose set of standards. Understand too that "State" in the communist critique relies heavily, heavily on stratification and hierarchy. Contrarily, the communist version instead replaces stratification and hierarchy with absolute democracy forming what Engels referred to as the "dictatorship of the proletariat." I know that seems like "six of one, half dozen of the other" but with the abolishment of the class system and lacking a set of classes available to exploit, a whole apparatus of capitalist state control no longer exists.
So the setting of standards then would likely be those enforcing those concepts of democracy and basic rights as a primary system much in the same way that the Anti-Federalists in America assumed that the Constitution would be enough because "all other rights are inherent."
So how is this managed? Well, syndicalists would pursue charters determining their own labor groupings so prices set under The Union of Plumbers and the Union of Clinicians would set prices under their own and disagreements that are considered exploitative or troubling would be hashed out not just between those two but all syndicates. I would imagine the closest thing to this is a parliament of syndicates of sorts but I doubt they'd use that term. Anarchists would likely choose the same thing but without the syndicates (because they view syndicalists as hierarchical) but participation would be much more local (neighborhoods, sectors, cities, regions, etc) again democratically but region segmented (as a guess). SocDems would likely function very much in the same way that we do know as they are the closest to capitalists without the capitalist system.
And yes, the big state is a problem. Vanguard parties are power concentrations as they were in Russia, China, and even Cuba. A communist scholar would probably lampoon all of those as and call them state welfare capitalists with "communist stickers" because with vanguardists, the proletariat are quickly forgotten for their "own good." Realistically the biggest impediment to the proletariat will always be keeping a watchful eye.

2. Yes, market commerce will always be a thing and yes, some people will have more labor value than others. The difference here is: 1. A laborer of any job will be getting their full value of labor (you won't be paying out a percentage of your pay to your boss who does not do the work). 2. Jobs won't be locked behind education levels that require massive education systems that benefit those who start from a hereditary, economic, or geographical advantage. 3. With more free time, needs met, and buy in (due to seeking jobs you want rather than what you need to live) to the jobs, people can pursue those career fields that they enoy. 4. Jobs won't be subject to the fluctuation of need that isn't democratically controlled (jobs picked as artifical winners in the current economy heavily favor industries that are often incredible exploitable like capital, military, and energy)

3. As I said in 1. that depends on the system. And there will still be a market, just not as its currently controlled.

4. The simplest answer is because the current set of desires outside of those few people who can truly have anything their heart desires, the vast majority of us do not seek actualization but rather the basic set of protection for their lives and their family. We are worried constantly to maximize our own profitability rather than our own personal values so that we can constantly upgrade. But that drive to upgrade also creates its own cycle by which we seek less of self-actualization and more convenience and quick entertainment. Everything in our lives have been commodified, even our suffering. Marx called this the alienation of the worker from their Gattungswesen (species-esscense) and alienation from other workers.

5. This is honestly the most complex question due to a lot of theory on labor value. The biggest impediment to these would be that our current concept of money as a store of value would change. The most workable real world example comes from the Cincinnati Time Store where goods were purchased with labor vouchers. Labor vouchers, which in some ways acted like money as an exchange, rather than a store of value, were promises of participation to do certain works. Since those are valued by job and skill, the exchange of value is obviously going to be different. Again, example, you may be able to purchase a car with 1,000 labor units of from me as a carpenter but it may take only 100 labor units from me in my capacity as an Operational consultant. Using a labor value system means that you can't "make money off of money" which really makes the issue of heredity disappear. Value has to be stored in produced goods, raw goods, or people. The same sort of applies to nepotism because again, labor value has to be earned. Yes, there may still be some questions of nepotism and even issues of exploitation but with a system where workers are insulated to a vast degree by their own rights, who would realistically give someone more of themselves just because of who their parents are.
 
Ahhh labour vouchers. Like money?
So higher skilled people would earn more “ labour vouchers” than someone less skilled?
Like what happens now.

I Must admit I can’t stomach how some people are mega rich and others have nothing.
 
Ahhh labour vouchers. Like money?
So higher skilled people would earn more “ labour vouchers” than someone less skilled?
Like what happens now.

I Must admit I can’t stomach how some people are mega rich and others have nothing.

Except for the whole greedy class of people who aren't skilled and who produce nothing garnering the most part. 99% of all businesses operate on the principle of a person controlling the means of production and to live, we have to pay them a share of the labor. Yes, I know the argument of "go start your own business then" but that does nothing for the vast majority of people who can't, through their own social and economic position, secure the means to do so. They are exploited.

And "make the rich pay" is only a bandaid. Progressive SocDem policies are always overtime eroded. If you can vote in a tax increase you can always vote it out.
 
Except for the whole greedy class of people who aren't skilled and who produce nothing garnering the most part. 99% of all businesses operate on the principle of a person controlling the means of production and to live, we have to pay them a share of the labor. Yes, I know the argument of "go start your own business then" but that does nothing for the vast majority of people who can't, through their own social and economic position, secure the means to do so. They are exploited.

And "make the rich pay" is only a bandaid. Progressive SocDem policies are always overtime eroded. If you can vote in a tax increase you can always vote it out.
Well I own my own business so I’m obviously not keen on what your suggesting.
I graft everyday for what I have. Wasn’t born into money, the opposite in fact. Nearly 20 years with absolutely nothing except drug addiction.
in life u get out what u put in.
 
the main problem with socialism and communism is that the systems are so different that most people can't even comprehend how different things would be. people are all stuck thinking that the transactional nature of everything due to capitalism is some inherent trait of human society, but it's not

everyone has been living under the thumb of capitalism for so long that they use it for the basis when making comparisons, when really you need to throw out all those assumptions and rethink everything from the ground up. don't think in terms of, "how could we modify the things that currently are to be ideal?", but rather, "what would the ideal system, built from scratch, look like?"
 
Well I own my own business so I’m obviously not keen on what your suggesting.
I graft everyday for what I have. Wasn’t born into money, the opposite in fact. Nearly 20 years with absolutely nothing except drug addiction.
in life u get out what u put in.

What are you not keen on? The part about not being able to exploit people?

I own my own business too but I have no employees. There is nothing I'm worried about under this system. If you have employees and you are extracting their labor then yes, under this that would change.
 
What are you not keen on? The part about not being able to exploit people?

I own my own business too but I have no employees. There is nothing I'm worried about under this system. If you have employees and you are extracting their labor then yes, under this that would change.
Yes I pay people to work for me. I pay them what they are worth though. More skilled more money.
More effort more money.
I don’t feel I exploit anyone. It’s just a case of the more they add to my business the more I pay them.
 
the main problem with socialism and communism is that the systems are so different that most people can't even comprehend how different things would be. people are all stuck thinking that the transactional nature of everything due to capitalism is some inherent trait of human society, but it's not

everyone has been living under the thumb of capitalism for so long that they use it for the basis when making comparisons, when really you need to throw out all those assumptions and rethink everything from the ground up. don't think in terms of, "how could we modify the things that currently are to be ideal?", but rather, "what would the ideal system, built from scratch, look like?"
Yes your right. I base most opinions on what I have personally experienced so I’ve obviously only experienced the current situation.
There would still have to be laws though so would there be a global police force?
 
Yes I pay people to work for me. I pay them what they are worth though. More skilled more money.
More effort more money.
I don’t feel I exploit anyone. It’s just a case of the more they add to my business the more I pay them.

Sure and that's what every capitalist believes but its not true. They are worth what they produce. If they produce a grand piano that's sold for $30,000 then their labor value is 30,000. Do you pay them that? Or do you extract the value of their labor?
 
Sure and that's what every capitalist believes but its not true. They are worth what they produce. If they produce a grand piano that's sold for $30,000 then their labor value is 30,000. Do you pay them that? Or do you extract the value of their labor?
Can’t run a business like that lol
I have to earn out of it or why would I go through the trouble?
 
There would still have to be laws though so would there be a global police force?
police are completely unnecessary, even now. communities can police themselves, and with everyone's basic needs met and no more fetishization of greed and material wealth, crime rates will be much lower than they are now

you're still likely to have various crimes of passion and other things that harm others, and it'll basically be up to each community to decide the best way to deal with that. without poverty and borders, people would more easily be able to relocate to a different community if their own values differed too much from their neighbors'
 
police are completely unnecessary, even now. communities can police themselves, and with everyone's basic needs met and no more fetishization of greed and material wealth, crime rates will be much lower than they are now

you're still likely to have various crimes of passion and other things that harm others, and it'll basically be up to each community to decide the best way to deal with that. without poverty and borders, people would more easily be able to relocate to a different community if their own values differed too much from their neighbors'
BAck to survival of the fittest then.
the most violent ruthless people would be in charge
People would still fight. All men were not created equal.
 
Can’t run a business like that lol
I have to earn out of it or why would I go through the trouble?

Oh sure, and this is why tathra noted that what's proposed isn't merely a fix to current systems but a new system entirely. I'm also not insulated from the question either. I am the Chief Operations Officer of a major distributor and have a ridiculous amount of people working for me. I am, to classic Marxist, the outright representation of the bourgeoisse. I'm good at my job and I enjoy it. And I must operate within the current economic system. To be successful I have to work in that framework. I'd much, much rather not and if in a new system I could just run my other business, I'd be much more fulfilled and happy.
 
BAck to survival of the fittest then.
the most violent ruthless people would be in charge
People would still fight. All men were not created equal.
I'd like to think that wouldn't happen. you don't need a central authority to keep people from misbehaving, all you need is a strong (coherent / strong social bonds, not militarily strong) society to keep people like that in check
 
I feel greed, envy, pride, vanity etc would surpass everything else.
if there was no police I could kill youfor any reason.
 
I feel greed, envy, pride, vanity etc would surpass everything else.
if there was no police I could kill youfor any reason.
but why would you?
serious question. I have been to places that are supposedly lawless, coastal Somalia up from Mombasa in the mid 90's, there people could kill each other for no reason if they choose, I could have too, but they don't and you don't because they realize that is counterproductive. Instead a unwritten truce operated, you pay your bills when you could steal, you do business when you could plunder, you ask rather than take, and that is that. If the Somalis could do this then why not other people.

The function of the police is not to protect you the little guy, test it next time you get robbed, they are there to protect the State and expand their own power whilst protecting the connected sociopaths who have seized the State levers of power.

I am not a statist, there are very few things that can't be made worse by a centralized state. There simply is no need for a world government, humans are all born with pretty much the same hardware and OS so left to their own devices the vast majority will figure out win win over zero sum.
 
but why would you?
serious question. I have been to places that are supposedly lawless, coastal Somalia up from Mombasa in the mid 90's, there people could kill each other for no reason if they choose, I could have too, but they don't and you don't because they realize that is counterproductive. Instead a unwritten truce operated, you pay your bills when you could steal, you do business when you could plunder, you ask rather than take, and that is that. If the Somalis could do this then why not other people.

The function of the police is not to protect you the little guy, test it next time you get robbed, they are there to protect the State and expand their own power whilst protecting the connected sociopaths who have seized the State levers of power.

I am not a statist, there are very few things that can't be made worse by a centralized state. There simply is no need for a world government, humans are all born with pretty much the same hardware and OS so left to their own devices the vast majority will figure out win win over zero sum.
If there was no police I’d have put a few people in the ground by now. Nothing to do with money either.
People get pissed off over all sorts of things.
The police do protect the public in the uk. They are pretty shit but if someone getting attacked they will come. Not if you’re getting robbed though.
 
If there was no police I’d have put a few people in the ground by now. Nothing to do with money either.
People get pissed off over all sorts of things.
The police do protect the public in the uk. They are pretty shit but if someone getting attacked they will come. Not if you’re getting robbed though.
Let me get this straight, the only thing that restrains you from killing people is the police. Do you not have the discipline and personal moral ethos to restrain your actions?

Every day I have numerous opportunities to do crimes, In general I try and keep it to less than 2 felonies a day and no capital offenses, the police do not figure in that calculation. My personal code of conduct restrains what I do, not fear of retribution or punishment.
 
Let me get this straight, the only thing that restrains you from killing people is the police. Do you not have the discipline and personal moral ethos to restrain your actions?

Every day I have numerous opportunities to do crimes, In general I try and keep it to less than 2 felonies a day and no capital offenses, the police do not figure in that calculation. My personal code of conduct restrains what I do, not fear of retribution or punshment.
Yes that’s correct, I’d kill u for your calling me a gamon if there was no police. Lol
 
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