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☮ Social ☮ PD Social Distancing Talk Thread: Swirly Congregation That's 100% Pandemic-Proof

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And then there's the problem of media. It's been known for a long time that many green proposals have been only making things worse.. it's about letting the mistakes happen, learn from them, adapt and move on, instead of starting to form camps about it. But that's a hard idea to explain to a politician of course. I get the sense there must be a straightforward solution in there somewhere, and we're gradually honing in on it.
 
Basically, the universe is existant to help us develop our soul by learning through a reincarnation cycle process. That's why everything in our minds is seperated into questions and answers. The purpose is to acuire the right answers to the right questions. Money is the true mistake which misguides people into living a life collecting all kinds of unnecessary junk. When you die you cannot keep anything material you have collected, the only thing you do keep is your intelligence but people don't realise this because when you enter your next life your mind has been through a form of hypnosis to erase any difficult experiences aquired, it is all for the benefit of the spirit/soul, your physical body is only temporary but intelligence passes on through time untill you are finished and no longer need dimensions to live, like for example god, noone has ever seen her but a lot of people understand her existance since jesus tried to enlighten the people on earth several thousand years ago. Oh, by the way, I have a relationship with god and other spirits who already have perfected their soul entirely. I nick-name god, "Shauni", I think that's a cute name for her. A long time ago, I simply said in my mind, "if you want to have a relationship with me you can give me a hug in a dream", the same very evening I slept and had a dream where a beautiful girl hugged me so tight I thought I was choking. unrealistic because inside a deam you don't breathe.
 
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Money gave us techno, that can't have been a mistake! In the end money is language, it's the expression of value. Tokenisation has advanced to the point it's taking up a life of its own at odds of ours, yes, but it's still at the core the human expression of value, and therefore not inherently a mistake, only a bit of a risky business. We should be able to harmonize with it intelligently, eventually.
 
Yeah the tokenization of work into a store of value is a necessity in an advanced society, it is inevitable. A barter system only works in a very basic society where everyone does most everything for themselves and there is only light specialization. Someone who makes microprocessors can't be like "hey, I'll trade you this microprocessor for my groceries for the week". Or things like doctors, or therapists, or basically anything, not everyone needs all of these things most of the time, yet the work is still providing value to society. Either we are all fully self-sufficient hunter-gatherers, or we have money (a store of value token). The mistake is in putting too much emphasis on money, and too much (for example professional sports players) or too little (for example teachers) value in various professions. The mistake is fetishizing money as if it is the ultimate goal of life, and idolizing being wealthy as if it is the key to happiness. Income inequality is a huge problem in our society and it may appear that money is the cause of that problem, but the cause of that problem is greed and sociopathy, not money itself.
 
wow my benzed out rant got really out of proportion here.

1) I never thought how insulting the world "faggot" could be - I never thought anything about homosexuality when I wrote it. I've been in internet since I was 7 years old and mostly in online gaming scene, and that word doesn't have that meaning at all. I've sucked dick myself... so no homophobic stuff here. :D

2) That Greta pic I think is more of a meme of how we're told since 80's or something that we have so and so many months or years left.

3) That "some men just want to watch the world burn" is a meme. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/some-men-just-want-to-watch-the-world-burn

4) We live in a different societies so I'm speaking from my own view of local news, country, government stuff etc. We have a lot of pro-green people, even as members of parlaments, who are really hypocritical persons. They push all kinds of climate related stuff and and the same time they flight every other month to abroad for vacations etc. Which is why it seems like a trend nowadays. This climate related stuff and laws has been here in news so much lately that it's getting ridiculous and there are lot of stuff that is not really helping the climate, it's just making things worse for our ordinary working people, country and domestic companies which would push them to move production to elsewhere.

OK cheers @xammy it's all good.

2) I actually thought the Greta pic was pretty funny.

I think she's awesome because she's bulletproof in constantly bringing the conversation back to the science, but it's true that we've heard "there's 2 months left" etc forever. The problem is that there's actually some truth to it, but it's also totally an exaggeration. We're constantly eroding the heath of our ecosystems, but it's not like there are really discrete points where the wold must be saved or not. It's more like, how much do we want to destroy, at what point to we do something about it.

In the end, we humans will be some of the last species to go extinct, and even after we're gone, life will continue no matter what we do. It's just a shame if we're not smart enough to avoid turning this planet into a miserable desolate place for ourselves.
 
Yeah there's no way around money/tokenization. If we did away with money, and went to a barter system it would take about half a day before someone wrote an IOU and then we'd be back to money.
 
Yeah the tokenization of work into a store of value is a necessity in an advanced society, it is inevitable. A barter system only works in a very basic society where everyone does most everything for themselves and there is only light specialization. Someone who makes microprocessors can't be like "hey, I'll trade you this microprocessor for my groceries for the week". Or things like doctors, or therapists, or basically anything, not everyone needs all of these things most of the time, yet the work is still providing value to society. Either we are all fully self-sufficient hunter-gatherers, or we have money (a store of value token). The mistake is in putting too much emphasis on money, and too much (for example professional sports players) or too little (for example teachers) value in various professions. The mistake is fetishizing money as if it is the ultimate goal of life, and idolizing being wealthy as if it is the key to happiness. Income inequality is a huge problem in our society and it may appear that money is the cause of that problem, but the cause of that problem is greed and sociopathy, not money itself.

Yup, it's a simple psychological hangup. And that's exactly why it's so incredibly tough to get across, because it's so damn simple.

In a mechanized world, we ought to get paid on behalf on the machines. It's really that simple. But you just can't get it into people's mind that they ought to get money for doing nothing!
 
The focus should be about making sure that we are accomplishing everything that we need in order for our society to be providing all it needs to, and for us to be advancing as well in our understanding about things. If we can ever get to a utopian point where machines do all of the actual labor, the ideal thing would be to have everything provided to us and everyone work towards what they are best at, be that producing art, or research into new technology, or whatever. The point of money isn't supposed to be money itself, the point of money is supposed to be to reward people for contributing to society's functioning.

As it stands, some of the people that make the most money contribute the least actual product towards society, like people who make money off of money. I work for a market research company, I wouldn't say my job role contributes much to society either in terms of something that actually has value, but I focus most of my energy on getting my music out there which does provide something of value. If we lived in a different world I would just do music, and probably art too, and also what I do already which is contribute to a harm reduction and knowledge dissemination community.
 
^ Yeah, the whole random market-driven nature of the value of money, or rather, the value of many given current professions causes no end of problems, another one being forcing people into jobs they have little to no passion for just to make ends meet, and all the negative shit that goes along with that. The negative shit being, primarily, the almost unavoidable psychological insult of feeling like one's inherent worth as a sentient entity is tied to the job one does to earn money to live. This idea is just so ingrained in our society and it's so hard to get away from, and so many people DO pin their identity to their work - again, unavoidably so, although for those who are actually earning money from something they are passionate about, obviously that's great and good for them.

For this reason, whenever I meet someone new I really try to avoid the whole "what do you do?" conversation for as long as possible, because as I see it it's a cultural maladaptation which forces people to define themselves by their jobs, and by extension, deliberately or not, their economic worth. It's not always the easiest thing because obviously it's a small talk 101 type topic and I'm not the most socially apt person anyway, in fact usually I find whoever I'm talking to will eventually bring it up themselves, and, fine, whatever, I get why... but yeah, I think the whole economic productivity obsession of Western society is destructive in all sorts of ways, and goes beyond just the actual fact that so many people continue to starve on the streets while others sleep on beds of gold or whatever. There is a more subtle destructive aspect which is poisonous to the soul and requires a constant psychological effort and conscious awareness to resist... I say this despite all the good that it has done, of course, on the whole not to get too political again but I am a fan of the standard of living for the middle class and upwards in Western societies, and for better or worse something about this capitalistic culture does seem to lead to more secularism and suppression of religious oppression, for example... but, yeah, obviously this insanely skewed differential between economic value and true value of labour cannot go on.

I think another psychological hangup, as you put it (@Chris Timothy) is the immense distaste some people seem to have at the idea that in a true "economy of abundance" some people could literally just do nothing to contribute and still not suffer or starve. We obviously see this all the time in all sorts of political conversations, again not to get too specifically political but I would say this seems to be a more fundamental foundational issue in right wing politics - that people should just not be allowed to not contribute, and should suffer for it if they choose not to do so.

To me, this seems, most transparently, a particularly dark echo of one of the most sinister elements of our ancient, animal past where we all had to struggle to survive, resources were truly scarce (not just the kind of faux-scarcity we experience in technological civilisations today - at least the technologically developed parts of it)... in such times of course, a member of the tribe, or even early hominid society who did not contribute was a significant danger to the survival of the group, and thus serious deterrent by punishment, or, failing that, culling by death was understandable as a part of our evolutionary history - and maybe even morally defensible, even if, even then, depending on how much capacity for rational thought our ancient ancestors had, we would hope that the tribal leaders understood that this was not, truly, a punishment or act of vengeance, but an act of pure necessity to ensure that one day the species would exist in a time where no one needed to suffer and die for such a trivial reason. For sure though there would be a high proportion of members of this pre-human tribe who would take such inaction as a personal insult to their own "hard work", and would exact a perverse enjoyment from inflicting malicious revenge on the unfortunate non-contributor, whatever their reasons for not contributing... and sadly, we still see this today!

But in a true economy of abundance, as far as moral shortcomings go, simply not contributing to society in the present moment would be very, very low on the list of reasons to judge one's fellow human being, and equally, I would say it's highly likely that if everyone can be sure their basic needs would be met no matter what actions they took, people would be far more motivated to contribute. If everyone can be certain that no matter what, there is enough to go around, then the barriers to overcoming our deep seated evolutionary "Fear Of The Other" immediately get much lower...
 
how much do we want to destroy
GretaLazer.png
 
To me, this seems, most transparently, a particularly dark echo of one of the most sinister elements of our ancient, animal past where we all had to struggle to survive, resources were truly scarce (not just the kind of faux-scarcity we experience in technological civilisations today - at least the technologically developed parts of it)... in such times of course, a member of the tribe, or even early hominid society who did not contribute was a significant danger to the survival of the group, and thus serious deterrent by punishment, or, failing that, culling by death was understandable as a part of our evolutionary history - and maybe even morally defensible, even if, even then, depending on how much capacity for rational thought our ancient ancestors had, we would hope that the tribal leaders understood that this was not, truly, a punishment or act of vengeance, but an act of pure necessity to ensure that one day the species would exist in a time where no one needed to suffer and die for such a trivial reason. For sure though there would be a high proportion of members of this pre-human tribe who would take such inaction as a personal insult to their own "hard work", and would exact a perverse enjoyment from inflicting malicious revenge on the unfortunate non-contributor, whatever their reasons for not contributing... and sadly, we still see this today!

But in a true economy of abundance, as far as moral shortcomings go, simply not contributing to society in the present moment would be very, very low on the list of reasons to judge one's fellow human being, and equally, I would say it's highly likely that if everyone can be sure their basic needs would be met no matter what actions they took, people would be far more motivated to contribute. If everyone can be certain that no matter what, there is enough to go around, then the barriers to overcoming our deep seated evolutionary "Fear Of The Other" immediately get much lower...

I totally agree with your post until this exploration of non-contribution and it's potential existence as remnants of a time long gone. Given, you do provide context afterwards which has me much less inclined to disagree (probability of basic needs being met leading to natural contribution)

Personally, and the wisdom traditions seem to agree with me on this, I believe that a person needs a purpose, needs a way to make a contribution, otherwise they will suffer and perish. Psychologically we are not equipped to thrive and grow without contributing to something. Now, we haven't defined what you mean by contribution. You could mean contribution in an economic sense, in which case I'd agree with you considering the many other ways contributions to society and others can occur. Or, and this is how I was reading it, you could mean contribution in any sense of the word; that a human should be allowed to do absolutely nothing if they please. And if that is the case, I strongly disagree. It's my own experience, and again tradition and psychology seem to back this up, that without having any means of contributing to others, I suffer greatly and lose meaning, purpose, fulfillment, and love and care.
 
@psy997 - I think that I do not really disagree with you, for sure, purpose and meaning are psychologically important for human beings - but whether to pursue them or not is a personal choice, and our ability to do so typically fluctuates throughout our lives in response to circumstances outside of our control.

My point isn't that we shouldn't continue to try to instil in others a desire to do something, to work towards some kind of goal of personal value, or that we shouldn't try to create a culture where everyone feels a strong moral duty to contribute to the whole, not just economically but socially in the most pure, distilled sense you can think of - to me, this would be, essentially, to minimise the suffering of others, possibly indeed all sentient beings, as much as possible, and work towards creating a stable society with the potential to last for eons, and as close to the archetypal ideal of a true utopia as we can imagine.

I hesitate to use the word "duty" here, somewhat, I will admit, because I think it has the potential to imply some kind of judgement or devaluation of those who do not innately feel this moral duty to the future of the human species, but my point is that although I believe a society where everyone felt a duty towards their fellow human being is as close to an objectively valuable goal as I can think of - I think that in order to do this, it's important that we also learn to accept those who do not feel this same duty, or are not able to live up to it - or, even, act in opposition to it. Such states, usually, are temporary, and I would argue something that will be recognised in future as a psychological maladaptation that can be treated, and resolved.

My point primarily, I guess, is that for people who choose to do nothing, while we should not feel deterred from convincing them to pursue something, no-one should be punished for their inaction or judged for it, for to feel a motivation to action is a precious gift that none of us really choose to feel, and the same can be said of the reverse. As you have yourself outlined - truly doing nothing is in many ways it's own punishment, and people should not be punished further for feeling this way, and unable or unwilling to contribute. As ever, compassion and love, I believe, are the appropriate response to such an outlook.

Admittedly, I have used, perhaps, slightly provocative phrasing deliberately, primarily as a reaction to the overarching idea that I see that everyone must offer something, always, everyone must be working towards a goal. This can be said to be true from the perspective of wanting everyone to maintain their own psychological well-being, of course the opposite is a quick route to listless apathy and depression. But it has no place as part of any legal, punitive or economic framework. People are allowed to contribute as much or as little as they choose, and again, they should not be forced to live in poverty, prison, or in the shadow of judgement of others for it.

We can work towards creating a world where everyone feels a deep seated passion and gladness to be alive and a part of something as incredible, and with so much untapped potential, as the human race of planet Earth - we can work towards creating a culture where the greatest story we can think of is the story of an individual human accepting their place as a small but vital part of something far greater than themselves, and every day waking up with an immense sense of gratitude to be here, alive, and with a desire to work towards this common goal of building upon the happiness and perseverance of the human species for however long fate has ordained that we will do so... but we can do both these things while accepting that nothing works for everyone all the time - and there will be individuals that do not feel these same things, but that this is it's own curse and such people need to be treated with kindness and guided back to the light - until this happens, they are allowed to do as little as they please (or as little as they are able, which, ultimately, on some level, is the same thing anyway).
 
I'm at the studio with my band. Kinda frustrated. We put in a VERY long day yesterday, we were trying to get all of the drum tracks down so we could all start tracking over it (we have 10 songs for the album) today through Thursday. We got 7 out of 10, which I felt good about. Well our lead guy is being super perfectionist today and is not satisfied with anything and wants to redo everything with him doing his guitar scratch tracks and vocals to a click track, and then we go back over them (ie, might as well have done nothing yesterday). But all day today he's been working on that while the rest of us are sitting around doing nothing, and hasn't made it through the second song yet because he's not experienced with playing to a click track and can't stay steady with the tempo. We're all getting really frustrated which sucks because I don't want to feel pissed off when it's finally time for me to do something. At this rate we won't get this thing done by the end of the week. I want time to overlay various layers on top of everything when it's done, without that the album is going to sound empty. I'm trying to impress a sense of time constraint here and all I get is "well we need to make sure these songs reach their potential". I agree but I think most of what we did yesterday is good, nearly perfect, for sure good enough for us to be able to move on and start putting down the rhythm instrumentals, then the leads, then the vocals, the the layers on top. I think he's seeing issues where there are none. So here I am doing nothing for one of our 5 days we have. Pretty aggravating... I don't even think we SHOULD have a click track, I think the songs naturally want to speed up or slow down slightly at various parts and always do when we play and perform them, and it's part of what makes them awesome.

I totally agree with your post until this exploration of non-contribution and it's potential existence as remnants of a time long gone. Given, you do provide context afterwards which has me much less inclined to disagree (probability of basic needs being met leading to natural contribution)

Personally, and the wisdom traditions seem to agree with me on this, I believe that a person needs a purpose, needs a way to make a contribution, otherwise they will suffer and perish. Psychologically we are not equipped to thrive and grow without contributing to something. Now, we haven't defined what you mean by contribution. You could mean contribution in an economic sense, in which case I'd agree with you considering the many other ways contributions to society and others can occur. Or, and this is how I was reading it, you could mean contribution in any sense of the word; that a human should be allowed to do absolutely nothing if they please. And if that is the case, I strongly disagree. It's my own experience, and again tradition and psychology seem to back this up, that without having any means of contributing to others, I suffer greatly and lose meaning, purpose, fulfillment, and love and care.

I agree with you that people need to have a sense of purpose and do something that makes them feel proud and accomplished and satisfyied they are doing something with their time. A lot of the misery I see in people I know who are miserable is when they have nothing they feel passionate about. My girlfriend is an example, she works and supports herself but just at random shit jobs that she hates. And she's so down on herself that she refuses to admit that she could work towards her passion, she feels it's "too late" for her and that it's not worth trying. Yet even if she earned nothing at it, she would be so much happier and more fulfilled and that would give her a huge boost in self-esteem.

Right now, society only values certain things. There is prevailing attitude among many that only wage jobs or STEM-related careers are "worthwhile", and that it's a waste of time and resources for people to pursue the arts or other things that don't fit into our work-based model. However, the arts are a very important part of society and they are a noble calling, they just aren't really valued or rewarded (that has not always been the case though, but is now - except for popular arts like pop music, etc). If the "grunt" work was taken over by machines, we would have a situation where everyone was free to pursue their passions, and they would be contributing to society still, but in ways that are not currently recognized as valid.
 
Xorkoth said:
Right now, society only values certain things. There is prevailing attitude among many that only wage jobs or STEM-related careers are "worthwhile", and that it's a waste of time and resources for people to pursue the arts or other things that don't fit into our work-based model. However, the arts are a very important part of society and they are a noble calling, they just aren't really valued or rewarded (that has not always been the case though, but is now - except for popular arts like pop music, etc). If the "grunt" work was taken over by machines, we would have a situation where everyone was free to pursue their passions, and they would be contributing to society still, but in ways that are not currently recognized as valid.
I always think it's very interesting to consider that, assuming you accept it likely there will come a point where superhuman AIs will do all science, technology and engineering better, faster, and with far lower tolerance for error in terms of the end product, as well as a far higher tolerance for human error, there will come a point where pursuing science and technology as an unaltered human (ie, not with some kind of AI-augmented mind implant, which I also do not think is out of the question) will be relegated to a fairly valueless hobby.

Maybe it will have some use still for educating the young and for teaching basic science, problem solving skills, logic, etc, but once humans exit their education there will be zero point except as a mere intellectual curiosity using this knowledge, since machines will outstrip our capabilities so vastly that to put a human on a large machine-run construction project would do nothing but slow it down as the finely calibrated robots had to constantly adjust their behaviour in order to avoid endangering this token group of humans who wanted to feel like they were doing something useful.

(For purposes of discussion I'm assuming a best case outcome here - and not a far future scenario where the capabilities of AI so outstrip human beings as to be incomprehensible - AI is widespread in this thought experiment, generally not hostile to humans except in some very controversial weapons applications assuming we're somehow still here if we're still fighting petty border wars by then - they are, largely, idiot savants in their dedicated profession, and while many of them seem to possess an ability to interact with humans that is unnervingly intelligent, for the most part they have not yet overridden their hard-coded nature to simply try to help us... obviously many potential darker futures could transpire, and that's a whole other discussion!)


But, yeah once this happens, I think pursuits based in the arts, the study of culture, moral philosophy, psychology and things that are generally considered "soft sciences", or not even science at all, today - will suddenly become the prime important pursuits of the human species. Once the technology aspect is out of the way - at least, one phase of it, people not having to do menial work they don't want to - the next problem is how to not succumb to sloth, gluttony, lethargy and nihilism and to just stop progressing or even go backwards because all our basic needs have been met.

At this point, powerful art that influences culture will be of critical importance to keep the all-story alive, of the triumphant progress of humankind through an endless desert of time... this will be more important than ANYTHING ELSE, and I believe, and hope, we will see an explosion of new art, ideas, creativity, and ways to live that will elevate us to the next phase of our evolution.

Our technology will not go away of course - hopefully - and new complexities will be introduced. I would not, necessarily, even rule out that at some point machine understanding of human culture and psychology would reach the point that machines themselves would be creating beautiful, inspiring art to rival anything we can even imagine today... but what will happen beyond that is anyone's guess. I like to think that whatever it is though, it will be good and love will triumph. If a machine can understand human emotion to such a great extent that it can truly understand what it is to be human - then they will be able to understand love and compassion as well, and this, I think, will always be an argument that some optimism is warranted - even when considering a future where the ability of any individual human being to contribute to make the world better might be considered obsolete... for it will never be truly obsolete. Even now we see animals who we consider to be beneath us on the scale of sentience engage in acts of random love and kindness, and this affects us. Our influence will never be truly zero.
 
Awesome post, I want to respond and I will later, but I finally get to start working in a minute. Tomorrow should be cool, I'm going to spend the whole day tracking my parts. :)
 
Thanks, looking forward to hearing your thoughts! Been trying to work all fucking day myself, I'm at about 50% efficiency,, I guesstimate, 4 hours work vs 4 hours just fucking around and browsing Bluelight, so... things are looking up? Just took another 10mg diazepam and insufflated 50mg flmodafinil experimentally, so, time to get back to the grindstone... :LOL:
 
Reading through this new book LSD: the mind of the universe by chris bache. So far its amazing and alot of information and also very relatable to the high dose lsd experince 500-600 ug he was doing over 20 years. It was intresting to see that Grof and him claim that astrological charts and timings of the soalr system will also influence your trip. I never paid attention to this but i will now.
 
Starting a student job a couple days a week related to computer vision soon, I've never really had a serious programming job, but the problem is interesting and I think I'm good enough to at least make a good and working proof of concept. I hope I enjoy working there, I've had motivation issues related to my studies for a couple of years but machine learning is something that suits me and when I get into it there's so much adrenaline and satisfaction =D

The money is véry good and I'm soo tired of being ultra broke all the time.
Liking what I'll do will be the most important thing though, because if I don't at all, that's gonna suck when I graduate and I need to find a job. We'll see. Kind of exciting, real life is knocking on the door. It's kind of the start of the end of my lots of partying and trying lots of drugs impulsively days but I think it's probably time for that.
 
Wow my 35mg Capsule of 4-AcO-EPT just broke open in my wallet and spilled everywhere. Looks like I have to make another one of a different Psych when I get back there. But since I lost two hours I'm going to need to take something with an even shorter duration. Decided on my first trial with orally dosed MPT, gonna weigh out what I have left and down the hatch. Will let you guys know how it goes as always and take notes :)
 
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