Those who have used Cardarine / GW50151 - what are your thoughts on the cancer risks?

[Vastness]

Recently been reading a bit about Cardarine / GW50151 - seems almost like a miracle drug apart from the unfortunate fact that development and most further research was abandoned after indications that it massively proliferated the growth of cancerous tumours, in rats at least, and with a high enough dose over a long enough time.

It seems to be a somewhat unsolved question whether it's actually a carcinogen itself, and, if it is, whether this potential for carcinogenesis translates into a substantial danger for humans that is more pronounced than, say, the carcinogenic risk of drinking a little alcohol at the weekend or smoking the occasional cigarette (there are probably more examples of known carcinogens that even health-conscious humans sometimes choose to imbibe, but these are the ones that come to mind).

Unfortunately I realise that the research just probably is not there to answer this question one way or the other and it's unlikely I'm going to be able to get more of a definitive answer here than what I can already surmise from browsing the existing research and myriad of informed and less-informed opinions elsewhere on the internet, but nonetheless... those of you have used Cardarine (or, perhaps, just looked into it) what are your thoughts on the cancer risk, and if you did decide to use it (and assuming that getting cancer is something you'd rather not do) what was your reasoning that this was not a significant enough risk to be concerned about?

Anyone who never considered using it but might have some scientific input on the current research as it relates to these risks, please also do feel free to chime in!

 

[Swim15]

From what Ive read, the study that found cancer in rats seemed to be poorly executed and, to my knowledge, no studies have replicated the same results in rats or humans.

It is more or less a miracle drug for fat loss, endurance, and some pretty amazing effects at decreasing LDL similarly to statins and increasing HDL as well.

All of that said, Im generally hesitant about using peptides and research chems that haven?t been used in humans very long so Ive kept my usage pretty limited.

I plan on watching human trials and if things still look good then it will be a staple for me and probably should be for most using AAS.

 

[Genetic Freak]

From what Ive read, the study that found cancer in rats seemed to be poorly executed and, to my knowledge, no studies have replicated the same results in rats or humans.

It is more or less a miracle drug for fat loss, endurance, and some pretty amazing effects at decreasing LDL similarly to statins and increasing HDL as well.

All of that said, Im generally hesitant about using peptides and research chems that haven?t been used in humans very long so Ive kept my usage pretty limited.

I plan on watching human trials and if things still look good then it will be a staple for me and probably should be for most using AAS.

Care to post a link I'd be interested to read.... Thanks..

 

[Vastness]

^^ ARE there human trials in the pipeline? It was my impression that all research on humans had been abandoned indefinitely.

I have read a few arguments criticising the rat cancer study, mainly on the basis that they were given quite large doses even taking into account somewhat arbitrary rat->human conversion ratios, the study was done over 2 years which obviously for a rat is an especially long time, and the substance was administered with some other biomarker which is a known carcinogen (I forget the details on this last point, but something along those lines).

What bothers me though is that I haven't read any critique of the existing research by any actual scientists (or even anyone who claimed to have some kind of science background). The only places I've really seen these arguments used are the broscience brigade over at reddit and various shady looking SARM sites with a link to purchase the stuff at the end of a long and transparently one-sided article about it's purported benefits.

It just feels to me there must be something missing from the story, not necessarily something hidden, just something not obvious to the layperson, because surely for such a miracle substance if the aforementioned criticisms do indeed have merit then the researchers should have seen this too and GSK would have wanted to try again in another study with a different approach... but, perhaps there's something I just don't understand about drug R&D at big pharma.

 

[Swim15]

Check out Pro Muscle, there?s been some good discussion over there and some incredibly knowledgeable members/health care professionals.

I?m currently in the hospital from an ulcerative colitis flare up so I?ll have to see if I can dig that stuff up when I?m out and can get on my computer. Think there should be links on the pro muscle threads as well

 

[Genetic Freak]

Check out Pro Muscle, there?s been some good discussion over there and some incredibly knowledgeable members/health care professionals.

I?m currently in the hospital from an ulcerative colitis flare up so I?ll have to see if I can dig that stuff up when I?m out and can get on my computer. Think there should be links on the pro muscle threads as well

Your nutritional intake is poor..

 

[Swim15]

Your nutritional intake is poor..

Dont think so but thanks for the unsolicited assumptions. I was exposed to an infection by a patient in a hospital while shadowing a physician and is what caused the flare. I dont think improving my already great nutrition would have likely prevented that

 

[Genetic Freak]

Dont think so but thanks for the unsolicited assumptions. I was exposed to an infection by a patient in a hospital while shadowing a physician and is what caused the flare. I dont think improving my already great nutrition would have likely prevented that

I'd actually been reading a paper on fiber intake and it's possible link to ulcerative colitis smart arse.. If your immune function was working optimally you wouldn't have caught anything..

 

[Swim15]

I do appreciate a lot of your knowledge and advice Genetic Freak but, lets be real, to suggest that if someones immune system is functioning properly that they are impervious to infection or disease is asinine at best.

About the same as suggesting someone immigrate internationally because their food supply is contaminated due to national use of pesticides. Obviously not even remotely realistic or practical for the vast, vast majority of people.

Since colitis is more or less a lifelong disease, and also an autoimmune condition, I guess by definition that my immune system isnt fully functioning. This is something thats obviously manageable, more so for some and less for others, but the world isnt perfect. Nothing will ever function 100% perfectly. People will get sick, people will get infections.

I can say that the two times Ive had flares have been some of the most miserable and painful experiences of my life and I would never wish them on anyone. I can assure you that my priorities are on preventing them if possible as its not something I ever hope to have happen to me again. But, again, suggesting that anyone is impervious to disease (or not) due to their diet/immune system is fucking absurd.



But, since you are all knowing, feel free to critique my diet - this has been roughly the last 6-8 months after some adjustments but not insanely different from before. Also, you cant critique me living in the US as all of our food apparently sucks (not that I necessarily disagree) but moving internationally doesnt work for me.

This is a sample - fats and oils are interchanged between mainly evoo, avocado, coconut, grass fed butter, eggs, and a few nut butters. Veggies are interchanged, brussels sprouts, spinach, kale, beets, mushrooms, snap peas and a few others are typical every week.

Most of my carbs are from fruit and the rest are typically jasmine, quinoa, or Ezekiel bread.

Fruits are interchanged typically kiwis, mango, blueberries, and apples every week. Fruits and veggies are organic, meats are antibiotic/hormone free, eggs are organic. Meats can be interchanged with high quality whey or AUS grass fed beef since the health food store down the street always has sales on it.

Meal 1
2 whole eggs
6 egg whites
Olive oil/fresh avacado
3/4c oats
Organic coffee & cup almond milk

Meal 2
(Very) Large salad, mixed greens
5-6oz chicken
3 sliced apples or 4 kiwi and dried berries
Usually evoo and champaign vinegar for dressing

Meal 3
5-6 oz chicken
2 cups veggies, sauted w/ evoo or coconut
1-2 cups fruit or 4 kiwi

Pre-Workout
1 cup jasmine rice
20g whey

Meal 4
5-6oz chicken, sometimes grass fed ground beef
1c jasmine rice
1 cup fruit
1-2 cup veggies


Obviously outlines - I make a lot of Mexican/Asian meals with the above stuff slightly tweaked to fit but when Im busy I tend to stick more to the above outline.


Oh - and I usually supplement about 10g of oat fiber, 10g green banana flour, and 20g psyllium husk fiber per day as that as the only reliable treatment Ive found in the past couple years for flare ups and helping to keep them in remission. Some people with UC will have the opposite reaction but me and another friend that have both been diagnosed have found that fiber (has to be both soluble and insoluble together for me personally) is one of the only reliable things to control symptoms.

Edit - forgot to mention that I regularly mix in fermented foods and have either Greek yogurt, kombucha, sauerkraut, or kimichi daily in my diet.

 

[Genetic Freak]

I do appreciate a lot of your knowledge and advice Genetic Freak but, lets be real, to suggest that if someones immune system is functioning properly that they are impervious to infection or disease is asinine at best.

About the same as suggesting someone immigrate internationally because their food supply is contaminated due to national use of pesticides. Obviously not even remotely realistic or practical for the vast, vast majority of people.

I can say that the two times Ive had flares have been some of the most miserable and painful experiences of my life and I would never wish them on anyone. I can assure you that my priorities are on preventing them if possible as its not something I ever hope to have happen to me again. But, again, suggesting that anyone is impervious to disease (or not) due to their diet/immune system is fucking absurd.

suggesting someone immigrate internationally I was joking.. But in reality the suggested level of glyphosate contamination is so widespread that might be not such a bad idea..


to suggest that if someones immune system is functioning properly that they are impervious to infection or disease is asinine at best.

But, again, suggesting that anyone is impervious to disease (or not) due to their diet/immune system is fucking absurd.

Believe what you will but there is emerging science to strongly suggest lifestyle choices influence immune function and therefore future disease potential.. (I thought I'd recently shared links to this)..

Your diet (on paper at least) looks excellent, but again there is very likely glyphosate contamination causing epithelial tight junction dysregulation from any of the foods you mention, I'm not being an arse, but unfortunately that is a very real possibility for any food produced in the US..

 

[Swim15]

Obviously lifestyle and diet impact immune function, no one will argue that. To say that I, or anyone else, ?wouldnt have caught anything? is still absurd as that obviously isnt the case and even people with the strongest immune systems get sick and are susceptible to disease or infection.

Honestly, Ive mostly just been a dick the past week because of the absurd amount of pain Ive been in so dont take this too personally. Just have seen a lot in your posts that comes off as flippantly wild suggestions and seem to assume that people do not care which got to me.

Ill be the first to say that my immune system isnt bad but isnt optimal either. Hence the diet and supplement regimen ive adopted over the past few years. I happen to live in a place where I have a plethora of environmental allergies as well and am going to move the first chance I get but sadly have to make due until then. Which means histamine intolerance is my next area of research...yay

 

[Genetic Freak]

Obviously lifestyle and diet impact immune function, no one will argue that. To say that I, or anyone else, ?wouldnt have caught anything? is still absurd as that obviously isnt the case and even people with the strongest immune systems get sick and are susceptible to disease or infection.

Honestly, Ive mostly just been a dick the past week because of the absurd amount of pain Ive been in so dont take this too personally. Just have seen a lot in your posts that comes off as flippantly wild suggestions and seem to assume that people do not care which got to me.

Ill be the first to say that my immune system isnt bad but isnt optimal either. Hence the diet and supplement regimen ive adopted over the past few years. I happen to live in a place where I have a plethora of environmental allergies as well and am going to move the first chance I get but sadly have to make due until then. Which means histamine intolerance is my next area of research...yay

I actually only comment on what I know, or what I've recently read or understand.. A few years ago I might have spent days finding research to back up a statement, I've been on forums for the best part of 20 years and I neither have the time nor energy for that level of commitment anymore... So i've reverted to flippency..

 

[Tony Williams]

I've used Cardarine and I really like.it, I don't think it burns fat like people make out. If you enjoy cardio then this will add more horsepower to you.

I found 20mg to be right. It's very good in PCT and is supposed to hold onto gains abit and fight the fat rebound or you can run it midcycle for extra fat.

The cancer thing is scary as every rat developed it. Let's remember they were on it 2 years thats thier whole adult life would you be on it 18-80 years old?

Also those rats get cancer very easy. The sun and aspartame may give you cancer but that doesn't stop people lying in the sun and drinking diet cola and smoking.

I personally would only use it for 2 months. Then stop, maybe twice a year between cycles.

The point of Cardarine was to prescribe to people with cholesterol problems or overweight for a very long time.

It's very sad that they stopped the studies as people are using it now. I think Glaxo should do studies on normal doses for 6 months and see what happens. To emulate like 40mg for 2 years straight.