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US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

I can't see where i typed you HAVE to be left to hate trump but you can't deny its the left who has the majority of trump haters.
I don't read many Republicans bitching about some of the dumb shit that i hear from people on the left .
I ses people here posting pictures and making fun of people's appearances because their a trump. I thought the liberal left was against bullying and making fun of people's appearances, only when its a PR move though , if they don't like you your free reign. A bit hypocritical isn't it?
Just like bashing trump for having sex with a porn star is god awful but Clinton taking advantage of an intern is ok
 
Well you said the left has a hard time letting it go. So from your post it was my impression you were suggesting it's largely only the left who want trump gone.

The right may not bitch about dumb shit about trump, but they bitch about dumb shit about Democrat presidents and presidential candidates.

And yes of course it's hypocritical. The left are often hypocrites. Crying about the need for tolerance yet finding a million reasons they shouldn't have to show it themselves towards people who believe the wrong thing. They just excuse their intolerance by saying they don't have to be tolerant towards fascists or intolerant people. Which is just code for anyone who isn't also ultra left. But the right are hypocrites too. Like all those antigay politicians getting caught cheating on their wives with men. Trumps a hypocrite. The whole lot of them, right and left alike are hypocrites. My point is that you don't have to be ultra left to hate trump. I don't hate trump for having sex with porn stars. I hate him cause he's a narcissistic egomaniac who has no loyalty to anything or anyone but himself.

Which is why I think the right are foolish to support trump. Trump isn't part of the right, his loyalty is only to himself, not to conservative ideology. The right are just convenient allies.
 
The left isn't having trouble letting go. The release of Mueller report has not put this to rest. Only Trump's own appointed attorney general has read it so far, and he released a short summary of his interpretation of the findings and then tried to keep anyone else from seeing it. Even HE didn't say the report exonerated Trump from obstruction of justice, only Russian collusion. Once the public can see it (and hopefully not every other line is redacted, that would be super sketchy), and I can see it, THEN I'll let myself make a conclusion. I'm not trusting a guy that Trump put in office to give the full story here. The report hasn't proven anything yet, until everyone else can see it, too. I'd say the same thing if it was a Democratic president. I generally identify as a Democrat but I think both parties are fucked and I really only identify with Dems because voting/registering independent or third party is pointless, unfortunately, and I agree far more with the Dems' social policies.

instead of working together for the good of the people your all to busy slinging shit at each other

On this we can absolutely agree. It's risen to absurd levels. Politics is more powerful than religion these days in the 'ol US of A. People are so tribal. Politics is only about mudslinging these days.

I ses people here posting pictures and making fun of people's appearances because their a trump. I thought the liberal left was against bullying and making fun of people's appearances, only when its a PR move though , if they don't like you your free reign. A bit hypocritical isn't it?

Yes, it is.

Just like bashing trump for having sex with a porn star is god awful but Clinton taking advantage of an intern is ok

I didn't approve of that either though it is hypocritical that the right actually impeached Clinton for it (I mean yeah it was for lying under oath but that was just an excuse) yet are acting like it's no big deal that trump has paid hush money to multiple women and has had multiple sexual assault charges (since before his presidency). Personally I don't think that kind of stuff really should factor into the presidency (I mean JFK was a notorious womanizer for example but a great president). Both sides are just using petty insults like that as weapons (for example, constantly talking shit about AOC's intelligence or her dance she did in a video from when she was younger. it's stupid that's the right doing it. Both sides are doing it and it's so stupid and destructive and turns the whole thing into a grade school name-calling contest.

Though if Trump's lawyer used campaign money to pay the hush payment to Stormy Daniels as was reported, then that's a clear violation of the law. Clinton also violated the law by lying under oath about it, but it would be nice to get it all out in the open wouldn't it?

I can't see where i typed you HAVE to be left to hate trump but you can't deny its the left who has the majority of trump haters.

Well yes, things are so tribal here that many on the right refuse to admit that some of the things the left complains about are problems, so they justify them or refuse to acknowledge them. The left is eager to oppose the right so practically all of them are vocal against Trump for anything they can find to be opposed to.

I dislike Trump as a president because he has pushed through a host of damaging policies, particularly against the environment but also against education and social safety nets. And he's a buffoon in international relations and is alienating our allies and cozying up to those who have traditionally been our enemies. I think he's done far more damage than he has done good though there are a few policies of his I think have been good things. It also seems overwhelmingly clear (and has since before he ever ran for president) that he's a full-on narcissist and is only looking out for himself.
 
Okay wow this will take a lot of time to get through, however in perusing the tables of contents, I can see that there are 2 sections redacted entirely in section 3D titled "Trump Campaign and the Dissemination of Hacked Materials". There are also 2 sections pertaining to individuals in 5C4 related to "Russian Government Outreach and Contacts - False Statements and Obstruction of the Investigation - Application to Certain Individuals". The list of subsections for individuals includes Manafort, Flynn, Cohen, and other key people, but Trump's name is not on the list, and obviously he was checked into, so obviously they redacted that entire section too. So... the report appears to contain a lot of info about Russian operations into election meddling in general (it is clear this happened and also during Clinton's campaign as there is information on Russian hacking into her campaign as well), but sections specifically discussing Trump's connection are removed. Seems sketchy as hell. I hope at least Congress gets to see an unredacted version. It's difficult for me to imagine how someone could consider this to be a smoking gun that Trump is innocent and uninvolved. It seems, instead, quite suspicious that these sections would be removed. Hell one of the sections under how it relates to individuals in obstruction of justice is omitted for the reason "personal privacy". Gimme a break...

Oh also section 5B2's header: Potential Section 1030 Violation By [Personal privacy]. 8)
 

Which means... What? I'm sure it's tempting to think it means he knew his people had engaged in a conspiracy with the Russians. But while I really hate trump, I could easily interpret it as trump actually believing the investigation would be a witch hunt.

It's hard to take much from what trump says in this way, because he's the kind of person who lies to himself. The kind of person who I think could directly order his people to collude with Russia, mentally rewrite doing that out of his interpretation of reality, and STILL really believe there was no collusion.

Which isn't what I'm saying happened of course, neither am I saying that this (or anything else) is how I think you interpreted this remark. All I'm saying is that trump is a the kind of delusional narcissist who always believes he's in the right and will perform impressive feats of mental gymnastics to come to believe any reality he chooses.

The kind of person who would be utterly hellish to work for. One of if not the worst kinds of bosses to work for. Which is why I'll never he OK with him being boss of the American Federal government.

In fact I've thought for a while that perhaps one of the biggest reasons he gets so upset over his tax returns is that it would give people a better idea of his total wealth. And whole most people would be satisfied with being a billionaire. Trumps not. He needs to be rich beyond imagination. He needs to believe it and have others believe it. So he's disinclined to do anything that would damage that perception. It's truly pathetic.

As for the report, it's huge, I've only just started reading it. It'll be a little while before I can look back and say how I think it's impacted my belief on all of this. I'm just glad it's finally out.
 
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I have my suspicions about the entire sections that were redacted (especially the ones where the reason is "for personal privacy reasons" - WTF?) but I have only read the TOC so far as indeed, it's yuuuuge. I can only imagine the redactions present within sections. But I digress because I can only imagine them, as I said, since I have not read them yet. Just a quick summary of the TOC does not leave me with confidence.
 
I have my suspicions about the entire sections that were redacted (especially the ones where the reason is "for personal privacy reasons" - WTF?) but I have only read the TOC so far as indeed, it's yuuuuge. I can only imagine the redactions present within sections. But I digress because I can only imagine them, as I said, since I have not read them yet. Just a quick summary of the TOC does not leave me with confidence.

I am not concerned. It's a huge report (BTW I find it hilarious that one of the two volumes is about trumps attempts to stop the investigation), and so far all the redactions I've seen don't strike me as suspicious.

I see no real reason to believe there's any massive bomb shells hiding behind the redacted portions. But no doubt that's what some will choose to believe no matter what.

Though perhaps I am unlike most people in that, while I really hate trump. It's not going to make any difference to me whether or not it's established that he or his campaign engaged in a conspiracy with the Russians.

I already have plenty of reason to hate the guy, having one more won't change much about my evaluation. So I'm not in this desperate to see evidence that a conspiracy existed. Cause it won't really change anything about my evaluation of him.

The guy is already a sexist narcissistic egomaniac with no respect for the law or the limits of his office and a worldview that borders on delusional. Isn't that enough?

EDIT: By the way I apologize if I implied that you're looking for him to be guilty rather than having genuine doubts based on what you're seeing. My comments on this are directed very broadly, not at you specifically. I don't think there's reason to think there's anything major being redacted. If you disagree that's fine, it's for you to work out if you really think there's something to that or if you just want there to be something to that. It's not for me to assume your motives. I'm just saying generally that I suspect many people are looking for reasons to see the answer they want to see.
 
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Overall, I don't trust Attorney General Barr after his recent performances, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt based on his experience, etc.

Very disappointing.

Well I don't really trust him either. But there's a big difference between an extremely large report from mueller with a few redactions in places that could be justifiable. And him giving his own short "interpretation" of that report.

I tend to trust the former, but not the latter.
 
I dunno I mean in the persons of interest section I mentioned above, there are 2 sections redacted (each section is a name) and Trump's name doesn't appear as a section. So... Trump's section was obviously redacted. It would have been included in the report. Yeah maybe there's a good reason. But it's also awfully convenient.
 
I'm starting to read through this and oh man are there are a lot of redactions, way more than the TOC would seem to indicate. I mean I can buy "harm to ongoing matter" in some cases but I sure hope Congress gets to read the unredacted report because how am I supposed to trust the redactions aren't information suppression? Seriously skim through the thing even, there are so many.

And now Trump is freaking out and saying the whole report is fabricated and Andrew Napolitano from Fox News is saying it might be enough to prosecute him. Or that due to DOJ opinion that you can't indict a sitting president, they're going to do it the instant he's out of office.
 
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it's pretty obvious from even a cursory read that the president and his top advisors frequently and freely distort the truth and often lie outright. the standard of behavior in the trump administration seems to be set marginally above 'just avoid prosecution'.

i think we can finally put this "he's a real straight shooter" bullshit to bed...

alasdair
 
it's pretty obvious from even a cursory read that the president and his top advisors frequently and freely distort the truth and often lie outright. the standard of behavior in the trump administration seems to be set marginally above 'just avoid prosecution'.

i think we can finally put this "he's a real straight shooter" bullshit to bed...

alasdair

Aww, but I want that joke run into the ground. :)

But yeah this is why I tend to doubt the redactions matter that much. Because it still paints a very poor picture. Seems like if you were going to try and whitewash the thing you'd just not release it at all.
 
the report basically seems to confirm everything we all already knew but couldn't necessarily prove, but nothing that's overtly criminal enough for a federal prosecution, which says nothing about his innocence or suggests there's nothing more to be done here. "not enough to bring federal charges" says there's plenty to work with, but it's being left for others to pursue

which also means it's not damning enough to secure a conviction in the senate if he gets impeached (a congressional indictment)
 
I was actually shocked enough people voted for him. Its just sad to see what is supposed to be one of the good democratic counties go so bad in such a short time.
Him saying "im fked" is basically admitting guilt. Does this mean its over or are there still charges that can be made?
 
I was actually shocked enough people voted for him. Its just sad to see what is supposed to be one of the good democratic counties go so bad in such a short time.
Him saying "im fked" is basically admitting guilt. Does this mean its over or are there still charges that can be made?

It's not over until he's out of office. There can always be new questions posed. New evidence discovered. New crimes committed. This chapter with the mueller investigation is over. But the fight to stop trump won't be over till he's either stopped, or loses office.

I expected him to lose to. In hindsight I see now that I overestimated the voting American public. Probably one of the biggest political miscalculations I've ever made.

I foolishly thought more people would care about his sexism and sexual assault than actually did. And I naively thought more people would be put off by his narcissistic delusional egomania. Big mistake on my part.

The lesson is, never overestimate the voting public.
 
I think he got in by playing on people's fears. Like the whole banning Muslim countries, that wasn't done for the safety of Americans but he used 9/11 to incite hate. Not something a leader of a western country should ever do.
Im not exactly sure how your voting gets counted, the electoral system makes no sense to me, but doesn't a state like California carry more vote weight then say Idaho?
 
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