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success of quitting hard drugs but not cannabis vs. total abstinence

LucidSDreamr

LucidSDreamr

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does continuing cannabis use decrease the chances of staying clean from hard drugs (opioids and benzos)? Is a total abstinence approach the most statistically successful? anecdotal experiences of your own welcome. This would entail cannabis only (no alcohol).

i didn't post this in the recovery forum because its about staying high on cannabis.
 
I personally know a guy who quit smack like 7 years ago at this point and has never relapsed because he keeps smoking weed erryday.

A bit too early to say for me but I quit oxy a few months ago and don't plan on ever going back to it. I still use benzos, stims, and weed most days and have yet to be tempted to use oxy again even when offered it virtually for free.
 
Good question.
Guess it depends on your perception of sobriety.

If I’m not blind drunk doing stupid shit that I’ll later regret more than the hangover and wake up each day in my own bed, i call it a sober day lol regardless of the Valium, temazepam, codeine I may have consumed 😳
 
Yes, people have successfully replaced their [insert drug here] habit with cannabis usage.

IME, most people who were former hardcore "downer" addicts (opiates and/or tranquilizers) don't really even like weed unless it's in combination with other drugs. It seems like there's a high percentage of people in that cohort who get anxiety from marijuana. But some people definitely are able to get the benefits of cannabis while avoiding the pitfalls of other drugs. My former weed dealer was a former alcoholic who basically lived on the streets in his younger years, but when I knew him he had started a family, a successful career, and had a seemingly satisfying and stable life. He was a stoner too, LOL, but I'd argue that marijuana addiction is far easier on the body and mind than alcoholism or other addictions. I definitely don't agree with the traditional dogma regarding total abstinence from all psychoactive drugs as the end-all-and-be-all solution to drug addiction...for some people maybe that's necessary, but it's not the best solution for everyone.
 
Burnt Offerings said:
Yes, people have successfully replaced their [insert drug here] habit with cannabis usage.

IME, most people who were former hardcore "downer" addicts (opiates and/or tranquilizers) don't really even like weed unless it's in combination with other drugs. It seems like there's a high percentage of people in that cohort who get anxiety from marijuana. But some people definitely are able to get the benefits of cannabis while avoiding the pitfalls of other drugs. My former weed dealer was a former alcoholic who basically lived on the streets in his younger years, but when I knew him he had started a family, a successful career, and had a seemingly satisfying and stable life. He was a stoner too, LOL, but I'd argue that marijuana addiction is far easier on the body and mind than alcoholism or other addictions. I definitely don't agree with the traditional dogma regarding total abstinence from all psychoactive drugs as the end-all-and-be-all solution to drug addiction...for some people maybe that's necessary, but it's not the best solution for everyone.
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although my main addiction has always been downers, i've always enjoyed stims, psychs, and weed. so the anxiety thing isn't an issue for me with weed.

The problem is that in recovery circles weed is a no-no, so basically you are left on your own to figure out recovery with no support system if you plan to continue using weed. Its not like youre going to get kicked out of NA if you smoke weed, but when the entire "curriculum" for these recovery organizations excludes weed use, it almost feels pointless to do any of it unless you quit weed.

the teaching regarding continued weed use, is that you are reinforcing the habit of escaping stress using chemicals. The goal of recovery is to free yourself of this habit (as these organizations see it). It just doesn't seem like i fit in with these groups although i haven't really gotten deep into them, because i can't seem to bend the rules or philosphy to accomplish my goal of being free from pills and opioids while continuing with a weed addiction, which in my opinion would be harder to truly quit than pills.

i would like to quit weed also, but i just have so little faith in myself that I can accomplish it that I am not even trying. its hard to find motivation to quit weed when the impact on my life from this particular drug has been so minimal despite heavy use for decades. Then as far as opioids go, all it will take is for either of my painful medical conditions to flare, then opioids come back into the picture, which is OK as long as they don't start getting abused, but the line between abuse and pain management can become blurred...but whatever I have no qualms about "relapsing" if there is severe pain involved. The problem is when the pain is gone and there is still half a bottle of pills left sitting there and I'm not in a recovery mindset.

so i continue blindly, and alone, trying to free myself from the most destructive addictions i have. I could keep going to meetings and just take whatever i can get out of it and apply it to my personal recovery whatever that recovery entails. I have never asked for a sponsor or begun step work, basically because of the weed thing. I don't even think i would be allowed to do step work or have a sponsor being a cannabis user, does anyone have any insight as to this?
 
Those orgs can sit and spin lol. They're the same kinds of people who poo poo the gold standard of treatment for opioid addiction (opioid-replacement therapy) while puffing away on the most lethal drug there is.

There are other strategies to approaching a problematic drug relationship in your life than the total abstinence, "disease model" of addiction. Some people need/appreciate the discipline and structered approach of such models, but I'd definitely explore your options. Esp. if you're not one of those people for whom one drink, one puff, one hit etc. = watch out cuz it's off to the races
 
^ I can honestly say that weed does not make me crave or use other drugs. probably the opposite effect where i've i'm down or craving drugs, weed will suffice. Alcohol, now that was a different story but i haven't drank in years now, but this was forced because of health damage from drug use, not my own will power of wanting to quit alcohol.

I don't konw what other strategies you speak of, i've tried therapists and recovery 1 on 1 coaches. There is a lot about NA that seems like bullshit to me, which is why I tried so many other therapists or non-NA recovery groups, but I feel like i've tried everything at this point and its basically the only thing left to try. As I understand it, there are plenty of people in NA that use weed or maintenance drugs despite it being against the curriculim. I feel like having a group of friends that support recovery and that understand what I go through might be useful since i have nobody in my life that uses drugs or understands addiction, if I find that my recovery, whatever it entails is not welcome, I guess I'll stop going, or maybe just keep going to be reminded of the misery that comes with opioid addiction.
 
I guess I just resent the idea that you should be judged for choosing to alter the electrical/chemical-mediated experience which is our consciousness. If you go apeshit and beat up old ladies or expose yourself to kids or engage in any number of messed-up behaviors while high, then that's a seperate question. But life is hard, I don't are who you are, and there's no shame in responsible substance use, imho. But there are people who are just completely unable to keep it in the lines with ANYTHING, and they're kind of the measure for whom everyone else is judged
 
i feel there is something wrong with substance use on any level. The mind and body did not evolve to have drugs as an essential component for survivial. disrupting the brain chemistry isn't usually going to result in anything good other than an ephemeral high. like when i dont use weed, i can be a real a-hole, 1 hit and i'm mr. nice guy. Am i an asshole because my mind is so disrupted from all the cannabis and i can't be happy without it or would i have been an a-hole anyways had i never touched weed? I don't really know and i've never been able to stop long enough to find out.
 
Our mind and body evolved to roam around in hunter-gatherer bands on the savanna, lol. I feel like you could look at any number of things in modern life and say that they represent some kind of deviation from our real, "natural" state of being. But if someone chooses to be abstinent from drugs, I respect that decision as much as anyone else's personal opinions about what they choose to ingest into their body. To each their own
 
LucidSDreamr said:
The mind and body did not evolve to have drugs as an essential component for survivial.
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This is very much debatable. There is a receptor in the human brain that exists purely to receive morphine. Historians have shown that there is recorded use of opium, cannabis, psilocybin, ibogaine, ayahuasca and various other naturally occurring psychedelics going back to the first known human civilisations. As these substances have likely been used since the dawn of man, an argument can easily be made that we evolved along with nature to alter our minds. In fact I think it is a lot less likely that plant life evolved in some kind of vacuum separate from the influence of humanity, don't you? There is even a theory that humans developed consciousness because we consumed psilocybin mushrooms (stoned ape theory).

If these drugs are produced in nature, and provide enjoyable and often therapeutic medicinal effects when consumed by humans, can you really call their effects unnatural?

When you eat vegetables and they provide nutrients to the body, is this outside of what we evolved for too? If not, what makes the use of naturally occurring psychoactive plants any different?

What is very unnatural however is this internet thing. And electricity. And television. And glasses. And soap. And shampoo. And automobiles. And trains.
 
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Wilson Wilson said:
This is very much debatable. There is a receptor in the human brain that exists purely to receive morphine. Historians have shown that there is recorded use of opium, cannabis, psilocybin, ibogaine, ayahuasca and various other naturally occurring psychedelics going back to the first known human civilisations. As these substances have likely been used since the dawn of man, an argument can easily be made that we evolved along with nature to alter our minds. In fact I think it is a lot less likely that plant life evolved in some kind of vacuum separate from the influence of humanity, don't you? There is even a theory that humans developed consciousness because we consumed psilocybin mushrooms (stoned ape theory).

If these drugs are produced in nature, and provide enjoyable and often therapeutic medicinal effects when consumed by humans, can you really call their effects unnatural?

When you eat vegetables and they provide nutrients to the body, is this outside of what we evolved for too? If not, what makes the use of naturally occurring psychoactive plants any different?

What is very unnatural however is this internet thing. And electricity. And television. And glasses. And soap. And shampoo. And automobiles. And trains.
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opioid receptors do not exist purely to recieve morphine, they exist to recieve endogenous opioid peptides that bind the the opioids receptors and are released during times of phhysical exertion and pain. These peptides are weak and do not throw the entire neurochemistry off balance like morphine. Morphine poppies did not evole because morphine is good for humans or animals, they likely evovled because morphine was good for that plant itself (kept anaimls addicted and eating pods and spreading seeds in their fecal waste). The chemicals an organism produces are good for itself and its survivial, whether its good for another animal that consumes it i think a lot more has to be considered than just "its natural."

list of other things produced by nature: cyanide, strycchnine, cocaine, toxic metals, carcinogens...and a host of other deadly, nasty, and addictive substances.

The population of animals that evolved into humans which we believe was around somalia, did they consume mind altering drugs during their evolution? possibly. Did it help them or hurt them? who knows. if it was it definitely wasn't all of the standard drugs of abuse and spiritual use that nature makes, it might have just been one drug due to geographical constraints. I can't base a decision about flooding my brain with THC for decades everyday being good for me on so many unknown variables, but probability says that humans did not evolve to have tHC in their brains. permanently. I remember shulgin talking about how the psychedelic mindstate is actually detrimental to the survival of an organism. He was saying how an animal focusing on hallucinations would not be aware of dangers like a sober animal would.

At a certain level, i don't really know why I feel its "wrong" do consume so much THC. Social conditioning may have a lot to do with it. Nothing bad has ever happened to my because of pot, it has never hurt my intellect or ability to succeed in work or school. It has never damaged my health (except for lungs, which i quit smoking it a few years ago). i suffer from some type undiagnosed biopolar depression i belive or anxiety, is weed helping with that? my gut tells me no. In conclusion i'm on the fence as to whether i should continue to consume cannabis like this forever or I should try to stop.
 
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LucidSDreamr said:
opioid receptors do not exist purely to recieve morphine, they exist to recieve endogenous opioid peptides that bind the the opioids receptors and are released during times of phhysical exertion and pain. These peptides are weak and do not throw the entire neurochemistry off balance like morphine.
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Morphine and codeine are produced within the human body as endogenous opioids as well as the peptides you mention. There is therefore a receptor in our brain that exists purely to accept morphine.

Now I don't know about you but I don't happen to believe that the fact an identical substance is created both within the poppy and within the human body is a total coincidence. That seems a bit far fetched to me. If nature and humans evolved side by side so that the humble poppy contains something the human body creates and the human brain accepts, that seems to me like nature providing for us - not unlike how oranges provide us vitamin C.

LucidSDreamr said:
list of other things produced by nature: cyanide, strycchnine, cocaine, toxic metals, carcinogens...and a host of other deadly, nasty, and addictive substances.
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I'd argue the coca leaf is fine too. It is another example of a natural drug with a long long history of human use. Yes cocaine is a different thing, but cocaine is semi-synthetic, it is not present in nature.

But you appear to be misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying "everything natural must be good." Humans, like other animals, quickly learn what is dangerous and poisonous and learn to avoid it, which is why we didn't become extinct by eating poison berries.

But on the flip side we also learnt what is good for us and how to make the most of it. There is evidence of very early human cultures smoking cannabis, consuming opium, and eating magic mushrooms. This is a matter of historic fact. Considering that consumption of psychoactive substances has been going on as long as humans have existed and across many different cultures, it appears to me very far fetched to act like this is not natural human behaviour.

Here is an article that drills down into the theory and science a bit more if you're interested:

The Intoxication Instinct – Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies – MAPS

maps.org maps.org
 
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I didn't know that rats biosynthesized morphine, thats pretty interesting. As the old saying goes though "the dose makes the poison." I'm still not there to believe that consuming amounts of morphine far greater than the traces that may exist in our bodies is good just because ancient people did it and its produced in trace amounts in the body. My own life experience and that of most other people that consume opioids on a regular basis shows too much evidence to the contrary that the drugs are destructive. Basically if you're miserable enough with pain to justfiy the baggage that opioids bring is the only justification i can think of to take them and have it be "good for you" or whatever.

since plants an animals came from a common ancestor I believe is the reasons we both have it. But animals have lots of vestigial organs and chemicals left over from evolution that are detrimental to the species, so I'm not on board with the idea that disrupting the body chemistry by adding drugs is without problems or good for people, despite that morphine served an evolutionary purpose for a commone ancestor with humans, or may even serve the species presently in the trace amounts that and specific times it may be produced.
 
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LucidSDreamr said:
I'm still not there to believe that consuming amounts of morphine far greater than the traces that may exist in our bodies is good just because ancient people did it
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Once again, this is not my argument. I am not trying to argue what is "good" or "bad." The only person framing it that way is you, not me.

Your claim was that the human body did not evolve to consume psychoactive substances. I am providing examples that prove is this untrue. I am focusing on naturally occurring drugs because they have been used by humans since we have existed, way before we developed the ability to synthesise drugs, therefore they hold the proof that seeking intoxication is in fact a part of human nature.

I am not saying that everyone should go out and take morphine. I am merely pointing out that the desire to seek out an altered state of mind is very natural.

Not just for humans either. You never seen cats on catnip?
 
^ i've got my cat very hooked on cat nip. the brand is even called "cat dope"

I think we're getting very hung up on the definition of it "being natural" If something disregulates my mood to the point where i treat others poorly if i'm not high or something damages a biological process in my body, I'm saying that is "unnatural." But maybe a better word would be "improper" or "suboptimal" or "unhealthy" Sure its natural to seek out drugs since animals and humans do them and they are natural beings, i'm not arguing against that. Its natural to want to have sex with lots of women unprotected and we actually evolved to do that. But my life would be ruined if i had 10 baby mommas so I don't do that.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
^ i've got my cat very hooked on cat nip. the brand is even called "cat dope"

I think we're getting very hung up on the definition of it "being natural" If something disregulates my mood to the point where i treat others poorly if i'm not high or something damages a biological process in my body, I'm saying that is "unnatural." But maybe a better word would be "improper" or "suboptimal" or "unhealthy" Sure its natural to seek out drugs since animals and humans do them and they are natural beings, i'm not arguing against that.

Seeking an altered state of mind with drugs is not natural. Seeking an increase in dopamine is natural because its what motivates animals to do everything they need to do to survivie. The fact that outside chemicals flood the brain with this same motivational chemical doesn't mean that being on drugs is natural.
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Sure you can call certain attitudes to drugs unhealthy and so on, that's completely fair and subjective to the individual.

But seeking an altered state of mind with drugs is a natural human drive. The fact that there has never been a sober society in all of recorded human history is proof enough of that. Doesn't mean I am saying drugs are necessarily "good" or healthy, only that the drive to seek them out is natural.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
does continuing cannabis use decrease the chances of staying clean from hard drugs (opioids and benzos)? Is a total abstinence approach the most statistically successful? anecdotal experiences of your own welcome. This would entail cannabis only (no alcohol).

i didn't post this in the recovery forum because its about staying high on cannabis.
Click to expand...
I've had much more success quitting hard drugs when I continued using marijuana. Actually I only began smoking weed a few years ago and it made me forget about my love for cocaine for awhile. I quit coke accidentally when I started smoking weed/shatter and .messing around with edibles.
 
The more I attend this website the more I realize there's no right or wrong answer and sobriety is such a grey area of "morality."

If you benefit from smoking regularly and it works then keep smoking! It's like quitting opiates with suboxone or something, it's still a "drug" per say but heroin is a soul-consuming monster and the other is relatively benign in comparison. Some people are super fucked up and hazardous to those around them without drugs lol, so I think it's okay to smoke a lil kush.

As far as addiction goes, in my opinion if you're only hurting yourself and not stealing from your friends and loved ones to score more drugs then seriously--why does society insist on people being sober while drinking themselves to death? Addiction really only a huge issue if it's hurting people in my opinion or you're absolutely and undeniably ruining your entire future. There are many meth users on this website who will not stop and manage to make it work in isolation. Mankind loves to determine the right way to live for others when it should be decided by the individual.

If you really wish to stay opiate-free and you also terminate your cannabis habit, then I think it's best if you smoke weed all over again should you relapse on harder things.
 
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