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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2019ish

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who are you even talking about? seriously, define "the left".

my friend - we'll call her jane for privacy - lives in san francisco. she'd certainly identify as a lefty. is she a hypocrite? if so, why?

I just gave you an example. If your friend holds those 2 stances (and I'd bet a large % of self-proclaimed leftists would) then she/he/they is a hypocrite. Q.e.d.
Do you hold those stances?

As I've stated previously I'd consider myself quite Liberal. But I have nothing in common with the current insane and nonsense Leftist agenda.

this is without a doubt your wildest claim.
Not really. I've seen what ideas the Left espouses and how vicious they can attack (even their own) who are not on board with virtually everything that they say..

OK... Continue...
Another one would be people that consider the government fascist/oppressive/evil while also championing for gun control, so that said fascist government would be the only ones armed.
 
Another one would be people that consider the government fascist/oppressive/evil while also championing for gun control, so that said fascist government would be the only ones armed.

One thing I find very amusing when watching americans fignt about gun shit between themselves is the way a large number (usually pro) literly seem to lack the mental ability to distinguish between two completely different things.
Laws/regulations/restrictions and Prohibition are completely different things.

So JGrimez in order for me to understand you correctly could you confirm that its prohibition your refering too above?

If indeed it is than I agree completely. I don't at all support making guns illegal.
 
Laws/regulations/restrictions and Prohibition are completely different things.

In our constitution it says the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed" or something. That's where the controversy is.

The reality is, it's already infringed. Unless Jgrimez and others want to make the argument rocket launchers should be legal too, I see no reason why the government couldn't further specify exactly which arms we are permitted to bear.
 
Haha mal its interesting you said that as in past discussions that has been my response when people have used the constitution wording.

Ive said well then why is it illegal for you to posses a stinger SAM.

It makes me laugh the small group that get so so butthurt and defensive at any mention of a tiny regulation at... guys...do you actually know the definition of the word amendment??? lol.
 
Mod edit: this is a portion of a copied post. Original post in Trump thread.

In our constitution it says the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed" or something. That's where the controversy is.
from another thread:

there is a case to which those who aggressively trumpet the importance of the 2nd amendment often point: district of columbia vs. heller

they point to it because they believe it takes their side on the issue of individual gun ownership depending on membership of a "well regulated militia". they believe the case proves that the 2nd amendment gives individuals the right to bear arms. that's some pretty important case law, right? i mean it went to the u.s. supreme court! and the opinion was written by republican antonin scalia. so this case is important right? and right right?

here's an excerpt from the opinion of the court. not the dissent - the opinion:

"E.III Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

that's a little hard to read with those inline footnotes so here is just the text:

"E.III Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

there it is.

"...or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms." it's right there in black and white in antonin scalia's opinion for the court.

so, for example, background checks are constitutional.

"curtail" means to "reduce in extent or quantity; impose a restriction on". the government could impose restrictions on the sale of arms which a pro-gun individual might characterize as severe curtailment but which the court could decide were perfectly legal based on the heller decision.

alasdair
 
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Laws/regulations/restrictions and Prohibition are completely different things.

Good point.

It makes me laugh the small group that get so so butthurt and defensive at any mention of a tiny regulation at... guys...do you actually know the definition of the word amendment??? lol.

We have laws, they aren't enforced and/or are still allowing nutjobs to have access to guns. While the pushback from the right with claims of 'taking their guns' is an extreme response, it is forcing their view that we have laws that aren't achieving the expected results therefore where to draw the line? How about we enforce the existing rules, evaluate their effectiveness, THEN decide if more (or less) laws would improve the situation. Let's not assume more restrictions will work when the current restrictions aren't being enforced.
 
Good point.



We have laws, they aren't enforced and/or are still allowing nutjobs to have access to guns. While the pushback from the right with claims of 'taking their guns' is an extreme response, it is forcing their view that we have laws that aren't achieving the expected results therefore where to draw the line? How about we enforce the existing rules, evaluate their effectiveness, THEN decide if more (or less) laws would improve the situation. Let's not assume more restrictions will work when the current restrictions aren't being enforced.

Thats very interesting and something I havn't heard mentioned before from any of my American friends.

I agree that enforcement of current laws to a standard equal too most common criminal laws should be implemented. Then the game of wait, observe, analyze and conclude begins.
 
So JGrimez in order for me to understand you correctly could you confirm that its prohibition your refering too above?
Sorry I should have said banning guns/prohibition.
And I know that a lot of people who claim to just be about "gun control" have the ultimate aim to ban guns. It happens by incremental legislation and a slippery slope which is what gets the pro-gun people riled up.
I personally think there is a middle ground but only if the legislators are acting in good faith.

of course you would. there's no practical way of measuring it so you just claim victory based on an assumption.
I feel that you know that I'm right but you're using plausible deniability to say "you can't prove that!". So I may concede that there are certain claims I cannot prove (call it speculation) and I also concede that the absurdly obvious (in my opinion) may not be so obvious to others. You personally however I consider more of a contrarian that has a personal vendetta.

'the left' appears to be some nebulous entity comprised of people you disagree with or who disagree with you. it's an imaginary army of enemies who don't exist. I don't think even you know who precisely you're talking about. it's such a vague generalization it's next to useless (except for demonizing and dividing).
Are you denying that there's political wings and affiliations? I disagree with conservatives and the right-wing on a bunch of stuff. I'm pretty socially liberal, but I am anti-insanity. And the political movement today, known colloquially as "the Left" is insane. I know that not everyone is on board with everything that they push but many are. Pretty sure I've explained this to you before but when I mention the Left I'm talking about the people that are completely on board with the political movement. For eg the Leftists who saw the attempted late-term abortion laws that some Democrats were trying to pass and spoke out against them or resisted them, I respect those people. Or the Leftists who consider it a bad idea to take their children to pride parades or even resist teaching 5 years olds about sex. The Leftists who just go along with whatever they're told and support the agenda, those are the people that I'm referring to.

I'll try to be more specific and less divisive.
But sometimes you just have to walk away from a movement or label. I relinquished the term "liberal" even though that's what I am, the definition of the word changed.
Now I consider myself a political refugee or the politically homeless.

I've got issues with people who don't realize that gun control doesn't equal reducing homicide rates. I find those people either ignorant or propagandized to be useful idiots for an agenda.
If I ask someone - would you be OK with there being a lot of gun freedom if there was very little gun crime or murder in the society? And they say - no, I'd still want to ban guns - then I'm not going to take them seriously. Because the goal should be to reduce homicide rates and that's rarely brought up during the gun debate (same with defensive gun use).

Second, the argument you make also applies to yourself: Arguing against a lying president, when Trump has so many statements that have played out as untrue....you support this and think it is acceptable? If you answer is that Trump has never lied, you expose yourself as refusing to accept reality.

I don't deny Trump lies sometimes my point is that not all lies are created equal (WaPo Outraged That Trump Lies About Everything That Doesn't Matter)
So my point was less about lying but more so the act of lying about one's race in order to take a position meant for a POC. I just find it extremely hypocritical the people that shrieked about Trump's vague allegations of racism for years who will also excuse this behavior from Warren and support her. If she becomes the Dem nominee then the race attack card against Trump is pretty much off the table.
 
It's hard to believe this is even real. First of all yeah, who does talk like that? Also, is he saying he's totally destroyed and obliterated Turkey's economy before? Or that he's done so to some other country's economy? Is that true?



What's the last nail in the coffin for the democrats? Trump's twitter post?



But a lot of people don't. For example I want existing laws enforced so they can't be easily bypassed (gun show sales), and I want there to be an upper limit on magazine size and rate of fire. I don't want people to have their hand guns and rifles and other stuff taken away. I fully understand that guns don't kill people, people kill people. However guns are the easily available tool that makes it easiest to kill people. So giving people ready access to guns that can fire off 30, 50 rounds in a matter of seconds gives people who are inclined to commit mass murders a tool that allows them to do that much more effectively. Whereas if all they could get is a handgun, they'd be able to kill a lot less people before being stopped/noticed/etc. I think it makes sense to think this way. I understand also that at this point there are tons of them already in circulation, but is the answer "oh well I guess we're fucked, let's not do anything"? Making it so you couldn't go buy them legally would prevent some people who committed mass shootings from having the tools to kill more people more quickly. At what cost? So law-abiding gun owners can't have their favorite toy anymore? Mass shootings are happening almost daily, they're no normalized at this point that people are forgetting how horrible they are and prioritizing "because I want an AR-15 it'd fun and I like it!!" over "we could reduce the number of people killed in mass shootings".
I strongly disagree with you on the topic of guns. Fully automatic guns are absurdly easy to manufacture, and mass shooters will easily buy them, or have them made, or will make them themselves. Now that technology of gun making is here, the only answer is that everyone is armed with high capacity magazine automatics. Smarter people will evacuate cities for a life in the country, the less smart or able will remain in said cities, having to live surrounded with guns. And let's face it, when everyone has a gun, people tend to be much nicer to each other. Finally, mass shootings are a function of how broken society is, and not of how many guns there are. Now check the following link to witness the simplicity of making fully automatic guns. https://thehomegunsmith.com/pdf/Stengunplans.pdf
15570
 
a large number (usually pro) literly seem to lack the mental ability to distinguish between two completely different things.
Laws/regulations/restrictions and Prohibition are completely different things.
it may not be a deficiency in mental ability @andyturbo - often, in my experience, it's a quite deliberate decision to conflate the two.

any attempt to discuss any regulation - even 'popular' regulation like universal background checks which have traditionally enjoyed high levels of public support (even among gun owners) - is immediately painted as "the liberals want to take away all your guns" so it's immediately opposed without discussion of the merits.

alasdair
 
Finally, mass shootings are a function of how broken society is, and not of how many guns there are.

I fully agree with this statement. However, anything we can do to reduce harm is, IMO, a good thing. You reason that everyone having automatic weapons will help. Maybe it's so, but it's speculation, as is me saying that removing easy access to these guns will help. I just have trouble accepting that adding more automatic weapons will reduce gun violence.

We have a unique situation in America, it's true. Very few other countries have this sort of gun culture. Most European nations and Australia seem to be happy to not have guns everywhere, and they also have far less gun crime. But I agree the solution in America isn't to take away the guns. It's not realistic. I just don't think that giving people free reign to have whatever guns they want is going to help.

What we really need to do is excise the sickness at the root of the problem. We're being manipulated and set against each other so that everyone yells and screams and supports their chosen leaders while meanwhile almost everyone on both sides is working to erode our standard of living and turn us into a peasant working class while they rob this country of its bounty and eventually turn us into a "third world nation", while we fight with each other. So we have people so worked up with hate and rage and fear at their eroding quality of life that they decide to take out as many people as possible and then themselves. The only enemies we really have are the sociopaths running the show, who pit us against each other.

I don't think it's at all unfeasible to say that we are slowly moving towards a civil war type situation, if we stay on this path. More guns in that case is going to result in such a massive amount of death. I don't think arming everyone is going to end up being a good thing.
 
it may not be a deficiency in mental ability @andyturbo - often, in my experience, it's a quite deliberate decision to conflate the two.

any attempt to discuss any regulation - even 'popular' regulation like universal background checks which have traditionally enjoyed high levels of public support (even among gun owners) - is immediately painted as "the liberals want to take away all your guns" so it's immediately opposed without discussion of the merits.

alasdair

Its strange isn't it

Im glad you confirmed what illl
 
I fully agree with this statement. However, anything we can do to reduce harm is, IMO, a good thing. You reason that everyone having automatic weapons will help. Maybe it's so, but it's speculation, as is me saying that removing easy access to these guns will help. I just have trouble accepting that adding more automatic weapons will reduce gun violence.

We have a unique situation in America, it's true. Very few other countries have this sort of gun culture. Most European nations and Australia seem to be happy to not have guns everywhere, and they also have far less gun crime. But I agree the solution in America isn't to take away the guns. It's not realistic. I just don't think that giving people free reign to have whatever guns they want is going to help.

What we really need to do is excise the sickness at the root of the problem. We're being manipulated and set against each other so that everyone yells and screams and supports their chosen leaders while meanwhile almost everyone on both sides is working to erode our standard of living and turn us into a peasant working class while they rob this country of its bounty and eventually turn us into a "third world nation", while we fight with each other. So we have people so worked up with hate and rage and fear at their eroding quality of life that they decide to take out as many people as possible and then themselves. The only enemies we really have are the sociopaths running the show, who pit us against each other.

I don't think it's at all unfeasible to say that we are slowly moving towards a civil war type situation, if we stay on this path. More guns in that case is going to result in such a massive amount of death. I don't think arming everyone is going to end up being a good thing.
15575Well armed societies are generally more polite and peaceful, in the case of white and East Asian populations. It seems that IQ 85-95 populations are the most violent and dishonest, making other populations bound to be armed in the presence of those within said IQ span. As far as European countries being less violent goes, you've overlooked the fact that those countries are predominantly white, and of IQ around 100. France is an excellent example of this, being pretty peaceful until a ton of African and Arabic immigrants flooded its streets, turning Paris into some Somali shit hole awash with blood. Not having guns didn't stop islamists from butchering and raping everything European in their way. Likewise, in my country, the most violent parts are those with dumbest people in them, and they don't need guns to slash, rape, murder and steal, usually from those who are unarmed "because it's the law!".

15576Furthermore, these gunners do the gunning predominantly among disarmed populations and within cities. Cities are cesspools of humanity, where everything is perverted, including safety of people there. Such things would be pretty impossible within rural settings where everyone knows everyone, and troublesome individuals are sniffed out early on, and taken care of. Eroded standards of life do not push anyone into murderous actions, but propaganda and shekels very much do. It is all to easy for those with billions of fiat currency in their pockets, to find, arm and direct various losers into becoming mass shooters, thus ensuring the outcry of the people for removal of guns from themselves, thus preparing them to be an easy target for whatever police state their society is going to turn into. Freedom is expensive, and is paid for by the length of a barrel of a gun. No guns - no power - no reason for anyone not to enslave you.
About the sociopaths running the show, look into alliance between old European monarchies, the bankers from Vatican, and their Zionist banking proxies that do the dirty work by printing cash, thus stealing everyone's savings, among many other things, environmentalists being part of their many forces.
And something to groom your paranoia with bitter truth:
 
Sorry, memes and tweets aren’t going to cut it.
Here are your maps, including one from 1900:



Here’s what the 1900 skin tone map actually shows, with a link to the abstract from which it came:



Here’s the original FBI report this meme was allegedly created from, without the graphic or supporting data:


Here’s a source for the graphic though (a little biased):


Please do better.

Edit: I’d finish ripping it apart, but I think my point is made. You’ve been had.

There is a guy you should meet here, though... ?
 
Eroded standards of life do not push anyone into murderous actions

Snowy: meet the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, most other revolutions that have occurred throughout history - actually, just meet world history, that would be easier.

As for the relationship between homicide/IQ/rape and regions of the world, this has already been irrefutably - beyond discussion, even - explained by levels of cake consumption. Lower cake levels = more murderous gun rampages and rape, for obvious reasons. And who controls the cake supply? George Soros - who knew just how evil that man was??

Regarding this topic generally, everyone (including infants, newborns etc) should - imho - possess an arsenal of 250 miniaturised concealable 1000-megaton thermonuclear devices, each with a range of 15000km (teachers, though, should have 500 each to deter school nukings). This will guarantee the safety of the populace 100%. I completely trust all the other people in my country to never use the lethal force they have at their disposal, because we are all sensible and we are all in it together. Onwards, Christian soldiers!
 
Sorry, memes and tweets aren’t going to cut it.
Here are your maps, including one from 1900:



Here’s what the 1900 skin tone map actually shows, with a link to the abstract from which it came:



Here’s the original FBI report this meme was allegedly created from, without the graphic or supporting data:


Here’s a source for the graphic though (a little biased):


Please do better.

Edit: I’d finish ripping it apart, but I think my point is made. You’ve been had.

There is a guy you should meet here, though... ?

How did you ripped my arguments apart, exactly?
 
Snowy: meet the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, most other revolutions that have occurred throughout history - actually, just meet world history, that would be easier.

As for the relationship between homicide/IQ/rape and regions of the world, this has already been irrefutably - beyond discussion, even - explained by levels of cake consumption. Lower cake levels = more murderous gun rampages and rape, for obvious reasons. And who controls the cake supply? George Soros - who knew how just how evil that man was??

Regarding this topic generally, everyone (including infants, newborns etc) should - imho - possess an arsenal of 250 miniaturised concealable 1000-megaton thermonuclear devices, each with a range of 15000km (teachers, though, should have 500 each to deter school nukings). This will guarantee the safety of the populace 100%. I completely trust all the other people in my country to never use the lethal force they have at their disposal, because we are all sensible and we are all in it together. Onwards, Christian soldiers!
Ok, joke in the face of the reality and see how you fare.
 
Actually, I'm British you infidel @andyturbo , which is why I *alone* among this lot of heathens understand the importance of cake in literally EVERYTHING. I'd quote you something Marie Antoinette once said but it would go over all your heads.
 
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