US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

[Xorkoth]

Improving relations with Russia is good... however, Russia interfered with our election process and has been running a campaign to sow discord within our nation... so we should address that, not make nice. It's broadly accepted among both political parties that it has happened. Trump is trying to say it hasn't, last I heard, but I suspect it's because he's a puppet.

 

[spacejunk]

Also I've yet to hear a good argument against improving relations with the Russian state.

Maybe it's because you only seek out right wing trash that tells you what you want to hear?
That's called confirmation bias.
Trump is an out-and-out crook, and your reaponse is typical of trump apologists; you refuse to acknowledge evidence which contradicts your worldview, then act as though there is no proof that you are wrong. Even when it laid out in front of you.


Pro tip - if you don't want to look like a troll, it might be an idea to watch and critically assess information posted before you rant about it being "hilarious propaganda".

Given the alt-right conspiracy material you post, i guess the irony of that is lost on you?

I hope some open-minded people watch those clips though - not just because it's a brilliant exploration of trump's links to russian oligarchs and mafia - but because it is a good bit of investigative journalism.

My intention in posting it is not to change anyone's mind, necessarily, but to share something interesting and entertaining with people who might enjoy watching it.

It is quite interesting to see how defensive trump people are about "the truth".
I think most trump people probably realise that trump's a criminal and an idiot, but they've spent so long arguing how great he is, that they're trying to save face.

I reckon you should beat the rush and denounce him now - before his messy downfall - than later. I mean, there is still a touch of plausible deniability the moment, but the more time goes on, the more you seem to be knowingly supporting a treasonous election thief.

Russia is led by a man so contemptuous of journalists that he regularly has them killed.
If you compare that to trump's response to the annapolis shooting, and constant bitching about the media and his contempt for the public generally, it's not difficult to see why trump is such a putin fanboy.
Trump is an enemy of democracy, and he makes no secret of it - especially when it comes to election fraud.

 

[quiet roar]

WHAT IF Trump sent Melania to meet with Vladimir Putin at his home, Melania then gave a speech (lifted from Michelle O) and she received $500,000 from a Kremlin bank..
Then later on the Trump Foundation received $150 million from some Russians connected to a government deal which then allowed Putin to obtain a massive chunk of US uranium.
Then the uranium is illegally removed from the US to Canada and then onto Europe, because FBI Director Wray finds Russian foul play but Trump ignores it and Pompeo signs off on the deal.

Would that shit fly? Hell no, and that's exactly what happened, except it was Robert Mueller who was in charge of the FBI at the time! The guy investigating Trump was directly involved in Russian collusion!

That's pretty much spot on. As much as I think Trump is a buffoon and possibly a dangerous one, the way his detractors ignore anything the Dems have done is ridiculous.

 

[spacejunk]

Do trump critics really ignore everything the dems have done?

I certainly don't - and i think that argument is a total cop-out.
Trump stole an election and accepted intelligence that was stolen by russian hackers.

Why do trump supporters constantly change the subject? Have you watched the Four Corners episodes i posted above, quiet roar?
I'm a massive critic of clinton, but it doesn't mean i think trump is anything but a fascist mafia goon.

 

[quiet roar]

I reckon you, and most others, do tend to ignore JGrimez's posts that point out the foibles of the Democrats. Or if not ignore, simply pass it off as propaganda. It's the same from the other side.

I have watched the episodes and many others, and I also think Trump a fascist mafia goon, but I also believe the other side is just as awful, just in an underhanded way. I also believe that Trump's popularity is being fuelled by the oppositions inability to argue without prejudice and without hysteria.

In watching the to-and-fro here and other forums, I honestly do not see that much difference between to two sides' methodology.

 

[spacejunk]

I dismiss trump "whataboutism" because it's so fanatical. if grimez method showed some willingness to discuss things sincerely, he might get a better response from people - but there's not much to discuss when someone is merely slinging the talking points of a contemptible liar like trump.
Both parties are absolutely fucked, but what trump is doing is absolutely unprecedented.

Putting aside tribalism and culture wars, trump is really doing a lot of damage to the USA, and world politics.

 

[JGrimez]

Russia interfered with our election process and has been running a campaign to sow discord within our nation... so we should address that, not make nice.

Cry me a river!
Did the Russian interference alter the outcome of the election?
If not, then mentioning it is a waste of time talking nonsense and covering up why Hillary actually lost.

What does "address that" mean? Because we've addressed it ad nauseum, are you calling for more violent action? What exactly do you want?

Important: The USA has exhibited a pattern of actually removing democratically-elected governments, and replacing them with often authoritarian regimes.
How can anyone in their right mind complain about Russians buying some Facebook ads, which did not alter the results of the election, when realistically taking into account US foreign policy?
It is disgusting to even equate the two, to be honest.
Did US hackers attempt to influence Russia's elections? OF COURSE THEY DID.

Maybe it's because you only seek out right wing trash that tells you what you want to hear?
That's called confirmation bias.

Pro tip - if you don't want to look like a troll, it might be an idea to watch and critically assess information posted before you rant about it being "hilarious propaganda".

Pro tip - don't engage in insults and ad homs. If I said similar things to you my posts would be UA'd and I'd probably receive an infraction for abuse.

I've been on top of this whole saga since the beginning, I know the information.
I did give those videos a chance and watched them for longer than I thought I would
It's not illegal for a global businessman to have ties to Russia and that is no proof of blackmail or extortion.
There is as of yet zero evidence that Trump colluded with any Russians to influence the US election - he didn't need to, he won fairly which is what many refuse to accept.
The Russians did not alter the outcome, if you think they did I don't know what to say to you. That means the US is incredibly weak. It is an embarrassing thing to suggest.

It is quite interesting to see how defensive trump people are about "the truth".

..the more you seem to be knowingly supporting a treasonous election thief.

That's amusing, why didn't you address my post reporting the truth about the Uranium One scandal?
The proven evidence destroys your entire point of view.
What constitutes treason for you? Unverifiable conspiracy theories about hackers and Facebook, or proven collusion with the Russian government?
So it's OK to sell Putin uranium, but it's not OK to talk to Russians about getting opposition research on Clinton?

Trump stole an election and accepted intelligence that was stolen by russian hackers.

???? Demonstrably false. And some people wonder why they are called "fake news".
How did he steal an election?
What intelligence was stolen by Russian hackers, and what did Trump accept?

if grimez method showed some willingness to discuss things sincerely

...... who is ignoring whose questions?

 

[spacejunk]

there is heaps of evidence in the videos i posted above

i'm not "refusing to answer questions", but i admit i don't know much about the clinton thing, because to me it seemed like a beat-up for the sake of continuing to keep the negative focus on clinton, as if her corruption somehow justifies or excuses trumo's corruption and cruelty.
that's why i don't have much toi say in the clinton thread.
it's hard to take anything the trumo camp (ie him, his cronies or his supporters) seriously, because of the shameless lies that trump tells every time he speaks publicly. and to be really frank, i'm tired of the repetitive and disingenuous tactics of many trump supporters (the ones online) - so when there is a story being peddled by trump supporters about the woman he defeated, who trump seems unhealthy fixated upon, it's impossible not to be sceptical. when people mock the idea of truth, and worship a compulsive liar, it's hard to take a word they say seriously.
especially when they brush off the seriousness of trump's activities in working with russian spies during his presidential run;

What constitutes treason for you? Unverifiable conspiracy theories about hackers and Facebook, or proven collusion with the Russian government?
So it's OK to sell Putin uranium, but it's not OK to talk to Russians about getting opposition research on Clinton?

(my emphasis)
there is heaps of evidence of collusion. that's the only topic of those 3 forty minute ABC documentaries deal with. it's extensive.
the sense i get from comments like yours above is that even if there is evidence, you'll simply refuse to believe it, or refuse to acknowledge it - because that's the tone trump has set; everything he disagrees with is "fake news" or "alternative facts"

it sounds unfair of me to say that, but with trump's pathological lies, it would be silly to not be sceptical of those that praise him.

none of this is to say i support clinton or think she shouldn't be investigated. but if investigations aren't forthcoming by now, it's time to let go.

trump's been president for 18 months or so. if he's not locked up "crooked hilary" yet, i wouldn't be too optimistic. so yeah, probably a beat-up

it's not like trump, who has been working on ways to pardon himself or otherwise get himself off the hook (see his supreme court pick), isn't being pursued by the FBI. i mean, if nobody is questioning clinton, it makes me think they don't see any reason to do so.
trump, on the other hand, has only avoided being in deeper shit because he's the president.

and he sure is acting guilty...!

the thing about shady deals with hostile and unstable foreign powers, and trading in dicey things like weapons and nuclear materials - is that they're not terribly uncommon for american governments. and yes, i've been criticising the US governments wars for over 20 years, so i'm no fucking democrats supporter.
i mean, there are probably comparable things that people like clinton and other american politicians with a big global reach, is that they inevitably get caught up in some pretty shameful shit. y'know - arms trading, deforestation, fluoridation of tap water (lol, sorry) - and making deals that end up killing people for whatever reason.

there are lots of shitty deals, and lots of people who should have their dodgy decisions exposed - but i'm really quite fascinated in watching the russia investigation pan out, because we're watchiing history happen here - this is some insane shit - but i do wonder how people can be so engrossed in gaslighting for trump when he has led the most embarrassingly shambolic administration.
i like the frankie boyle joke about how trump looks like a guy that would play the president in a porno. it seems kind of apt - but i don't find anything funny about the trade war he's started, or his anti-environment policies - or the other countless fucked up things trump has done as president.

i think the whole trump thing is incredibly fucked up, and one of the things i find the creepiest is the emboldened expression of outright hatred that coincided with trump's rise - the ugly culture war that has been raging in the last couple of years.
it can be enjoyable to debate people that you disagree with, but not if they constantly try to gaslight you with a spin on reality that is demonstrably false (ie all the scenarios where trump is a hero, president etc).

it's especially tedious when people do everything they can to push against our rules as they relate to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and any other bigotry - as if it is some right that has been asserted recently - the right to be a bigot.
fortunately, to the vast majority of us, prejudiced jerks are still prejudiced jerks - same as they ever were.
no amount of gaslighting will ever make trump a good president.
this "emperor" has no clothes, but we might see him in stripey pyjamas soon. i'm increasingly confident that trump is fucked, but we'll wait and see what happens, ok?

that four corners series is a damn good watch, anyway. highly recommended! like a really low-rent version of a mafia film, with a distinctly russian theme.

 

[Xorkoth]

Cry me a river!
Did the Russian interference alter the outcome of the election?
If not, then mentioning it is a waste of time talking nonsense and covering up why Hillary actually lost.

I don't know if it did, but it might have. Do you know if it did or not? If so, how do you know? Why do you want to sweep it under the rug? If Hilary had won, and there was talk of Russian interference, would you be treating it the same way? I think not.

What does "address that" mean? Because we've addressed it ad nauseum, are you calling for more violent action? What exactly do you want?

Now this is a good question. I don't know. I don't want to go to war with Russia or anything. Maybe sanctions would be appropriate. Certainly buddying up with them as Trump is doing isn't what we should do to reward hostile behavior. We're basically saying "alright Russia, it's cool, keep meddling in our democracy, we don't mind".

Important: The USA has exhibited a pattern of actually removing democratically-elected governments, and replacing them with often authoritarian regimes.
How can anyone in their right mind complain about Russians buying some Facebook ads, which did not alter the results of the election, when realistically taking into account US foreign policy?
It is disgusting to even equate the two, to be honest.
Did US hackers attempt to influence Russia's elections? OF COURSE THEY DID.

Did they? I have no idea. But don't act like Russia is so innocent. You don't think Russia's foreign policy is sinister? They have, in recent years, invaded their neighbors. They're also supporting the Syrian regime. I agree that the US meddles in the world, you don't have to convince me. Does that mean we have to roll over and let someone else attempt to undermine our democracy? From where I'm standing, it appears that Russia is carrying out a campaign to divide us and weaken our position in the global economy and pecking order of world powers, it goes beyond election meddling. And it's not far-fetched, it wasn't too many years ago that we were active, open rivals, with the threat of nuclear war as the weapon.

 

[JGrimez]

there is heaps of evidence in the videos i posted above

Then you should be able to summarize the one or two strongest connections, and link with some print articles. If not then you've got nothing, just a bunch of verbiage and circumstantial/business links, basically zero that proves collusion between Trump or Trump's family and Russians with the stated goal of influencing the election. It's important to remember that acquiring oppo research is not illegal or even uncommon during elections.

but if investigations aren't forthcoming by now, it's time to let go.

We're uncovering corruption and the reasons why the investigations were a sham, and you suggest to just let it go.'

You also shouldn't be going after Trump so hard when you haven't taken the time to look into what Clinton was getting up to. Because like I've asked a million times to everyone, what if Trump gets caught doing the exact same thing Clinton did? She walked, so why shouldn't he? Investigating him is a waste of time until we address the corruption and the major problems within the FBI and DOJ. Don't you understand the nobody is going to trust an FBI that finds anything against Trump when everyone knows that they're dirty? According to the evidence, such as FBI statements and subpoena'd communications: the FBI covered for Clinton's crimes and then fabricated whatever they could in order to remove Trump. However even though I do have evidence for this, I dare say you're not interested or you consider all my info fake alt-right pro-Trump Russian propaganda. Way to stay fair and balanced. And you can just stick to the questions no need for a massive Trump rant every time you say his name.

 

[JGrimez]

I don't know if it did, but it might have. Do you know if it did or not? If so, how do you know? Why do you want to sweep it under the rug? If Hilary had won, and there was talk of Russian interference, would you be treating it the same way? I think not.

No, it didn't, "Russian interference", which cannot even be properly defined, did not convince 65 million people to vote for Trump.
Even if Russians did have a social media presence, studies show that voters already had their minds made up.
Clinton was the most scandal-ridden presidential candidate of all time, and some people consider Russians as a reason for why she didn't win?
Remember that Clinton was under FBI investigation before the voting, which the FBI massively mishandled and basically covered up her crimes.
The cover-up would have gone smoothly if she had won, however unexpectedly Trump won so in order for the FBI to not be exposed as a corrupt institution that covers for criminals like Clinton, they had to weaponize against Trump and make sure that he was removed at all costs. This included the "insurance policy" and the illegal wiretapping.
And still, they have not been able to find any solid evidence against him (that they've released publicly).

Maybe sanctions would be appropriate. Certainly buddying up with them as Trump is doing isn't what we should do to reward hostile behavior. We're basically saying "alright Russia, it's cool, keep meddling in our democracy, we don't mind".

WE DO THE SAME THING. So that means you're OK with sanctions, which means you're OK with Russia (and every other country the US has messed with) slapping sanctions down on the US.
I'm sorry there's too much hypocrisy here.

Did they? I have no idea.

Then please learn history before commenting on US foreign policy:

"The USA has in the past been an active opponent of democracy, directly aiding the overthrow of elected leaders in: Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Dominican Republic 1965, Chile 1973, and Nicaragua in the 1980s. The US also covertly backed the overthrow of legitimate or democratically-elected leaders in: Congo 1961, Brazil 1964 and Cyprus 1974. In the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua, the US reinstalled electoral democracy on its own terms, while in the cases of Iran, Guatemala and Chile, the regime changes led to extended periods of oppressive US-backed dictatorships. The US has supported multiple authoritarian regimes, often when said regimes were being opposed by democratically-promising elements. These include: Stroessner?s Paraguay, Argentina?s military dictatorship 1976-83, Nicaragua under the Somozas, Haiti under the Duvaliers, Salazar?s Portugal, Franco?s Spain, Greece?s 1967-74 dictatorship, brief dictatorships in Turkey, South Korea and Taiwan from the 1940s-1980s, Marco?s Philippines and Mobutu?s Congo/Zaire.

The US has also opposed undemocratic governments on behalf of other undemocratic governments, backing authoritarian anti-communist regimes against communist opponents (Korean and Indo-China wars), anti-Moscow communists (China, Ceau?escu?s Romania, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia) against pro-Moscow opponents, authoritarian nationalists against Islamists (Iran versus Iraq), and a semi-absolute monarchy against authoritarian nationalists (Kuwait against Iraq). The US currently supports the repressive monarchy of Saudi Arabia which is being threatened by domestic anti-Western Islamists. The US has also supported undemocratic governments against similarly undemocratic opposition, such as the financing of the Mujahedeen during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and UNITA?s protracted insurgency in Angola (although UNITA?s undemocratic identity was unknown until after the US withdrew its support). The US has ruled Philippines and Nicaragua as a colonial power, and exercised hegemony over Latin American since the declaration of the 1823 Monroe Doctrine. The US exerts disproportionate influence within international institutions like the UN Security Council and the IMF, who significantly influence international relations."

But don't act like Russia is so innocent. You don't think Russia's foreign policy is sinister?

No.
The US meddled with the Ukrainian government (as they always do - see above) and then when Crimeans voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to re-join Russia, the Western media paints it as Putin invading Ukraine.
In Syria, the Russian government was operating there legally as they were asked by a sovereign government to help protect them from terrorists, who were admittedly funded by the US and others. This type of activity is illegal.

 

[Xorkoth]

I meant I have no idea whether US hackers tampered with Russian elections. I am fully aware that the US has a long and shady history with tampering with other countries in general. I wasn't making any statements about the US, I was making a statement about Russia. Russia, who until recently was our biggest foe that people lived in fear of. Remember the Cold War? Russian elections are a joke, Putin silenced any opposition, there was only one outcome that anyone ever expected. If we meddled in their election, what were we hoping to achieve?

 

[JGrimez]

Remember Obama laughing in Romney's face when Romney said Russia was a threat. Barack laughed and said "the Cold War was over".

Or how about when Obama was caught on a mic whispering to a Russian delegate to tell Vlad that he would be in a better position after the election?

Not to mention Obama/Hillary overseeing a deal that allowed Putin to control (and then illegally export) US yellowcake uranium.

Sorry but your "Russia is the big bad enemy" narrative crumbles under any examination.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Russia invaded Crimea. The Ukrainians don’t want to be Russian citizens.

 

[quiet roar]

That's not really a black and white situation, Captain.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

That's not really a black and white situation, Captain.

The "agree to disagree" position the Trump administration came up with pretty much indicates just that, does it not? We're just letting Russia have it, for now, because Trump doesn't want the pee pee tape to get released. Or, I don't know, he wants a Trump tower in Moscow to get built a few years down the road.

Or maybe that $10 million dollar payment Manafort received was really for Trump, and the money will change hands any day now.

 

[Sturnam]

Justice Department Charges Russian Cyberspies With Attack On 2016 Election

The Justice Department charged 12 Russian intelligence officers on Friday with a litany of alleged offenses related to Russia's hacking of the Democratic National Committee's emails, state election systems and other targets in 2016.

Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who announced the indictments, said the Russians involved belonged to the military intelligence service GRU. They are accused of a sustained cyberattack against Democratic Party targets, including its campaign committee and Hillary Clinton's campaign.

The GRU attackers also allegedly targeted state election systems, including government agencies and their vendors, and stole information about 500,000 American voters........

A copy of the actual indictment is at the bottom of the linked article.

And a related article: The Russia Investigations: 6 Key Insights From The Cyberspy Indictment

As the noted counterintelligence analyst Kenny Loggins once said: "This is it." ....

The men are identified by name, rank and job description, and Mueller's indictment describes in granular detail when and how they carried out the hack-and-dump scheme....

How did these cyberspies get into the email accounts of Hillary Clinton's campaign, the Democratic National Committee and their other targets? They created, among other things, an email account that appeared to be the name of a "known member" of the target's team with one letter changed. They masked their Russian email addresses to appear to be from other Internet domains.

So targets who received these emails ? thinking the messages were from colleagues ? opened them and trusted the link they contained. In the case of the Clinton campaign, the emails apparently directed recipients to a document called "hillary-clinton-favorable-rating.xlsx."

That actually was part of a GRU-created website that pushed custom software onto the targets' computers, enabling the Russians to begin their spying.

This is important because of how common this type of attack remains today ? and probably down the line. U.S. intelligence officials say Russia's active measures targeting the West did not stop after 2016. The ubiquity of email means these techniques and the risk of Russians hacking and dumping will remain highly pernicious.......

The special counsel's office has again given the public a glimpse of the godlike vision the U.S. intelligence community can exercise over the world's Internet traffic.....

The indictment describes how, in August 2016, one of the Russian cyberspies saw an FBI alert about the hacking of the state elections database and "deleted his search history." Not only do the Americans know who was involved, by name, but they also know about browser files he deleted from his own workstation in Moscow.

The demonstration of this kind of eye-watering granularity makes it fascinating to imagine the kind of information the U.S. intelligence community asked Mueller to conceal from this indictment to protect its capabilities.

And to imagine what else Mueller might have up his sleeve.

Didn't include the full articles since they're relatively long. Just included the highlights I thought were important.

And hot damn. Especially all the details about the GRU agents' activities. Talk about fine detail.

Also, I always thought those internet security trainings I had to take were stupid and obvious. I guess not, since it seems the GRU agents obtained most of their information and access by spear-fishing. Always double-check those email addresses before opening links.

EDIT:

Don't know how I missed this gem from the second article.

And the indictment suggests that on July 27, 2016, when Trump said, "Russia, if you're listening," it should find Clinton's deleted emails, the Russians were listening.

On that day, according to the court papers, the GRU officers "attempted after hours to spear-phish for the first time email accounts at a domain hosted by a third-party provider and used by Clinton's personal office." They also pinged 76 emails associated with the Clinton campaign.

 

[swilow]

Trump adviser Roger Stone 'probably' American cited in Russia indictments

 

[JGrimez]

Russia invaded Crimea. The Ukrainians don?t want to be Russian citizens.

It's just a tiny bit more complicated than that.
Crimea was originally Russia, the land was given to Ukraine. Most of the population are ethnically Russian.
They voted to return to Russia as the Ukrainian government was going through some serious upheaval and infiltration from literal Neo-Nazis (arguably thanks to western interests).

http://theduran.com/crimea-siege-revisiting-crimean-referendum/
Crimea under siege: Revisiting the Crimean referendum

The "agree to disagree" position the Trump administration came up with pretty much indicates just that, does it not? We're just letting Russia have it, for now, because Trump doesn't want the pee pee tape to get released. Or, I don't know, he wants a Trump tower in Moscow to get built a few years down the road.

Or maybe that $10 million dollar payment Manafort received was really for Trump, and the money will change hands any day now.

The dossier was comprised of uncorroborated rumors. Buzzfeed were the only news outlet dumb enough to publish it and now they're being sued by some Russians.
And why are crimes Manafort committed a decade ago with Democrats relevant to Trump today?

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...indictment-of-russians-wheres-the-dnc-server/

On Friday, dirty cop Robert Mueller rolled out another junk indictment of Russians who will never show up to court as a PR stunt to justify his witch hunt and salary.
This comes a day before President Trump is to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...ey-are-real-people-will-never-face-us-courts/
Updated List of Mueller Indictments: More Than 80% Are Russians Who (If They Are Real People) Will Never Face US Courts

The Mueller witch hunt is reaching new heights. With the 12 Russians indicted today, the corrupt Mueller team has now indicted 31 individuals and 3 companies, with more than 80% of the indictments related to Russians who we really don?t even know if they are real or whether they did anything to interfere in our 2016 election. These indictments today only diminish the validity of the ?witch hunt? by adding more ?fake indictments? to the already pitiful list.

Dirty and Corrupt Cop Robert Mueller and his team of conflicted liberal attorneys and investigators are seeing their unconstitutional witch hunt fall apart. It seems like on a daily basis more and more information becomes available of the entire gang?s unlawful acts. In spite of this, they charge forward hiring more troops while working with their mainstream media (MSM) to report their unlawful and phony leaks planned to keep their criminal conspiracy alive. Today?s actions were no different.
Corrupt and dirty cop Mueller started the ?witch hunt? more than one year ago, on May 17, 2017, and began looking into individuals with any relationship with President Trump. Mueller?s team were not interested in crimes that President Trump committed. There are none. Instead, Mueller went after anyone with any relationship to the President and any other ?fake indictments? with Russians they can create. Mueller?s entire team has serious conflicts of interest and his investigation is unconstitutional, but this has not deterred Mueller.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Crimea was originally Russia

Can't build a time machine. We're moving forward in time.