Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

[Xorkoth]

Well, if other countries don't include gun suicides in their gun death figures, then including them in the US leads to inflated statistics. However if other countries do include gun suicides, then it's valid to also include them in the US. However, I don't consider gun suicides in the same realm as gun violence against others. If you want to kill yourself, you might want to do it the quickest and most surefire way possible, which would be a gun to the head. Given the availability of guns, it makes sense a lot of suicides would be via guns. It's tragic, but suicide isn't uncommon, and never has been to my knowledge. And ultimately people have that right over their own life. On the other hand, gun violence against others (any violence against others) is reprehensible and problematic. Which is why mass shootings are so disturbing. The idea that someone can easily acquire a tool that lets them spray a crowd of people with dozens of deadly bullets in the amount of time it takes people to become aware it's even happening is frightening, and then the fact that people ARE doing this, on a regular basis, is why people are so intent on gun control, at least for the more massively lethal weapons. You can't blame people for being scared and wanting something done about it, especially survivors of attacks and the loved ones of victims of attacks.

 

[spacejunk]

And ultimately people have that right over their own life. On the other hand, gun violence against others (any violence against others) is reprehensible and problematic.

i think everyone has the 'right' to end their life in an abstract/philosophical sense, but guns are a problematic piece of the puzzle because the relative ease and likelihood of successful attempts (according to the info i quoted).
compared to other methods means that people are probably more inclined to compulsively take their lives with guns.

i think it is also worth acknowledging the effect the violence of gun suicide can have on people who witness it, people who find the bodies of loved ones who have shot themselves, and the people who have to then tend to the body and clear up the site.

none of this stuff is pleasant to talk about - and i'm stating the obvious of course - but i think increases in suicide rates because of the availability of guns is deeply problematic. maybe not in relation to homicide, but self-inflicted violence is still violence.

i would argue that simply having a gun around increases the likelihood that someone may use it commit suicide, as opposed to other ways that people do themselves in which may take more planning, more time and more effort/pain/risk of non-lethal serious injury and/or disability.

Firearm ownership closely tied to suicide rates, study finds

Buying a Handgun Significantly Increases Risk of Suicide

from that second article -

The purchase of a handgun is associated with an increased risk for suicide by any method, but when a woman purchases a handgun it is tantamount to stepping before a firing squad, says Garen J. Wintemute, MD, MPH. Wintemute's study of the impact of firearm purchase on mortality appears in Thursday's issue of TheNew England Journal of Medicine.

"We were astonished to see an almost 40-fold increase in the risk for gun suicide in the first year after [women] buy a gun," Wintemute tells WebMD. "The increase lasted for the 6 years of the study. And a woman's risk of homicide from a gun was doubled, suggesting for me that women who may be under threat or stress from partner abuse are purchasing a gun for self-protection ... but the purchase adds to the threat."

 

[JGrimez]

The idea that someone can easily acquire a tool that lets them spray a crowd of people with dozens of deadly bullets in the amount of time it takes people to become aware it's even happening is frightening

Yeah but you could easily argue that anyone can make a bomb with a bunch of materials that are publicly available, and bombs can kill a large number of people quicker and more anonymously than using a semi-auto.

and then the fact that people ARE doing this, on a regular basis, is why people are so intent on gun control, at least for the more massively lethal weapons.

Spree shootings aren't actually that common. And there are countries with moderate to high levels of gun ownership that don't experience the phenomenon of spree shooters. Also banning rifles and allowing handguns does nothing to fix that problem.

You can't blame people for being scared and wanting something done about it

And that's what the misleading media and deceptive gun control advocates prey on.

 

[alasdairm]

Yeah but you could easily argue that anyone can make a bomb with a bunch of materials that are publicly available, and bombs can kill a large number of people quicker and more anonymously than using a semi-auto.

you could. so why so so many of these people choose a gun?

alasdair

 

[Xorkoth]

Spree shootings aren't actually that common. And there are countries with moderate to high levels of gun ownership that don't experience the phenomenon of spree shooters.

The fact that we hear about them with regularity and are desensitized to it means it happens far too often. But I think we can agree that the root of the problem is something besides the guns.

 

[JGrimez]

you could. so why so so many of these people choose a gun?

alasdair

Because many of these attacks are planned or coerced by authorities to push through an agenda of disarmament.
For eg Parkland had the strongest evidence I've seen so far for a false flag, and if they could have conducted one there they could do it anywhere.

 

[JGrimez]

But I think we can agree that the root of the problem is something besides the guns.

Generally a shooter will fit the profile of:
Lack of father figure
On antidepressant or antipsychotic medication
Known to or affiliated with FBI

 

[alasdairm]

Because many of these attacks are planned or coerced by authorities to push through an agenda of disarmament.
For eg Parkland had the strongest evidence I've seen so far for a false flag, and if they could have conducted one there they could do it anywhere.

many? can you help me understand how you measure that and substantiate it?

do you agree with alex jones that the sandy hook massacre was staged and the parents are actors and liars?

alasdair

 

[Xorkoth]

It sounds like he agrees that that's true for Parkland. Honestly, if the government wanted to subjugate us all... they're doing a good enough job already. And if they wanted to do... whatever it is to us that people who worry that we need guns to protect ourselves from (are they going to try to kill us all? Put us in camps? Or what?)... well, the military could do that whether we have guns or not, you think we could stop them? I think that, rather than look to victim of mass shootings for blame, we should address whatever underlying sickness in our society is causing people to go on shooting rampages. Suggesting that kids who survived their classmates being killed by their classmate are actors pushing an agenda of disarmament is not only disrespectful and crass, it misses the entire problem completely.

 

[swilow]

Generally a shooter will fit the profile of:
Lack of father figure
On antidepressant or antipsychotic medication
Known to or affiliated with FBI

Besides the medication, how do you propose these other factors contribute to someone becoming a shooter?

Fwiw, we've been through this before jgrimez. Conspiracy stuff is often harmless but the false-flag-school-shooter one actually is. Its deeply, offensively PAINFUL to the families of vicitims.

Either way, bluelight isn't the place for it.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

I have one, there is no reason for the Government or anyone else to know what I do and do not own. The waiting periods only work on honest people and hurt them the most. A criminal isn't buying guns and ammo in a store.

The only "waiting period" I've ever had to deal with was for the purchase of the pistol I use in conjunction with my CCL. Now that I have the CCL there is no waiting period at all. I can buy as many pistols as I want in a gun store, at a gun show, or in a private sale on the same day. I avoid buying pistols though because I don't like doing the paperwork and I don't like the Government knowing about every pistol that I own that I didn't get through inheritance. This is one of the reasons why I tend to buy long guns now.

The restrictions are already too strict in my opinion. I can't buy a quality AK now due to the ban on imports of foreign weapons. I can't build a quality FAL without a mountain of paperwork due to the same bans. I was forced to build ARs instead even though there was tons of guns better suited for the purposes I needed them for. It's insane that I have to pay $15,000 - $50,000 for a full auto rifle on top of a year waiting period for the ATF to approve the purchase because there is such a limited pool of "legal/registered" rifles with fully auto trigger groups. If I _really_ wanted one I could manufacture/modify a semi-auto I currently own in half an afternoon. The only reason I don't already have one is the fear of prison. Meanwhile I know several gang bangers that own them and several former cops that own them from taking them in drug busts. I've shot them several times and they aren't anything special and the cost of ownership is high because they go through so much ammo. Regardless, I feel like it's my right to own one if I please and my reason is simple: I'm part of the militia and if I ever need to help defend the country/state from an outside invader or our own Government going insane I don't want to be out gunned.

As it stands if such a situation ever comes up in my lifetime I'll be forced to kill a soldier, take his rifle, and either use it or modify my own by taking a few parts out of his. Making your run of the mill AK or AR fully auto isn't very hard. All you have to do is drop in a non-neutered bolt and a trigger group or drop in a so-called "bottle opener" in a semi with a non-neutered bolt. I can make those from lawn mower blades and/or scrap metal in a few minutes. Process is pretty similar with an AK too. It's all entry level day one stuff. Even a semi-auto rifle is easy to fire full auto through several methods. The most well known being "bump fire" which is easy enough to do with an unmodified rifle.

I will agree that whomever let a kid with no training near an automatic was stupid but the gun being able to go full auto wasn't the problem. It was the lack of training and supervision.

Regardless of a waiting period, if you buy a brand new gun it is registered in your name and the government knows you own it. I really think the waiting period is good for giving people a chance to ?cool off?. Say a husband catches his wife cheating and decides he?s going to kill her and her lover, if he has to wait 10 days he is likely to decide it?s not worth it when he is in a better state of mind.

 

[spacejunk]

^ yep, that's what a "cooling off period" is, right?

i know people that foster out rescue kittens. same rule applies! you can't adopt a cat you met that day because they want you to go home and think about it and not make serious decisions (ie murder, adopting a kitten) without due consideration...

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Because many of these attacks are planned or coerced by authorities to push through an agenda of disarmament.
For eg Parkland had the strongest evidence I've seen so far for a false flag, and if they could have conducted one there they could do it anywhere.

Delusional.

It’s people like you that make people hate the 2nd amendment. You’re probably a deep cover liberal.

 

[JessFR]

Regardless of a waiting period, if you buy a brand new gun it is registered in your name and the government knows you own it. I really think the waiting period is good for giving people a chance to ?cool off?. Say a husband catches his wife cheating and decides he?s going to kill her and her lover, if he has to wait 10 days he is likely to decide it?s not worth it when he is in a better state of mind.

This is actually somewhere I've always sort of wondered about. It's one area of gun control I don't have a strong existing opinion about.

I'm not against waiting periods, and given how mild they are as an obstruction to people's freedoms, I don't feel compelled to see too much evidence to justify them.

But, I have always kinda wondered if they actually do any good. I could be wrong, but I find it somewhat unlikely they save many people. I just don't believe this idea of "I just caught my wife cheating or something, I'm gonna leave and go buy a gun and come back and kill her" actually matches up with reality.

If you really might have killed someone in a fit of rage, I think chances are you'd do it, immediately. Not immediately as in after you go to the gun store, immediately as in the moment you find out, with whatever means you have available in your path between you and your victim. I just don't believe the kind of event cool off periods are designed to prevent actually almost ever happens at all.

I suspect people either try and kill someone in a fit of rage immediately, or are premeditated enough that a waiting period won't help. I just don't buy that the kind of person who'd go from murder to not murder over the course of a waiting period is a type of murderer that almost ever exists.

Id love to see any evidence whatsoever that waiting periods have any positive impact, it's one small area of this I've never looked into in depth. Mainly because I think the infringement to people's freedom they create is so absurdly small that this is one where I'd say if it saves almost anyone at all ever, that'd justify it.

I mean come on, you can wait a week or a few days or whatever.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

^Good point. Even though I think they are a good precaution, you almost never hear of people buying a gun and going on a rampage all in the same day (though that may just be because most states do have a waiting period afaik).

 

[JessFR]

One frustrating problem for studying this. Is politicians tend to introduce a bunch of changes all at once, which makes identifying the impact of any specific policy with statistics quite difficult.

If we just properly and scientifically studied the impact of policies, we might get a solid idea of what needs to be done going forward all around the world, but we don't. Politicians make no attempt to evaluate objectively if policies even work

 

[JGrimez]

Let me be very clear - whenever someone claims that everyone involved is an actor or that the event didn't happen -that's disinformation - it's obviously false and hurts the search for the truth.
A false flag simply implies that we disagree about who is responsible for an attack.
The US has committed false flags against its own people before (Gulf of Tonkin, Northwoods) and we've got official government documents of them planning more (they were going to pretend the Cubans attacked Miami in the 60's). A false flag is nothing new and it is a very effective tool of war (blame someone else for attacking you so you have justification to go after them).

do you agree with alex jones that the sandy hook massacre was staged and the parents are actors and liars?

So, no. I hope people understand the difference now.
I absolutely detest Alex Jones. He does more harm than good. His purpose is to turn normal people away from honest, alternative-theory analysis and muddy the waters.
The fact you asked me that question proves how successful his psy-op has been.
I do not wish for Jones to be censored, but I do wish he would STFU.
(I believe that Jones originally began broadcasting with good intentions but was either paid or threatened to do what he's doing these days).

Conspiracy stuff is often harmless but the false-flag-school-shooter one actually is.

The only thing that's harmful is the shooter (and any accomplices). If people refuse to look at evidence of government involvement in an attack (or government documents proving previous false flag attacks) that's their prerogative, but there's no need for hyperbole. Nobody is going to hurt themselves after reading my posts regarding evidence at Parkland for eg.

Lol, this why the rest of the world finds americans so weird. Well, one of the reasons, anyway.

Do you live in Australia?
Think of a worst-case (but actually quite possible) scenario: a massive natural disaster, political chaos, civil unrest, or the most likely - food shortages.
Our civilization seems very stable and smooth but shit could collapse in an instant and then it would be absolute lawlessness, especially in congested cities where nobody knows how to grow food.
I hope there never comes a time when you wish that you were armed but aren't.
In Australia we are sitting ducks and at the mercy of the large number of criminals (who ARE already armed) if things go south. It's not a nice thought but it's a realistic one.
"I'd rather be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war" - Sun Tzu

many? can you help me understand how you measure that and substantiate it?

That's a good question and difficult to explain. You really just have to rigorously investigate each attack with an open mind.
For eg in Sandy Hook they were very quick to bulldoze the building that housed all the evidence.
Often what the authorities don't say is more telling than what they do say.

Parkland has been the most obvious so far: a student witness standing next to the alleged shooter when there were gunshots in a separate building; a teacher who saw the shooter describing what looked like a soldier or someone in riot gear; the shooter not having enough time between arriving in an Uber and suiting up; and most alarmingly, 4 Broward Country deputies WAITING OUTSIDE while someone was inside massacring children. The first armed guard on campus being alone and scared to engage - I can completely understand. But then 3 more cops arrived and they all waited outside? That goes beyond fear or incompetence. Since Columbine (when the SWAT team arrived hours after the suspects died) police procedure has changed and is now: the first officers of the scene engage the shooter.

Or take for example Mandalay Bay. The biggest and most deadly mass shooting in US history and the investigation was a joke. They pretty much shoved that one under the rug as soon as possible, and authorities have not explained why the SWAT team waited for 70mins before breaching the hotel room. What happened in those 70mins? The suspect doesn't fit the profile of a mass shooter but he does fit the profile of a government-connected arms dealer (think Fast & Furious scandal). In fact a document was recently uncovered that his wife filled out in Australia (she's a citizen) which said that she was employed by the FBI...

It sounds like he agrees that that's true for Parkland. Honestly, if the government wanted to subjugate us all... they're doing a good enough job already. And if they wanted to do... whatever it is to us that people who worry that we need guns to protect ourselves from (are they going to try to kill us all? Put us in camps? Or what?)... well, the military could do that whether we have guns or not, you think we could stop them?

Yes actually I do lol. Do you realize how many people live in the US? There are more guns than people. A tyrannical government would not be a match for a well-armed populace (which is one of the reasons for 2A, fancy that). If anything it would be a risk with massive casualties on both sides. Also who's to say that most of the military wouldn't take the side of the people? Put yourself in "their" shoes (I know it's not easy to think like a psychopath), but would you rather get into a total war with the people, or would you rather disarm them first through legislation? If (I know, big if) that is their goal, then organizing a few mercenaries to shoot up some schools, in order to get MASS public support for disarmament, is not a terrible idea.

Besides the medication, how do you propose these other factors contribute to someone becoming a shooter?

I think we understate the importance of a child growing up with a responsible, male father figure. Kids who experience this are more likely to have some direction and less likely to be involved in criminal activity.
The FBI being directly involved in the lives of shooters is getting more conspiratorial. but it is something that we've seen again and again.
Check out Omar Mateen's father's links to the FBI. There's often too many coincidences.
If the shooters are often well-known to the authorities, and they are still able to commit these shootings - then how are we supposed to trust law enforcement's ability to keep us safe?
If they were able to thwart all the attacks - then they'd at least have a logical argument for gun control (we're keeping you safe, no need to worry, hand over your guns).

It?s people like you that make people hate the 2nd amendment. You?re probably a deep cover liberal.

Now you're thinking! There are plenty of disinformation agents/agent provocateurs that infiltrate groups and bring them down from the inside.
I am a classical liberal, I used to be the typical anti-gun zealot, but after looking at facts, evidence and statistics (like homicide rates vs gun laws, historical tyranny, plus living in Australia where any type of self-defense is illegal) I've changed my stance on personal protection.

 

[invegauser]

Mass shooting definition:

A mass shooting is an incident involving multiple victims of firearms-related violence. The United States' Congressional Research Service acknowledges that there is not a broadly accepted definition, and defines a "public mass shooting" as one in which four or more people selected indiscriminately, not including the perpetrator, are killed, echoing the FBI definition of the term "mass murder". However, according to the Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, signed into law in January 2013, a mass killing is defined as a killing with at least three deaths, excluding the perpetrator. Another unofficial definition of a mass shooting is an event involving the shooting (not necessarily resulting in death) of five or more people (sometimes four) with no cooling-off period. Related terms include school shooting and massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting



Fast food kills:

According to the Historical Atlas of the 20th Century, 203 million people died last century from war and oppression; this figure includes everyone who died as both military and collateral civilian casualties from conflicts, genocide, politicide (i.e., the extermination of people who share a political belief), mass murders, and famines. That?s an average of 2 million deaths per annum.

Now consider that the World Health Organization estimates that at least 2.8 million people currently die annually from conditions strongly linked to overweight and obesity, such as coronary heart disease, ischemia (brain stroke), and diabetes.

https://foodrevolution.org/blog/junk-food-kills-wars-famine-genocide/



Top Ten Reasons Peopl Die IN America 2015:

1. Heart disease: 633,842

2. Cancer: 595,930

3. Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 155,041

4. Accidents (unintentional injuries): 146,571

5. Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 140,323

6. Alzheimer?s disease: 110,561

7. Diabetes: 79,535

8. Influenza and pneumonia: 57,062

9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 49,959

10. Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,193

Total: 2,013,017 people

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm



The 10 leading causes of death in 2016 remained the same as in 2015, although unintentional injuries became the third leading cause, while chronic lower respiratory diseases became the fourth.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db293.htm



Causes of societal downfall:

1. Linking social/enviromental dynamics:

Modern social critics commonly interpret things like sedentary social behavior as symptomatic of societal decay, and link what appears to be laziness with the depletion of important non-renewable resources. However, many primitive cultures also have high degrees of leisure, so if that is a cause in one place it may not be in another?leisure or apparent laziness is then not a sufficient cause.

2. Population pressure and mineral resource exhasution:

Earth's capacity to sustain human populations and consumption levels ? is bound to decrease sometime in the future as Earth's finite stock of mineral resources is presently being extracted and put to use; and consequently, that the world economy as a whole is heading towards an inevitable future collapse, leading to the demise of human civilisation itself.

3. Theories of energy return on energy invested:

A related economic model is proposed by Thomas Homer-Dixon and by Charles Hall in relation to our declining productivity of energy extraction, or energy return on energy invested (EROEI). This measures the amount of surplus energy a society gets from using energy to obtain energy.

4. Models of societal collapse:

According to Joseph Tainter, too many scholars offer facile explanations of societal collapse by assuming one or more of the following three models in the face of collapse:

a. the dinosaur

b. runaway train

c. house of cards


5. Tainter's critique

a. human societies are problem-solving organizations;
b. sociopolitical systems require energy for their maintenance;
c. increased complexity carries with it increased costs per capita; and
d. investment in sociopolitical complexity as a problem-solving response reaches a point of declining marginal returns.


6. Toynbee's theory of decay:

First the Dominant Minority attempts to hold by force - against all right and reason - a position of inherited privilege which it has ceased to merit; and then the Proletariat repays injustice with resentment, fear with hate, and violence with violence when it executes its acts of secession. Yet the whole movement ends in positive acts of creation - and this on the part of all the actors in the tragedy of disintegration. The Dominant Minority creates a universal state, the Internal Proletariat a universal church, and the External Proletariat a bevy of barbarian war-bands

7. Systems science:

Researchers, as yet, have very little ability to identify internal structures of large distributed systems like human societies, which is an important scientific problem. Genuine structural collapse seems, in many cases, the only plausible explanation supporting the idea that such structures exist. However, until they can be concretely identified, scientific inquiry appears limited to the construction of scientific narratives, using systems thinking for careful storytelling about systemic organization and change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse



What to do during mass shooting:

1. Be an active participant in your own survival.

2. Take time to prepare an emergency action plan.

3. Practice situational awareness.

4. Get out of the killzone.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...uring-a-mass-shooting/?utm_term=.3b070997f6d4



Mass Shootings Are Pretty Rare but Here's What To Do If Your Ever in One

https://www.self.com/story/what-to-do-mass-shooting



How to prevent mass shootings: n/a. nothing has been conclusively written on the subject.



How many gun protests 2015: no specific source can be found.



How many times congress met on mass shootings and gun laws 2015: again no specific source. (obama spoke on it 14 times in 2015.)



How many web related articles to mass shootings 2015: i could count that high and do the research but i'm not going to, let's just say a lot.



How many mass shootings happened in 2015: 372

https://www.vox.com/a/mass-shootings-calendar-2015



How many mass shooters commuted suicide 2015: no accurate number as stats are not specific but on average half to 3/4's of people who perpetrate mass shootings die by suicide or intervention of law enforcement whether provoked or not. (186 - 279)



How many people died from mass shootings in 2015: 468

https://www.vox.com/a/mass-shootings-calendar-2015



How many posts on blue light: 1,299 (this thread) and 354 (vegas mandalay bay thread) = (2017 - present) 1,653



How many mass shootings have been stopped or prevented: no specific definitive number but several have been.



How many mass shootings since 2015: 307 (2016) + 345 (2017) + 154 ( 2018 ) = 806

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/health/mass-shootings-in-america-in-charts-and-graphs-trnd/index.html

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...r-mass-shootings-in-modern-us-histo/23298797/

https://www.abc15.com/news/data/mass-shootings-in-the-us-when-where-they-have-occurred-in-2018



Total number of lives lost since 2015 to mass shootings: 284 (2016) + more than 14,000 (2017) + more than 7,000 ( 2018 ) = more than 21,284 people



Total number of people killed by guns in all of human history: 0

 

[alasdairm]

The fact you asked me that question proves how successful his psy-op has been.

come on man. are you just incapable or unwilling to respect how others formed their opinion?

i wanted to get an understanding of the scope of your position and he's a useful yardstick.



alasdair

 

[JGrimez]

come on man. are you just incapable or unwilling to respect how others formed their opinion?

i wanted to get an understanding of the scope of your position and he's a useful yardstick.

I didn't mean that to be a personal attack. I just really dislike that guy and the damage he has caused to people who ask questions and investigate unofficial leads.
It's important that people understand his role - to make people like myself look like retards.