The 2019 Trump Presidency Thread

[cduggles]

“There are also some cases in which immigrant families are being separated after coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum — thus following US law.”

The Trump administration’s separation of families at the border, explained

Why children are being sent to "foster care or whatever" while their parents are sent to jail.

www.vox.com

“Each day, dozens of immigrant families come to the US-Mexico border seeking asylum — and now the parents are being told that they’ve broken the law, are separated from their children, and are taken to jail.
The children, meanwhile, are swept into a completely different federal bureaucracy.
And there is no process to reunite the families.”

Trump’s separation of families at the border: a visual explainer

How family separation became a Trump administration strategy.

www.vox.com

“Still, even families that follow the proper procedure of seeking asylum at a port of entry are being separated on occasion, though it happens less often than when families cross between ports of entry. The lawsuits involving the Central American fathers and a Congolese mother are both documented cases in which families seeking asylum were separated after arriving at San Diego ports of entry.”

Family Separations at the Border, an FAQ

What's behind the Trump administration's policy of separating families at the border, how it's playing out in San Diego and what to look for next as the policy continues to test the courts and the public's patience.

www.voiceofsandiego.org

“Nicole Ramos, an attorney who provides legal help to asylum seekers in Tijuana, said she started to see an increase in family separations at ports of entry in May 2017.

Ramos has filed eight complaints related to this issue in recent months with the Department of Homeland Security’s Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, which investigates civil rights violations.

Separations at ports of entry have happened “even when families have presented sufficient evidence of parentage, even where they do not have signs of neglect or abuse … even when the child is able to speak for themselves and say” this is my parent, Ramos said.”

The Trump administration says it's a 'myth' that families that ask for asylum at ports of entry are separated. It happens frequently, records show

A woman named Mirian and her 18-month-old son reached Brownsville, Texas, early this year after fleeing Honduras, where the military had teargassed their home.

www.latimes.com

 

[Xorkoth]

You seem to think that a huge percentage of illegal immigrants are child molesters. Honestly dude most of the time I find your arguments well-articulated and reasoned even if I disagree with your conclusions, but this is nonsense. You honestly believe we're separating children from their families at the border to protect them from hordes of child molesters? For real?

 

[JGrimez]

“There are also some cases in which immigrant families are being separated after coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum — thus following US law.”

The Trump administration’s separation of families at the border, explained

Why children are being sent to "foster care or whatever" while their parents are sent to jail.

www.vox.com

“Each day, dozens of immigrant families come to the US-Mexico border seeking asylum — and now the parents are being told that they’ve broken the law, are separated from their children, and are taken to jail.
The children, meanwhile, are swept into a completely different federal bureaucracy.
And there is no process to reunite the families.”

Trump’s separation of families at the border: a visual explainer

How family separation became a Trump administration strategy.

www.vox.com

“Still, even families that follow the proper procedure of seeking asylum at a port of entry are being separated on occasion, though it happens less often than when families cross between ports of entry. The lawsuits involving the Central American fathers and a Congolese mother are both documented cases in which families seeking asylum were separated after arriving at San Diego ports of entry.”

Family Separations at the Border, an FAQ

What's behind the Trump administration's policy of separating families at the border, how it's playing out in San Diego and what to look for next as the policy continues to test the courts and the public's patience.

www.voiceofsandiego.org

“Nicole Ramos, an attorney who provides legal help to asylum seekers in Tijuana, said she started to see an increase in family separations at ports of entry in May 2017.

Ramos has filed eight complaints related to this issue in recent months with the Department of Homeland Security’s Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, which investigates civil rights violations.

Separations at ports of entry have happened “even when families have presented sufficient evidence of parentage, even where they do not have signs of neglect or abuse … even when the child is able to speak for themselves and say” this is my parent, Ramos said.”

The Trump administration says it's a 'myth' that families that ask for asylum at ports of entry are separated. It happens frequently, records show

A woman named Mirian and her 18-month-old son reached Brownsville, Texas, early this year after fleeing Honduras, where the military had teargassed their home.

www.latimes.com

Make sure you're not conflating legal asylum seekers with illegal border-hoppers. They are COMPLETELY different and I have no problem with them being treated differently because of the aforementioned reasons. Your quote:

"seeking asylum at a port of entry are being separated on occasion, though it happens less often than when families cross between ports of entry."
That's exactly the point I was trying to make and I agree with this. To then wah-wah over "separating families!" is disingenuous and typical anti-Trump nonsense.

Please answer this question - what's a good way to make sure adults are in fact the guardians of the children and not accompanying them to sell them into sex slavery? Or do you disagree that this is even happening?

You seem to think that a huge percentage of illegal immigrants are child molesters. Honestly dude most of the time I find your arguments well-articulated and reasoned even if I disagree with your conclusions, but this is nonsense. You honestly believe we're separating children from their families at the border to protect them from hordes of child molesters? For real?

Please don't misrepresent my argument. A child sex trafficker is not the same as child molester. A trafficker might not even touch the child themselves, but once they successfully cross the border illegally then that child is then sold into slavery where they are raped dozens of times a day by paying customers. THIS HAPPENS. It's quite prevalent, for you not to take it seriously to me seems unbelievably reprehensible. To deny, ignore, dismiss or deflect this in my opinion results in you being complicit in this practice.

Sex Slavery: Living the American Nightmare
Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery

If someone doesn't take this seriously and still cries family separation then I could not give a fuck about anything that they say. Because it shows that they hate Trump more than they like protecting children, which is pathological and bordering on sociopathic.

Also relevant:
80% Of Central American Women, Girls Are Raped Crossing Into The U.S.

 

[Xorkoth]

I take child sex trafficking seriously. But I just think you're reaching when you try to suggest that the child separation practices going on right now at the border are for the benefit of the children. It's a typical fear narrative to try to paint illegal immigrants as largely rapists/vile criminals/etc.

The "80% of girls are raped" article repeatedly states that it is unaccompanied minor girls. We're talking about taking families into custody for illegal immigration and then taking children away from the parents, we're not talking about unaccompanied minors.

I don't give a fuck if it's Trump's administration or someone else's. If they elect Bernie and he keeps doing it I'm gonna call foul. If Obama did it, then fuck him, I just didn't know about it then. This isn't about Trump.

 

[andyturbo]

Such a good impression of Trump ?

 

[cduggles]

Word for word, here’s the point you made:

If you don't wish to be separated from your family then don't cross illegally and get grouped in with all of the child sex traffickers.
Go to a legal point of entry and apply for asylum the correct way.

My reply included cases where families, as in genetically directly related people, were separated after presenting themselves at a point of entry and applying for asylum.

Meaning that people who do exactly what you recommend as a remedy still get separated. Savvy?

Make sure you're not conflating legal asylum seekers with illegal border-hoppers. They are COMPLETELY different and I have no problem with them being treated differently because of the aforementioned reasons. Your quote:

Okay, I made sure.

And the fact that you don’t care about family separation occurring in any situation, whether you consider it legal or not, illustrates a huge moral deficit. It’s a little hard to take your deep “concern” about children sex trafficking, pedophiles and whatever seriously when you’re advocating for family separation under any circumstances. It’s inhumane.

But I still met you on the shaky ground you stand on and provided evidence that your assertion that families who try to cross in what you consider the right way still get separated.

seeking asylum at a port of entry are being separated on occasion, though it happens less often than when families cross between ports of entry."
That's exactly the point I was trying to make and I agree with this. To then wah-wah over "separating families!" is disingenuous and typical anti-Trump nonsense.

Umm, no. See quotes above. ?

 

[JGrimez]

Meaning that people who do exactly what you recommend as a remedy still get separated. Savvy?

Yes you showed on occasion it does happen, but generally not. So imo it's not fair to label this as separating families when it's not part of the process of legal asylum seeking. The mother stays with the children. It's much easier to prove that children are with their legitimate parents/guardians if they apply for asylum the way that they're supposed to.

And the fact that you don’t care about family separation occurring in any situation, whether you consider it legal or not, illustrates a huge moral deficit. It’s a little hard to take your deep “concern” about children sex trafficking, pedophiles and whatever seriously when you’re advocating for family separation under any circumstances. It’s inhumane.

Temporary separation is not that big a deal, you're making it sound as if they're stealing children from parents who will never see them again. I do care about family separation but I also care about how people are twisting facts in order to attack Trump (and some people also pushing for open borders).

But I still met you on the shaky ground you stand on and provided evidence that your assertion that families who try to cross in what you consider the right way still get separated.

There's no policy to separate legal asylum seekers. It says on occasion which implies the majority are not separated.

I take child sex trafficking seriously. But I just think you're reaching when you try to suggest that the child separation practices going on right now at the border are for the benefit of the children. It's a typical fear narrative to try to paint illegal immigrants as largely rapists/vile criminals/etc.

All illegal immigrants are by their nature criminals since what they're doing is illegal. Asylum seekers are a different story. It's disingenuous how some people constantly conflate the two. If a man crosses illegally with young children then they must be separated until they can prove that they are not being trafficked and that the adult is their legal guardian. Do you have a better suggestion?

This isn't about Trump.

It really is about Trump which is why the media didn't mention it when it was Obama.

 

[JessFR]

I never cease to be amazed about how law abiding some people on bluelight seem to claim they are.

I for one couldn't give less of a shit if somethings legal or not. I care if something is moral or not. But if I cared so much about the law for the laws sake I would probably feel a lot worse about having spent so much of my adult life breaking it to get high.

 

[JGrimez]

I never cease to be amazed about how law abiding some people on bluelight seem to claim they are.

Ignoring drug laws is separate to things like welfare of children, violence, human trafficking etc

I for one couldn't give less of a shit if somethings legal or not. I care if something is moral or not.

Morality is more of a grey area. But when it comes to stuff like immigration, the rules are important. Otherwise there's just open borders and global chaos. No borders = no country.

 

[alasdairm]

Temporary separation is not that big a deal,

for you.

alasdair

 

[pancake cat]

I never cease to be amazed about how law abiding some people on bluelight seem to claim they are.

I for one couldn't give less of a shit if somethings legal or not. I care if something is moral or not. But if I cared so much about the law for the laws sake I would probably feel a lot worse about having spent so much of my adult life breaking it to get high.

It's probably a safe assumption that anyone who has a habit of committing crimes (especially crimes of sexual assault, pedophilia and stuff like that) wouldnt make it public?


Trump has been called a child molester in other forums, I'd have to read back and see if guilt by association to Epstein names him as being that here. Other public figures have escaped the attention despite there being long associations with him.


At least the child immigration policy has nothing to do with Trump and can be put to rest.


Detention centres are a great idea if keeping families together. Is the most important factor, will this catch on?

 

[cduggles]

So imo it's not fair to label this as separating families when it's not part of the process of legal asylum seeking.

It is happening, whether it’s supposed to be part of the process or not.

Temporary separation is not that big a deal, you're making it sound as if they're stealing children from parents who will never see them again.

Read some research about the trauma it causes to innocent children you claim to care so much about

There's no policy to separate legal asylum seekers. It says on occasion which implies the majority are not separated.

And? It’s happening.
Additionally, who do you think is compiling stats on this? The government?

I think at this point that you’re just trolling.

 

[Xorkoth]

All illegal immigrants are by their nature criminals since what they're doing is illegal.

You're conflating people trying to get into America for a better life without going through the proper channels (I mean the average wait til for legal entry if you don't have relatives and job lined up already in America is ~20 years according to the .gov website on the program), which yes, is a crime, with actual violent/deplorable crime like child trafficking/rape/etc. Basically you just said "hey, they're committing crime just by sneaking in illegally, obviously they're willing to traffic children, too". Quite a leap. It's equivalent to saying "those recreational drug users are criminals by definition because what they're doing is against the law, we should separate them from their children for the children's safety because they're probably molesting them". If I jaywalk, I'm technically a criminal. It doesn't mean I'm more likely to murder someone. I realize that is a more extreme example but the point is, there are many types and degrees of crime, and many reasons to be driven to commit various crimes. It is a crime to sneak across the border because we have a country boundary line there and made laws about crossing it. Most people do it to try to have a better life or to escape violence. These people are no more likely to commit heinous crimes than anyone else. Is child trafficking happening? Of course. But it's happening all over the world by all sorts of people. There's plenty of research and investigation into the trauma that these children experience because of these parental separations, which will affect them for the rest of their days. I mean for fuck's sake it's not hard to tell when hysterical fear from the child at being taken and terror from the parents that their child is being taken are real. And yet there are so many anecdotes of this happening. Of no record being made as to who the child belongs to. Of children being separated for months and living in squalid conditions. Of parents being sent back and the children not sent back with them.

Also, asylum seekers are having their children separated from them too. Asylum seekers are not being treated with dignity and compassion.

It really is about Trump which is why the media didn't mention it when it was Obama.

It's not about Trump to me. Like I said, If it was happening during the Obama era, I had no idea. I agree that the media is eager to lambaste Trump for anything but I still disagree with it and think it's morally reprehensible.

 

[cduggles]

The mother stays with the children.

No they don’t. Look at the case of the Congolese mother.

It's much easier to prove that children are with their legitimate parents/guardians if they apply for asylum the way that they're supposed to.

According to what sources?

Edit: Here’s a reference about child trauma in migrants that discusses family separation.

Migration, Separation, and Trauma

www.gse.harvard.edu

 

[JGrimez]

for you.

In context. As opposed to leaving them with someone who's attempting to exploit them (or worse).

It is happening, whether it’s supposed to be part of the process or not.

Can you tell me what % of legal asylum seekers are separated from both parents? That article made it sound like it was not common.

Read some research about the trauma it causes to innocent children you claim to care so much about

I didn't say it was good in any way I'm just saying temporary separation is nothing compared to what some of the more unfortunate children are going through. It's not even comparable. And it's absolutely necessary when kids cross illegally.

You're conflating people trying to get into America for a better life without going through the proper channels (I mean the average wait til for legal entry if you don't have relatives and job lined up already in America is ~20 years according to the .gov website on the program), which yes, is a crime, with actual violent/deplorable crime like child trafficking/rape/etc. Basically you just said "hey, they're committing crime just by sneaking in illegally, obviously they're willing to traffic children, too"

Not even close to what I was saying. I was comparing legal asylum seekers with economic migrants that are crossing an international border illegally. Your bleeding heart may consider them both legitimate immigrants, but then tell me how many economic migrants do you want to let into the USA? If you allow Person A to enter the USA illegally "for a better life" then how can you say to these other 300 million people "no" ? They all deserve a better life, let them all in. So how many would be OK for you?

And how about calling for the US to help fix their home countries?

It is a crime to sneak across the border because we have a country boundary line there and made laws about crossing it. Most people do it to try to have a better life or to escape violence. These people are no more likely to commit heinous crimes than anyone else.

IIRC illegal immigrants have higher rates of crime per capita (people confuse illegals with immigrants).

Is child trafficking happening? Of course. But it's happening all over the world by all sorts of people. There's plenty of research and investigation into the trauma that these children experience because of these parental separations, which will affect them for the rest of their days. I mean for fuck's sake it's not hard to tell when hysterical fear from the child at being taken and terror from the parents that their child is being taken are real. And yet there are so many anecdotes of this happening. Of no record being made as to who the child belongs to. Of children being separated for months and living in squalid conditions. Of parents being sent back and the children not sent back with them.

DON'T TAKE CHILDREN ON AN ILLEGAL DANGEROUS JOURNEY ACROSS AN INTERNATIONAL BORDER. Honestly the parents who do this should have their children removed from them. And again before you cry "better life" - DO IT LEGALLY. If a family isn't fleeing danger then the dangerous trip is not worth risking the life of the child. If they are fleeing danger then seek asylum through the proper channels. There is no good reason to take a child across the border illegally.

According to what sources?

This is obvious. Child sex traffickers are not going to apply as legal asylum seekers, and if they are then they must file applicants and attempt to prove their identity significantly increasing their chances of getting caught. So the process in itself is more effective for vetting people as opposed to the ones taking children across the border where they're not checked for anything. Same reason that most drugs are smuggled across the border where there's no guards as opposed to being trafficked through points of entry where there's law enforcement monitoring.

 

[Xorkoth]

Not even close to what I was saying. I was comparing legal asylum seekers with economic migrants that are crossing an international border illegally. Your bleeding heart may consider them both legitimate immigrants, but then tell me how many economic migrants do you want to let into the USA? If you allow Person A to enter the USA illegally "for a better life" then how can you say to these other 300 million people "no" ? They all deserve a better life, let them all in. So how many would be OK for you?

And how about calling for the US to help fix their home countries?

You made a point that was not responding to the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking about how many we should let in. I'm talking about how you literally said "All illegal immigrants are by their nature criminals since what they're doing is illegal. ", in response to me saying "I take child sex trafficking seriously. But I just think you're reaching when you try to suggest that the child separation practices going on right now at the border are for the benefit of the children. It's a typical fear narrative to try to paint illegal immigrants as largely rapists/vile criminals/etc. ". It was the very first thing you said in response to my statement. So if you didn't mean to try to insinuate that since they're committing a criminal act by crossing illegally, they're more likely to be child traffickers, then you did a very poor job of articulating yourself.

 

[pancake cat]

Read some research about the trauma it causes to innocent children you claim to care so much about

Would sending a child that could be settled in America, perhaps with relatives settled there already be better or worse for that child given the mother was returned to Bolivia?

If there were grave enough doubts of the parentage of the children (from either past history, lack of paperwork or concerns shared by other immigrants), its hardly likely kids will be kept with potential threats just in case they are innocent and are family. DNA tests take a couple of weeks maximum but the bureaucratic red tape and who knows what else crap would extend that to a few months. Theres probably more to that story than is known, they should at least ha e monitored daily calls regardless.




Are you saying that you genuinely care about these kids yourself since you are apparently against temporary separation in itself ° or are you just using this situation to be derogatory about a President?

Surely there's enough fuel to put on the fire if you are just about hating the guy without putting childhood traumas on him.


It's sad childhood traumas happen, being taken by anyone via a caravan (or by unseaworthy boat) would be traumatic, life as a kid is hard and not their fault they are in the position to be separated from parents.

It's not any guards or employees fault, kids can't go to federal prison unless a Colombian or Bolivian style jail that's run by gangs would be a better idea?



I doubt any migrant system would be so perfect, so flawless that no one would be separated like one Bolivian mother and a handful of other cases getting their day in court and not that much time in detention considering other countries take years.




VOX articles all seem to have the same angle.

 

[cduggles]

Can you tell me what % of legal asylum seekers are separated from both parents? That article made it sound like it was not common.

Again, who exactly is collecting the data? The government can’t even keep up with the kids they’ve traumatized.

I didn't say it was good in any way I'm just saying temporary separation is nothing compared to what some of the more unfortunate children are going through. It's not even comparable. And it's absolutely necessary when kids cross illegally.

It’s not necessary. It’s never necessary. And I wouldn’t climb up on a soapbox while defending family separation, but then I would never defend it.

Are you saying that you genuinely care about these kids yourself since you are apparently against temporary separation in itself ° or are you just using this situation to be derogatory about a President?

Yes. I genuinely care. And I used a few more sources than Vox.

 

[cduggles]

This is obvious. Child sex traffickers are not going to apply as legal asylum seekers, and if they are then they must file applicants and attempt to prove their identity significantly increasing their chances of getting caught. So the process in itself is more effective for vetting people as opposed to the ones taking children across the border where they're not checked for anything. Same reason that most drugs are smuggled across the border where there's no guards as opposed to being trafficked through points of entry where there's law enforcement monitoring.

How did you find out?

After all, you’re nitpicking for stats about unlawful government activity after I didn’t let you misrepresent what you actually asked and what my reply addressed. So show your cards.

 

[JGrimez]

You made a point that was not responding to the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking about how many we should let in. I'm talking about how you literally said "All illegal immigrants are by their nature criminals since what they're doing is illegal. ", in response to me saying "I take child sex trafficking seriously. But I just think you're reaching when you try to suggest that the child separation practices going on right now at the border are for the benefit of the children. It's a typical fear narrative to try to paint illegal immigrants as largely rapists/vile criminals/etc. ". It was the very first thing you said in response to my statement. So if you didn't mean to try to insinuate that since they're committing a criminal act by crossing illegally, they're more likely to be child traffickers, then you did a very poor job of articulating yourself.

I'm not sure you're getting me. Crossing the border illegally is a crime regardless of your intentions, therefore objectively by definition you are a criminal. Just for crossing the border, instead of going through a safe port of entry. Marking the illegal journey is pretty fking dangerous, and if someone is going to do that - and bring a child along with them, endangering the child's life - then yes I believe they should be separated from the child, at least temporarily to assess the situation. I know that it sucks for the kid and I feel for them but that's just the fking process, y'all actually should be mad at the individuals putting the children into this situation in the first place. IF the child is genuinely fearing for its safety then you seek asylum through the legal channels. It's not worth risking the child's life crossing the border. I think that a lot of people want open borders but don't understand the reality of it.

I guess you could argue for more government resources allotted to vetting asylum seekers quicker and I'd agree with you there. I'd also like the US to actively stop causing (and help fix) problems in their home countries.

Again, who exactly is collecting the data? The government can’t even keep up with the kids they’ve traumatized.

Well what data are you going by? Coz really we both know fuck-all about what's actually going on. This has become a heated political issue, so the media bias and propaganda is strong. There's a reason why there was no massive public uproar about Obama building those cages for children. In fact many people still love Obama and are only angry at Trump for the problems he inherited.

"A 2015 court order currently prevents the federal government from detaining children with their parents in detention centers for more than 20 days." Who was president in 2015?

Then Trump last year: Trump Signs Order To End Family Separations
The articles imply that Trump changed the law after Obama's policy and that this was a reversal. Can you prove that he did, and do you know to what extent? Or do you not really care.
Like I mentioned there a lot of media exaggerations I remember AOC crying for the children in a photo-op but later shown that she was crying in front of an empty carpark.
A lot of these immigration cases are handled by the states. I just don't see politicians doing much to show they actually care about the problem, they seem to be using it more as a wedge issue.

It’s not necessary. It’s never necessary. And I wouldn’t climb up on a soapbox while defending family separation, but then I would never defend it.

Sorry but you're wrong if you think that it's never necessary. I'm not sure why you don't understand that sometimes children are being trafficked across the border to be sold into sex slavery. That's a reality even if it happens way less than you think it does, it still happens. So the authorities are actually saving some of these kids by separating them from traffickers, generally cartels members, and hopefully returning them to their families. You understand the difference between this and "family separation", yeah? Some of these kids were already separated from their families by the time dangerous criminals were transporting them. In term of legal asylum seekers who are actually families, I agree that those children should not be separated.