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US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

JessFR said:
The mueller report is full of evidence of obstruction... Have you read it yet?
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No I don't feel the need to read the drivel as I knew a long time ago it was a nothing-burger.
Can you explain any examples of obstruction and describe or present any corresponding evidence?

JessFR said:
If the president obstructs an investigation into him, any president, regardless of the motive of the investigation and regardless of his innocence of the suspected crime being investigated, then he should be removed. Wouldn't you agree?
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A legitimate investigation yes. An illegitimate and potentially criminal witch hunt based on fabricated evidence? Then no. So motive does matter, otherwise you're arguing for banana republic-style coup tactics.

JessFR said:
Imagine if it were Hillary Clinton as president and she obstructed investigation into her crimes, regardless of the motive, if the obstruction were proven, wouldn't you want her removed? I sure would.
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You're completely ignoring context and nuance and unnecessarily simplifying the issue. And it's funny you mention that because we have DIRECT EVIDENCE that Hillary Clinton obstructed the investigation into her illegal bathroom server - we know for a fact that she destroyed evidence that was subpoena'd.

So should we go after the crimes that we have evidence for that happened earlier, or go after the guy that we don't have evidence on? Guess the answer depends on how honest or politicized one is.
 
JGrimez said:
The people who compiled this report are dodgy criminals
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Yep this was the conclusion I thought die-hards were going to make. Okay, let's wait for the report to see if it clears him. If it does, cool, if not, Mueller's a criminal and it's all lies. Except you seem to be contradicting yourself. Is the report vindicated him and it's accurate and therefore Mueller is a stand-up, objective guy? Or does it have damning evidence, and therefore, Mueller is a dodgy criminal? You seem to be saying both.

JGrimez said:
No I don't feel the need to read the drivel as I knew a long time ago it was a nothing-burger.
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Okay then, I've made my point.

Can I list examples? Yes but give me some time I'm about to make dinner and do some stuff and it'll take some time.
 
Yeah no. If you can't be fucked reading the report, and think mueller is "dodgy criminals", I most certainly won't waste my time getting examples you can just claim to be either fake, or not as bad as they sound, or misinterpreted, or justifiable.
 
Shadowmeister said:
Yep this was the conclusion I thought die-hards were going to make.
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It wasn't a recent conclusion. I was aware of this ages ago. Mueller was FBI Director when Russians were illegal exporting uranium that Clinton/Obama sold to Putin. Mueller personally delivered uranium to Russian officials so it was pretty obvious that their "collusion" (not even a crime) accusations against Trump were baseless (and hypocrtical to the point of absurdity). They were desperate. Trump won and they needed to de-ligitmize his presidency, i.e. portray it as if he did not win legitimately.

Shadowmeister said:
Okay, let's wait for the report to see if it clears him. If it does, cool, if not, Mueller's a criminal and it's all lies. Except you seem to be contradicting yourself. Is the report vindicated him and it's accurate and therefore Mueller is a stand-up, objective guy? Or does it have damning evidence, and therefore, Mueller is a dodgy criminal? You seem to be saying both.
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No I thought I said it clearly - no further indictments, no evidence of collusion or obstruction. That's all that matters. This has all been a big distraction from real issues that nobody wishes to delve into. This investigation was a farce, an attempted coup, and Mueller was directly involved.

JessFR said:
Yeah no. If you can't be fucked reading the report, and think mueller is "dodgy criminals", I most certainly won't waste my time getting examples you can just claim to be either fake, or not as bad as they sound, or misinterpreted, or justifiable.
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Can you give me ONE example of obstruction then?
You're kinda proving my point. Just like I knew this was a farce investigation 2 years ago, the same I know that the Mueller report is full of either BS, or vague accusations that some people will try and twist into something exaggerated.
 
Mueller investigfation is done. Cooked. It was a big pile of lies.
Mainstream media made a ton of money stringing people along for 2 years.

I'll wait for any example of "obstruction" from the final death throes..
 
funny you drone on about facts and importance of making your own mind up and blah blah blah and yet you won't even read the report.

obvious conclusion is obvious.

alasdair
 
On second thought I'm not gonna bother spending time pulling together cited examples from the report, since you just think it's made up nonsense by a criminal FBI agent anyway. Go ahead and revel in your perceived victory. Just one question for you. If Mueller is such a corrupt and politically-motivated guy, why would he not come to a stronger conclusion than "no collusion" and "no conclusion either way on obstruction"?
 
we're wasting our time there @Shadowmeister - mind made up and anything disagreed with is 'fake news'. just like trump. not a little ironical.

here's what i can tell so far:

there was no conspiracy but plenty of evidence of activities which could have led to actionable collusion if they played out:
  • papadopolous trying to arrange meetings between trump and putin
  • russia trying to hack clinton's email after trump's call to find the emails
  • manafort and gates providing campaign polling data to a russian 'spy'
any reasonable analysis of the report concludes that:
  • the russian government attempted to help trump win the election
  • trump's campaign had numerous concerning ties to russia
  • the trump campaign was open to benefitting from russian help

on the obstruction issue, mueller looked at 10 instances of possible obstruction including:
  • trump's directing mcgahn to fire mueller
  • trump's attempts to have session 'un-recuse' himself and end the investigation
perhaps most telling of mueller's conclusions on obstruction was that trump's efforts "...to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests."

anybody reading the report and concluding that it's a 'nothingburger' and trump is magically exonerated has their head in the sand - deliberately or otherwise.

alasdair
 
Shadowmeister said:
On second thought I'm not gonna bother spending time pulling together cited examples from the report, since you just think it's made up nonsense by a criminal FBI agent anyway
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this is why it's pointless to waste time on people that are acting in bad faith - they're not interested in debate, or truth, or anything except forcing their bullshit down everyone else's throats no matter what it takes. people that act in bad faith do everything they can to shut down debate, and they're extremely successful at it, through bullying, intimidation, lying, ignoring everything that doesnt agree with the narrative they're pushing, etc, and drive away everyone that dares to disagree with the echo chamber they desperately work to create

I'd love to see some post/activity data for times when members that are known to act in bad faith are around, to see just how much they kill activity. while I can name many individuals that have been driven away by bad faith posters, that can simply be handwaved away as "confirmation bias" or sampling bias
 
lol Former Attorney General Michael Mukasey shuts down CNN's Chris Cuomo on the "Mueller Report"



I wonder why Rosenstein just quit? Maybe he was forced out by Trump and that's more obstruction of justice?
 
JGrimez said:
My question is - why now? Why not keep the lie going into 2020 to try and hurt Trump during the election?
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Good question. A simple answer is that he has integrity and delivered the report when finished investigating, as well as knowing that it would interfere with an American election to have an open investigation going during it.

JGrimez said:
So now it's - there wasn't any collusion, but there were signs that showed there COULD have been collusion in the future!
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No, what the thing you're quoting that doesn't show up in my quote of you states is that Trump gave orders that would have amounted to conspiracy (collusion is not a legal term) had the orders been carried out, but his people refused to do so, knowing it would have broken the law.

I know you'll say those are lies that are made up to make it seem like he was trying to collude, but if you take them as truth, that's very troubling, that our president would have to have his orders countermanded in order to not do illegal things.
 
JGrimez said:
I wonder why Rosenstein just quit? Maybe he was forced out by Trump and that's more obstruction of justice?
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Or because Barr chose (and Trump approved) Jeffrey Rosen as his own deputy general, as one is wont to do.

cduggles from PBS article about Rosenstein's departure said:
As the new leader of the Justice Department, Barr was entitled to select his own deputy. He and Trump nominated Rosen, leaving no room for Rosenstein.
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Rosenstein's departure date coincides with Senate approval for Rosen.
 
JGrimez said:
The only obvious conclusion here - which I stated 2 years ago - is that Trump did not "collude with Russia to influence the election".
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How did you know this two years ago, before the investigation had started? If you "know" something without having any evidence for it- and you couldn't have had any evidence- you inadvertently discredit yourself. Discussing fact is more useful than opinions or faith-based/ideological beliefs. You cannot argue against something that someone believes for no reason at all.
 
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