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How should gender or sex be defined?

PriestTheyCalledHim said:
I've seen Japanese porn, where people's nude bodies having vanilla sex, or like sex that's not a kink but just basic sex acts like oral sex, vaginal sex, etc. are completely censored which was odd? :? Yet I remember when disgusting Japanese porn that involved women putting eels in their ass or vagina and having sex with an octopus-basically a live version of what was once in popular hentai like la blue girl?-and a woman shitting and vomiting went viral online and friends would instant message me the links on chat programs.
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if you want to see truly cultured hentai, you should check out Bible Black and Ail Maniax ~Inma Seifukugari & Majogari no Yoru ni~

alasdairm said:
i am learning that there is a correlation between political leaning and empathy and compassion.
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Political Orientations Are Correlated with Brain Structure in Young Adults
 
Like I said, within the last decade I walked into a large shopping complex in Tokyo and there was an entire floor devoted to child pornography. There are many places to eat in the city with naked Korean girls instead of tables. People who've never spent any time in the seedy underbelly of Japan have no idea what the place is actually like. Watching anime and Googling stuff doesn't mean you really know what it's like there (or, at least, was like there very recently). The censorship laws and the blossoming Japanese feminist movement are a reaction to their somewhat extreme sexual culture. This would probably be better suited to a discussion about Japanese culture. My point was that bishonen is not a good example of gender fluidity.

@invegauser: I'm going to read your comments anymore.
 
ANT, my post was about the complex relationship between biological sex and gender and how that is reflected in fashion, including trends reflecting androgyny and appropriation of clothing, like pants or suits, from the opposite gender. Full stop.

I realize you want to talk about your 'experiences' in Japan, but you are missing the point, as usual.
 
alasdairm said:
it's not intended to be a way out - just an invitation to consider the issue from another perspective.

i am learning that there is a correlation between political leaning and empathy and compassion.

alasdair
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Man, I dont know if you are srs or sarcastic, assume srs, if so then plz start a thread for this specifically as that would be a good one and too ot for here.

I dont know if there is any merit at all and would think this is wrong.
 
you are missing the point
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You brought up a fashion trend that stems from "thousand of years" (your words) of child abuse and you posted a disturbing black and white photo of male child prostitutes dressed up as girls... I still don't know what your point is or why you brought up a fashion trend that stems form Japanese cross-dressing paedophilia. I don't want to talk about my experiences in Japan. I didn't bring up Japan. You did. I'm merely attempting to explain to you that what you're bringing up is essentially child abuse.

If there was a fashion trend that stemmed from Western child abuse, I would object to that also. Like I said, I don't see what grooming children for sexual purposes (and/or dressing little boys up like girls so it's not gay when you sodomise them) has to do with gender fluidity. It's certainly not a positive example... It doesn't matter if it's a fashion trend.

What you said was wrong. You brought up paedophilia as an example of a historic third gender.
 
cduggles said:
my post was about the complex relationship between biological sex and gender and how that is reflected in fashion, including trends reflecting androgyny and appropriation of clothing, like pants or suits, from the opposite gender. Full stop.
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i think i get what your saying. this in the context of how one expresses themselves through fashion. the androgyny of the 80's here wasn't close to that in japan but it was an attempt and i think one influence that led to many here today being more comfortable to express themselves freely through how one dresses. current influences are being bolstered by those from other countries. this make sense?

i don't think ANT will not not associate the point you bring up with pedophiles, it seems to be lodged in there quiet well.
 
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ANT,

From the article I posted:

Feminine males and masculine females are common tropes in Japanese culture, usually in ritual or theatrical contexts involving cross-dressing. The onnagata (male players of women's roles in classical Kabuki theater) and otokoyaku (female players of men's roles in the Takarazuka Revue theater troupe) are famous outside the country for their gendered performances.
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Is three thousand years long enough for you? Is Kabuki symbolic of some kind of scat play that you accidentally stumbled across whilst unintentionally watching Japanese child porn on a train? Ffs.

The article, the bishonen as current fashion statement (and as my definition and quote specifically stated, it doesn't reference historical bishonen), and the quote above, are all about bending gender through fashion.

You brought up pedophilia and you brought up all the child stuff you sought out in Japan.

But if I'd only ever visited and not just Japan seen on the internet, like maybe a dozen times before, I'd have a clue. 8) :D

Everyone's right about that Wall and you. And the other stuff. :|
 
invegauser said:
i think i get what your saying. this in the context of how one expresses themselves through fashion. the androgyny of the 80's here wasn't close to that in japan but it was an attempt and i think one influence that led to many here today being more comfortable to express themselves freely through how one dresses. current influences are being bolstered by those from other countries. this make sense?
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Exactly. The women who adopted Western dress in Japan last century, kabuki theater, and other fashion trends have both mirrored and bent gender norms.

My point is that biological sex and gender are two different things. Androgyny illustrates the difference.

The hijra constitute a real third gender category.

I don't think androgynous dress is a third gender; ANT missed also my point entirely there. But it is a rejection or playfulness with gender norms and therefore of interest.

i don't think ANT will not not associate the point you bring up with pedophiles, it seems to be lodged in there quiet well.
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Ewwww. Neither do I. I'm hiding on the other side of the wall.
 
you brought up all the child stuff you sought out in Japan
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Didn't seek anything out.

Feminine males and masculine females are common tropes in Japanese culture, usually in ritual or theatrical contexts involving cross-dressing. The onnagata (male players of women's roles in classical Kabuki theater) and otokoyaku (female players of men's roles in the Takarazuka Revue theater troupe) are famous outside the country for their gendered performances.
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That's all good and fine. I didn't make any comments about onnagata or otokoyaku. All I'm saying is: bishonen is not a good example of gender fluidity. I assume that when you mentioned it you didn't know what it was. And, that's fine. I'm just letting you know that the reality of bishonen is actually quite disturbing. There's nothing I'm failing to understand here. You inadvertently brought up paedophilia, you just used a Japanese term rather than an English term. There's lots of paedophilia stuff in Japanese culture. Like I said, look at shotacon. Japan is a very disturbing place. Foreign paedophilia is still paedophilia. If I were you (which obviously I'm not) I wouldn't use bishonen as an example of anything other than child abuse... But, you can do whatever you like. :\

i don't think ANT will not not associate the point you bring up with pedophiles, it seems to be lodged in there quiet well.
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I'm not making the association. Bishonen revolves around the sexualization of children. Look it up.
 
again you take too many liberties.

again you think i don't already know what it is. this is the third time you have assumed this and hung the conversation up for the benefit of safety from behind your wall.

no, it doesn't mean sexing with the lil boys. it means as a diversion sexually among a few other things more related to the stage show aspect as opposed to the after party. as in the USO shows we have for our troops. the boys were allowed to play on the gender bending roles to express more during the period shortly after when a lot of females were kicked out of the entertainment business due to how women (especially their genitalia) were perceived as lesser unwanted qualities. "Some have theorized that bishōnen provide a non-traditional outlet for gender relations". it also led to trends in fashion and opened up people to ideas where gender roles had kept doors shut.

the topic is more complicated than you want to realize ANT while miss duggles is focusing on one aspect in the heritage that is shared between a few older countries and is good evidence of not only influence but how the norms of gender and sex have been utilized through out history to express deviations of those definitions and ones identity. much like is part of what is going on today. the amalgamation, catalyst and crystallization of it for another big step in the context of gender and sex in this current step of evolution we find ourselves in.

bishonen and wakashu have different definitions, one is not the same as the other yet one can be the other. both don't necessarily have to do anything with pedophiles.

in short: just because i go to a strip club doesn't mean i'm getting laid by a stripper.

cherry picking isn't nice ANT, nor is it effective in conversation where something is fluid, organic and with a focus on an outcome that is agreement wrought by creation and understanding.

get lil kids out of your head before it becomes a problem.
 
With all due respect, I don't think you know what you're talking about. You refuse to look into the history of bishonen, and - like I said - there's nothing much I can do about that... Bishonen revolves around the sexualization of pubescent boys. Shotacon revolves around the sexualization of prepubescent boys. I don't know why you would defend either of them, as rigorously as you are.

I guess next time somebody brings up something to do with paedophilia, I'll just keep my mouth shut?

This is a bit crazy, even by Bluelight standards.
 
ANT said:
I don't know why you would defend either of them, as rigorously as you are.
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you are not allowed to accuse me of doing anything that i haven't done.

you are not aware of the situation and context of the conversation.

you need serious help ant, i suggest you seek it before you act on such impulses and find yourself in the middle of a prison where they really do not take kindly to pedophiles. you will be lucky if you can walk let a lone breathe.
 
by your line of thinking if one finds the mona lisa to be attractive they will want to have sex with a 500 year old painting.

grow up ant.

you and i are done here. you obviously have no intention of debating, talking, conversing or engaging on anything in any shape or form for the benefit of anyone other than yourself.
 
ANT, you've misquoted me and misrepresented what I've posted multiple times. This behavior is why you're viewed as not posting in good faith.

I not trying to arouse your clearly focused experiences of a country that differ a great deal from my own.

I was used the term "bishonen" in a specific and modern context that has nothing to with boys or pedophilia. That's your hang up and reflects your inability to separate the history from the modern.

Let's move along...
 
I don't think that's fair. I'm not posting in bad faith. This is the last thing I'm going to say: if there was a fashion trend in the Western world called Paedo (think Zoolander / Derilecte) that revolved around beautiful feminine looking boys, wouldn't that raise a red flag or two in your head?
 
it was only 100 years ago women were fighting to wear pants. something like 80 years ago they were getting their ankle on with the new bathing suits.

a professional attire is good regardless of gender imo. depends on the job whether you need a suit and tie or a paper hat. a certain level of professionalism.

how we define gender today is mind boggling but it is a work in progress so it's to be expected. human rights are worth it.
 
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