Election 2020 The 2020 Candidates: Right, Left and Center!

[mal3volent]

but to regain the majority of American minds I think the left needs to change a LOT more than just their position on abortion,

Well, Democrats won the popular vote in 6 of the last 7 presidential elections. So I'm not sure they have THAT much ground to make up.

Yeah we live under the electoral college... guess which states usually determine the electoral vote? Centrist states. Battleground states. Aka Religious states.

Among religious republicans abortion is up near the top of issues they care about. Among religious centrist working class democrats... extreme left views on abortion push them away from the party.

Working class voters like welfare programs. They like unions. They want the planet to exist for their great grand children. They don't mind paying pennies more in taxes to get better infrastructure, schools, and healthcare.

But amongst the religious ones, this huge moral issue exists. If I vote for ________ I'm an accomplice in baby killing.

 

[totach]

I agree they're all crooked, it's just that from what I've seen, of Trump himself speaking, and of evidence brought forth, he should have impeachment put on him. Even if it fails, it sets a precedent, or really it's drawing a line in the sand for the future. If we let him get away with it, future leaders will know that they can get away with anything, too. This stuff is unprecedented.

Now, I don't think he will get removed, I know what's going to happen. But it needs to be recognized that this guy is not fit for the position he's in. He has no experience at all with politics and being the "leader of the free world". He's a narcissistic egomaniac, he clearly has narcissistic personality disorder, I had a friend who was the same way, it's as clear as day anytime you observe him speaking about something. We are in a precarious position, we are not invincible, China and Russia are threats, Russia as it has been since the world wars, and now China. Both of these powers are looking to overturn us as the top world power. And they are playing him like a fiddle. If you have seen the footage of the hearings, and of the Republican/Trump administration response, and you don't see that, then I guess we're in two different realities about what's going on.

Impeachment does 3 things. It does what I described above, draws a line in the sand. It also tells our allies that we, the people, realize what is happening and want it to stop. And also, it COULD result in removing him earlier so he can do less further damage. If it does, great. Even though I'm quite sure it won't.

That's my take on it. yeah the economy's great. So what? China owns us financially, heavy sanctions could really fuck up our economy. And they are massive and sophisticated now. There's some high-level stuff going on, and Trump is just not the guy to be leading us through this.

I’m not sure if I’m getting this right but are you basically saying that if Biden were not running then it would have bin ok for trump to ask Ukraine why they tried to sweep that whole story under the rug? . I’m not sure how long trump has known about the Bidens corruption but even if he did know for a while and waited to bring it up during election time then I still don’t see anything wrong with that. Why do all the Biden supporters not want trump to get to the bottom of this corruption ? This to me just proves how dems will do anything and look whichever way they choose to look when it suits there purpose.

 

[tathra]

There are a thousand other ways the government already owns us.

which is exactly why we need to shut them all down. the only inherent human right, which all other human rights naturally flow from, from where morality naturally springs, and from which the concept of consent is a byproduct of, is the ownership of one's own body

it is not ok for government to dictate what people are allowed to do with their own bodies, to do so requires the government to own the people's bodies. drug laws, sex work laws, any laws to do with pregnancy and reproduction, etc, are all unacceptable. "we should tolerate governmental control over women's bodies" is just another way of saying that women are property and you approve of their enslavement

 

[mal3volent]

which is exactly why we need to shut them all down. the only inherent human right, which all other human rights naturally flow from, from where morality naturally springs, and from which the concept of consent is a byproduct of, is the ownership of one's own body

it is not ok for government to dictate what people are allowed to do with their own bodies, to do so requires the government to own the people's bodies. drug laws, sex work laws, any laws to do with pregnancy and reproduction, etc, are all unacceptable. "we should tolerate governmental control over women's bodies" is just another way of saying that women are property and you approve of their enslavement

As you know, half the country doesn't see it as an issue of "a woman's body"....they see two bodies. Regardless of what you or I think, politically speaking it makes sense for Dems to modify their position. Religious republicans (a % of them) might actually vote in their own self interest (D) if that barrier was removed.

We can twiddle our thumbs until the oceans overtake us, or Democrats could start playing to win so we can get the White House, Congress, and at some point the Supreme Court.

Whites like us will be a minority soon, and that's great, but immigrants are very religious and not as cozy with abortion as American liberals.

 

[tathra]

As you know, half the country doesn't see it as an issue of "a woman's body"....they see two bodies.

take the fetus out so it can fend for itself, problem solved

 

[mal3volent]

take the fetus out so it can fend for itself, problem solved

I wasn't trying to have an abortion debate...that is off topic for this thread as you know.

Was referring to how democratic candidates could get more votes, win, and actually put into law the big things we want. Single payer healthcare, amnesty for immigrants, and climate justice.

 

[tathra]

so we agree that they need to run progressive platforms instead of moving further right, cool

glad to see another Bernie supporter

 

[Wilson Wilson]

View attachment 18078

Lol Bernie...

which is exactly why we need to shut them all down. the only inherent human right, which all other human rights naturally flow from, from where morality naturally springs, and from which the concept of consent is a byproduct of, is the ownership of one's own body

it is not ok for government to dictate what people are allowed to do with their own bodies, to do so requires the government to own the people's bodies. drug laws, sex work laws, any laws to do with pregnancy and reproduction, etc, are all unacceptable. "we should tolerate governmental control over women's bodies" is just another way of saying that women are property and you approve of their enslavement

Agree with this, the state should not have any right to dictate our personal lives at all.

 

[mal3volent]

Agree with this, the state should not have any right to dictate our personal lives at all.

What do you mean by our personal lives?

 

[mal3volent]

so we agree that they need to run progressive platforms instead of moving further right, cool

Yes we agree that the overall platform should be extremely progressive. However, having a more centrist position on one single issue (which would still be considered pro choice) would instantly win more votes in the middle of the country where most of the battleground states are.

(By the way, a newborn baby can't fend for itself. Neither can a toddlers, those who are handicapped, or the elderly. Does this fact devalue their lives too? )

 

[Mafioso]

The Patriots may have an offense, defense, and special teams- but they all have the same end goal In mind.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

What do you mean by our personal lives?

Anything that goes on within our private life and does not violate the rights of others.

An obvious example most on this forum will agree with is taking drugs. Even if you make the argument that drugs are harmful, any adult should have the right to put whatever they want in their body. After all fast food is very harmful too but yet we don't make McDonald's illegal.

Wrt the abortion issue specifically, it seems to me the only argument against it comes from hardcore Christians, and I am also of the view that the government should not make religious laws. Individuals should be able to believe what they like, but no religious group has a right to impose their religious views on the whole population. Given that the only argument against abortion is essentially "it sends Christians into a hissy fit", there's no reason for it to be illegal. America is behind the rest of the Western world on this. Even in Northern Ireland which is also strong Christian they have now legalised abortion with public support. No legitimate reason for this to still be an issue.

And yes I know it is federally legal in the US, but obviously it remains highly controversial and some states make it impossible to access.

 

[mal3volent]

An obvious example most on this forum will agree with is taking drugs. Even if you make the argument that drugs are harmful, any adult should have the right to put whatever they want in their body

Wrt the abortion issue specifically, it seems to me the only argument against it comes from hardcore Christians, and I am also of the view that the government should not make religious laws.

So pregnant women should be able to do all the drugs they want then right?
It's not a religious thing. I'm as atheist as they come.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

So pregnant women should be able to do all the drugs they want then right?
It's not a religious thing. I'm as atheist as they come.

Sure. I mean I'm not advocating it, but it shouldn't be a crime. It's not illegal for pregnant women to drink and alcohol does more harm to a fetus than most drugs.

It is primarily a religious thing. The fact some atheists share the view doesn't mean the majority of people who are anti-abortion aren't religious.

I'm curious though, as you are atheist, why do you believe it is up to the government to enforce morality?

 

[mal3volent]

It's not about "morality" for me, I'd describe it more as human rights. And the protection of innocence.

It's also the logical thing...I should care about this child once it's born, but the day before that it means literally nothing? I don't know about you but my brain can't make that leap.

All that being said, I think abortion should be legal, safe, and accessible to those who need it. Allowing the government to have that kind of access into people's personal affairs would be a bad precedent.

So I'm able to separate my personal beliefs from the practical realities of governing 300 million people. I think many people don't see this as a black and white issue. There needs to be some kind of compromise.

Which brings me back to what I was originally saying. If Dems were as in tune with voters as republicans seem to be, they'd have a more nuanced position on this particular issue.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

It's not about "morality" for me, I'd describe it more as human rights. And the protection of innocence.

This still sounds like a moral position to me, particularly "protection of innocence." That's a very emotionally loaded terminology.

It's also the logical thing...I should care about this child once it's born, but the day before that it means literally nothing? I don't know about you but my brain can't make that leap.

No one advocates for abortion at eight months. This is a bit of a strawman argument. The generally agreed upon limit is three months into pregnancy unless there are exceptional circumstances (medical emergency etc).

All that being said, I think abortion should be legal, safe, and accessible to those who need it. Allowing the government to have that kind of access into people's personal affairs would be a bad precedent.

So we effectively agree in the end, even if we share different personal views on the issue, we agree in how the government should treat it.

I am in total agreement the government should not have that level of control over the personal affairs of citizens. That was my initial position.

So I'm able to separate my personal beliefs from the practical realities of governing 300 million people. I think many people don't see this as a black and white issue. There needs to be some kind of compromise.

Certainly very few things in life are black and white, it seems to me that activists on both sides are very emotionally driven and therefore see this issue as either "women have no freedom" or "you want to murder babies" when clearly neither is really true.

I am continuously surprised by how each side of the debate cares less about defending and supporting their own view and more about trying to make the other side look as evil as possible. Not just with regards to abortion but I mean just politics in general. People become emotionally invested in political causes and attack those they perceive to be enemies of that cause. Everything is so polarised.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

If tathra wants to respond why don't you let him instead of refereeing.

Fair enough.

 

[tathra]

(By the way, a newborn baby can't fend for itself. Neither can a toddlers, those who are handicapped, or the elderly. Does this fact devalue their lives too? )

if something literally cannot survive outside of their host then they're quite literally a parasite. thinking that people should be enslaved because they have parasites is an abhorrent position. those that have agency and their own separate body should always have say over what happens to it, that's why there's legal means which establish who can speak for a person if they're unable to do so themselves, consent and self ownership are everything

if fetuses can exercise their right of self ownership then there should be no problem with removing them from their host, because they're their own person with their own rights yes? so let them exercise them

if you acknowledge that fetuses can't survive outside their host then you're acknowledging that they do not have self ownership and thus cannot be recognized as a "person" because they're nothing more than a parasite, and if people are unable to exercise their innate human right of self ownership to remove parasites from their body then they are literally slaves

pro-slavery people are entirely dependent upon this argument:


and then ofc if you're in the pro-slavery camp then you must also be ok with taking blood, organs, etc, to give to people that need them. after all, another person's life is at stake, and there is no difference between that and forcing a woman to carry an unwanted parasite to term

 

[mal3volent]

if something literally cannot survive outside of their host then they're quite literally a parasite. thinking that people should be enslaved because they have parasites is an abhorrent position. those that have agency and their own separate body should always have say over what happens to it, that's why there's legal means which establish who can speak for a person if they're unable to do so themselves, consent and self ownership are everything

if fetuses can exercise their right of self ownership then there should be no problem with removing them from their host, because they're their own person with their own rights yes? so let them exercise them

if you acknowledge that fetuses can't survive outside their host then you're acknowledging that they do not have self ownership and thus cannot be recognized as a "person" because they're nothing more than a parasite, and if people are unable to exercise their innate human right of self ownership to remove parasites from their body then they are literally slaves

pro-slavery people are entirely dependent upon this argument:
View attachment 18980

and then ofc if you're in the pro-slavery camp then you must also be ok with taking blood, organs, etc, to give to people that need them. after all, another person's life is at stake, and there is no difference between that and forcing a woman to carry an unwanted parasite to term

If you can't form arguments without these kinds of antics maybe we should just move on. pro slavery...parasite...really?

 

[tathra]

yes how ridiculous for me to call things according to their definitions