Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2019ish

[Captain.Heroin]

Apparently just one shooter? Could be more than one?

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Drug Warrant Leads to Misleading Headlines

So the guy who was shooting at cops in Philly was being served a drug warrant...

I've got an easy solution to that, and it doesn't involve infringing on 2nd Amendment rights.

The shit that happened in El Paso and Dayton recently was horrific, but the fact that the media is portraying this scenario as anything but the police attempting to commit immoral acts REALLY irks me.

It's laughable the police even tried to talk him down. You try and put a man in jail for life for something that shouldn't be a crime and it's no surprise when he'd rather go down fighting and take a few of you with him.

 

[Xorkoth]

I guess the way I see it is that you can't lump this into the mass shooting category. It's people being arrested fighting back so it shouldn't be seen as a mass/police shooting IMO. Police shootings are like when cops minding their own business get gunned down.

Agreed though, don't blame the cops, blame the laws.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

What are you talking about bro? Was that towards me?

I can second the fact that CH was not aiming that at you. There's a few voices in here that believe ALL cops are bad and shooting them is justified under any circumstances. Likewise, there is a (smaller) voice that feels those who serve in the Armed Services are baby killers and capitalist war mongers (ignore that they may have limited other choices for employment, or that they are following orders as opposed to making such decisions). And, well, it's pretty obvious there is a lot of hate of Trump - not just on this site.

Spend a bit more time here, get the temperature of the room and it's inhabitants, you'll see this. Moreover, you'll see how the more frequent posters write, and what sort of angle or tone they tend to use. He wasn't targeting you.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I guess the way I see it is that you can't lump this into the mass shooting category

6 cops injured. Definition for consistency appears to be 4+ injured in a shooting. This will be part of the stats.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well okay I'm just saying, I think of mass shootings as unprompted attacks, not as a result of police raids on drug dealers.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

barely got to page 2

Apparently just one shooter? Could be more than one?

Drug Warrant Leads to Misleading Headlines

So the guy who was shooting at cops in Philly was being served a drug warrant...

I was wondering how much attention this might be getting outside of local news.

Related - Crowd Taunts Philadelphia Police Officers, Laugh At Them In Midst Of Gunfire During Standoff In Nicetown-Tioga

But back on this subject,

Philadelphia Mayor Jim Kenney called for more gun control, saying the city's police officers need help keeping weapons out of the hands of criminals.

"It's just something that, we need to do something about it," Kenney said at a second press conference Wednesday evening. "And if the state and federal government don't want to stand up to the NRA and some other folks, then let us, let us police ourselves. But they preempt us on all kinds of gun control legislation."

"Our officers deserve to be protected and don't deserve to be shot at by a guy for hours with an unlimited supply of weapons and an unlimited supply of bullets,” Kenney said.

“It's disgusting and we got to do something about it and we need to do something about it quickly,” he said.

What's disgusting is that we HAVE laws in place to prevent this and they aren't being enforced. For starters, this guy shouldn't even have a gun: Maurice Hill: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

As a felon, Maurice Hill was legally barred from possessing a firearm; in fact, he was previously convicted in federal court of illegally doing just that (being a felon in possession of a firearm). You can read Maurice Hill’s extremely lengthy state criminal history here. Over the years, many criminal charges ended up not being prosecuted by authorities, including firearms offenses and accusations of reckless endangerment.

Spoiler: nolle prossed = dropped charges

So tell us .... what law would have prevented this situation? Would it not be better to enforce the laws we already have? The ones he broke repeatedly?

 

[TheLoveBandit]

“What Percentage Of Crimes Committed With Illegal And Legal Guns”

The linked article is actually copied to many sites, so don't rely on just this one. I do recommend giving it a read as it does a pretty good job of outlining guns used for crimes, and does link to some supporting data. But the part that was shown to me and I pass along here is:

If the question is actually “What percentage of criminals legally buy a gun and commit a crime with it,” the percentage is extremely small. The last data suggests that a fraction of one percent of those who commit a gun related crime will legally purchase a gun and then commit a crime with it. Most of those crimes are “crimes of domestic violence,” essentially crimes of passion, and the gun happened to be in the house. If no gun were present, some other weapon, knives, clubs, fists or something else, would have been used instead. While the overwhelming majority of professional criminals will use stolen “street guns” that are cheap but very definitely illegal.

However, if the question is “What percentage of crimes are committed with legally purchased guns” the answer is about six percent of murders – and very few other crimes. Amateurs buy guns at a dealers; which involves extensive paperwork, identification, FBI background checks, and so on. Pros buy guns on the street, where the only requirement is money – or other valuta.
...
We do have a handle on the source of guns recovered from persons arrested and accused of a crime. Of guns recovered from persons arrested and charged with a crime:

84 percent of those guns were stolen in a burglary; including 4 percent stolen from a relative or a friend.

6 percent of those guns were confiscated and resold by a “law enforcement officer.” Legalized armed robbery, in other words.

2 percent of those guns were stolen from the police or the military.

2 percent of those guns were stolen from a parcel or delivery service.

More spefically

February 2, 2015 Update In an update to cover the decline in crime and criminal gun use since this was posted: The 2013 National Crime Victimize Survey report there were almost exactly 300,000 crimes, including murders, facilitated with a firearm.

Of those, not more than 5,000 can be shown to have been facilitated with a firearm legally purchased by the offender.

1.67% is the number of crimes committed by persons with legally purchased firearms. The problem isn't to further restrict legal gun owners, but to address a) mental illness with access to weapons, b) criminals released for violent crimes, and c) the large blackmarket of firearm sales.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I guess the way I see it is that you can't lump this into the mass shooting category. It's people being arrested fighting back so it shouldn't be seen as a mass/police shooting IMO. Police shootings are like when cops minding their own business get gunned down.

Agreed though, don't blame the cops, blame the laws.

The optics of a roped off block, all the cop cars, 6 cops being shot, I think it deserves a notice in here. These scenes of violence, etc. are important to keep a track of IMO.

I was wondering how much attention this might be getting outside of local news.

Related - Crowd Taunts Philadelphia Police Officers, Laugh At Them In Midst Of Gunfire During Standoff In Nicetown-Tioga

But back on this subject,



What's disgusting is that we HAVE laws in place to prevent this and they aren't being enforced. For starters, this guy shouldn't even have a gun: Maurice Hill: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

Spoiler: nolle prossed = dropped charges

So tell us .... what law would have prevented this situation? Would it not be better to enforce the laws we already have? The ones he broke repeatedly?

LOL the cops were BEING TAUNTED aahhahahahahaa. Oh god. So rich. Of COURSE the "liberal" media i.e. CNN won't do a separate piece about that. Thanks for keeping me in the loop.

So tell us .... what law would have prevented this situation? Would it not be better to enforce the laws we already have? The ones he broke repeatedly?

Criminals cut deals all the time, if these deals weren't being cut every defendant would demand his day in court, and much like the backlog of cases on illegals you'll have a shitshow to attend to for whoever knows how long.

I don't think there's a way to make DA's do their jobs other than getting the right ones in office to begin with. There's a lot of money and greased axles there though.

1.67% is the number of crimes committed by persons with legally purchased firearms. The problem isn't to further restrict legal gun owners, but to address a) mental illness with access to weapons, b) criminals released for violent crimes, and c) the large blackmarket of firearm sales.

Indeed, and when they cry for longer waiting periods and I point to cases of people owning these guns over a year it boggles their mind.

No alternative perspectives or ideas given normally. It's important to look at the facts - thanks for listing this statistic. That's surprisingly low.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

LOL the cops were BEING TAUNTED aahhahahahahaa. Oh god. So rich.

In fairness, it was a local reporter who tweeted that while reporting from the scene. She later tweeted "Well, it was 98% ok, just getting bad there for a while with the taunting"

Criminals cut deals all the time, if these deals weren't being cut every defendant would demand his day in court, and much like the backlog of cases on illegals you'll have a shitshow to attend to for whoever knows how long.

Yeah, a YUGE backlog of cases to work through....once. Then the perp serves time (yes, increased prison costs incurred, but) and the streets are safer, crime is down, and the concept of making laws regains it's teeth - the same teeth that can then be adjusted to rational sentencing (ie, no more crack >>> cocaine type punishments). All this talk over needing more laws...when the ones we have aren't used. Pointless.

 

[cduggles]

‘Banning assault weapons’ thread merged into this one.

 

[cduggles]

One thing in this article surprised me:

Last year the FBI published an examination of a study it had conducted covering active-shooter incidents – defined by the FBI as one or more people trying to kill others in a populated area – from 2000-2013. The review looked into pre-attack behaviors and motives in an effort to prevent or minimize the number of such tragedies in the future.

In 21% of the cases, investigators were unable to ascertain the reasons behind the bursts of violence, which were planned for at least a week 77% of the time.

That last figure may come as a surprise to those who believe mass shootings are often the result of a mentally unbalanced person “snapping.’’

John Wyman, Behavioral Analysis Unit chief for the FBI, said shootings are actually “planned, predatory acts’’ usually prompted by a combination of factors that include stressors such as interpersonal conflicts, financial strain, mental health issues (though not necessarily illness), legal problems and substance abuse.

The linked FBI study summary looks interesting as well. ?

Weeks since Gilroy, El Paso and Dayton: What if motives behind mass shootings never emerge?

As the U.S. grapples with a rash of mass shootings, families are left to wonder what prompted the violence. But many times there are no clear answers.

www.usatoday.com

 

[cduggles]

Dayton gunman had drugs and alcohol in his system, coroner says

Connor Betts was hit by at least two dozen police bullets through gaps in his body armor, coroner adds; judge keeps friend who bought him the armor jailed

www.cbsnews.com

The gunman in Dayton who killed nine people had cocaine, an antidepressant and alcohol in his system during the mass shooting, and was cut down by a barrage of at least two dozen police bullets that penetrated gaps in his body armor, a coroner said Thursday.

Montgomery County coroner Dr. Kent Harshbarger said authorities found a pipe device and a baggie of cocaine on 24-year-old Connor Betts. Harshbarger also reported in his preliminary autopsy findings that Betts had more than 50 entry and exit wounds.

"This incident involved an intense firefight that is rarely seen other than combat and an active-shooter incident," Dayton Police Chief Richard Biehl said. "The officers were confronted with a moving shooter wearing body armor, actively executing victims with an AR-15-type weapon and high-capacity magazines."...

 

[cduggles]

‘We have to start building institutions again’: Trump again links guns and mental health

“These people are mentally ill,” Trump said of mass shooters, “and nobody talks about that.”

www.politico.com

President Donald Trump on Thursday advocated the return of more mental health institutions to combat gun violence, while also throwing his support behind background checks for gun purchases.

Speaking with reporters in New Jersey before heading to a campaign rally in New Hampshire, Trump said that mental health was an under-considered factor in gun violence and that his administration would examine it “at a level that hasn’t been done before.”

“These people are mentally ill,” Trump said of mass shooters, “and nobody talks about that.”

Mental illness is a frequent talking point among Republican lawmakers when dealing with gun violence, to the consternation of their Democratic counterparts, who argue that the United States’ unique, widespread access to guns is to blame. Critics of the idea that mental illness leads to gun violence also argue that it stigmatizes mental illness and reinforces the unproven idea that mental health correlates with violence.

Trump argued that institutions for people with mental illness — whom “we can’t let … be on the streets” — were necessary to curb gun violence.

“We have to start building institutions again because, you know, if you look at the ’60s and ’70s, so many of these institutions were closed, and the people were just allowed to go onto the streets,” Trump said on Thursday.

“That was a terrible thing for our country.”
Trump reiterated his views during a rally in Manchester, N.H, later Thursday night, using dated terms such as “insane” and “deranged.” Rather than proposing methods for treatment, he spoke about the need to keep those with mental illnesses isolated and off the street.

 

[JGrimez]

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjugated races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjugated races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police."

-Adolf Hitler

 

[alasdairm]

These people are mentally ill, and nobody talks about that.

if by 'nobody' he means 'just about everybody' then, sure, nobody talks about it.

like his "who knew the whole health insurance thing was so complex?". answer: everybody.

he's disconnected from reality.

alasdair

 

[w01fg4ng]

Instead of being vague and off-topic

lol Trump is never going to do that.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Birds of a feather

 

[w01fg4ng]

Is this your first day in America?

 

[yepyepwoah]

Is this your first day in America?

Here in 'Murica, we argue with feelings and not with thinking or logic.

Here in 'Murica we deflect and avoid cogent questions with "well this is what I think your guy does so I'm not gonna do anybetter"