Denmark's burka ban will send Muslim women further underground

[zephyr]

Well unfortunately that is the sad reality of the world. Countries have their sovereignty, and we can't just go in to all of them with tanks and force equality and secularism down their throats. If we've learned anything over the past 20 years, it's that.

Having these conversations won't change anything, other than maybe opening peoples mind. Changing someone's perspective. Then those people go out in the real world and have a conversation with someone else, and that person does the same thing. And so on.

on the converts thing, my point is, women from western families who face no actual pressure to cover themselves...may do so willingly and excessively in order to show off their religiosity. They may see it as an expression of their faith, whereas women who were born into it, and pressured from the outside, see it as persecution.

Its hard to see the world from the perspective of a woman who is persecuted by their own religion, no doubt they are in any religion, always have been and probably always will be.

I wouldn't think any religion thats soley based on persecution would survive. I dont think the majority of the sects of Islam are as bad on women as we might think.


It doesnt make sense, how other societies are run and my friends who are all first generation refugees are not persecuted.

They ran from death by other muslim groups who just wanted to kill everyone that didnt follow them or Sadam Hussein.

Its kinda bullshit banning stupid shit like choice of clothing in todays times, after the 60s and 70s with the growing freedom of choices but Denmark is stodgy, traditional and maybe not the country that should take in any more migrants who wear hijab.

 

[mal3volent]

Its hard to see the world from the perspective of a woman who is persecuted by their own religion, no doubt they are in any religion, always have been and probably always will be.

I wouldn't think any religion thats soley based on persecution would survive. I dont think the majority of the sects of Islam are as bad on women as we might think.


It doesnt make sense, how other societies are run and my friends who are all first generation refugees are not persecuted.

They ran from death by other muslim groups who just wanted to kill everyone that didnt follow them or Sadam Hussein.

Its kinda bullshit banning stupid shit like choice of clothing in todays times, after the 60s and 70s with the growing freedom of choices but Denmark is stodgy, traditional and maybe not the country that should take in any more migrants who wear hijab.

sorry but I don't think I understand what you're point is, as it relates to what I said. Are you saying that women living in cultures where they are pressured to wear a burka don't feel persecuted? No ones saying ban it completely, only in certain areas/situations

 

[zephyr]

on the converts thing, my point is, women from western families who face no actual pressure to cover themselves...may do so willingly and excessively in order to show off their religiosity. They may see it as an expression of their faith, whereas women who were born into it, and pressured from the outside, see it as persecution

I was addressing this. I wouldnt think of being raised in a muslim country and in areas that tribal culture have traditionally worn hijab or any other type of clothing would necessarily mean they are persecuted, any more or less than various tartans, sari, or other traditional gear.


Also, its presumptive to assume showing off a religion in a western world, maybe burkas etc just stand out as there arent that many- its normal everyday wear like jeans and shorts here.

So if thats what you meant then I dunno how persecution or showing off can be judged without asking the individual. My friends don't show off or throw their religion in our faces. Its just clothes, doesnt stop anyone doing, saying or feeling anything so why stop them from wearing clothing they want to?


But then again, this is the second "I dont understand what youre going on about" response so maybe Ill go to bed.

 

[mal3volent]

Well, it's only the first from me, and it could have been my fault not yours...the miscommunication I mean.

I've tried to be consistent about not equating the hijab with the burka or niqab. You're right, the hijab is not much different than a scarf or a hood on a sweatshirt. I don't think anyone is even talking about the hijab.

and when I said that western converts may be showing off their religiosity, I just meant, expressing their religion. Not shoving it down other people's throats. I said something to the effect of, they wear it by choice, to perhaps feel more authentically Muslim. Whereas in cultures where women are tacitly or literally forced to cover their entire bodies...those women probably feel a whole lot of shame and persecution.

 

[spacejunk]

I think it's kinda sad how politicised women's body's are; in lots of cultures and lots of different contexts.
There are women who are shunned and shamed for wearing too little, or in this case too much.

I personally am of the opinion that people should be able to live their lives how they want to, without too much interference from the state or other external cultural forces.
On a more practical level, i think that even if this sort of "burqa ban" is well-intentioned, it is actually just going to make the lives of the women affected more complicated and difficult.

I can only begin to imagine how hard it must be to be forced to choose between following your religion/culture/family/community and following the laws of the country you live in. I feel sorry for the women that will be impacted by this.

 

[JessFR]

Would it be so bad if people just minded their own damn business and not worry about what other people are wearing? It's all so much bs.

 

[ElleAZ]

As a woman, who was raised in a time where Christianity was reviled for its oppression of women because it wouldn't allow them to wear the cloth and represent the church, I don't get the support for women covering themselves because they are not a whole person.

I've been told that to cover the body is to remove the physical image from the conversation where their ideas shine through. That wouldn't be necessary if they weren't viewed as owned sexual objects. Respected women don't get punished for showing ankles.

Every country has a right to protect itself by requiring that citizens can be easily identified.

 

[mal3volent]

Again...these

Politicizing women's bodies
mind your damn business!
women actually like being covered head to toe

arguments don't hold up.

Politicizing something implies that I (or someone) has something to gain or that I'm simply trying to push an anti-Muslim agenda. I have nothing to gain and I'm definitely not anti-Muslim. Whether you look at it from a psychological perspective or a social perspective, there's no way this isnt damaging. To women in particular, but also the broader population. If you ask me, it's the men promoting these sexist practices who are politicizing women's bodies, not those of us who simply want women to be free. And no, normalizing cultural behaviors that were created to persecute women is not promoting freedom.

jess, what is anyone supposed to say to a "mind your business" argument? That's not really saying a lot. If there's a topic on a debate forum specifically about this subject, what's wrong with expressing your opinion? Isn't that the point? Couldn't you go in to every thread on CEP and tell everyone to mind their business? I'm sure 50 years ago you could have found plenty of women who were vocally against women's rights. Even in my lifetime I've heard women suggest that their place is at home cooking and making babies...that women just aren't cut out to be President...that men are somehow inherently better than women. That women are happier being subservient to men. This is a result of living in a backwards, southern, baptist culture...not a result of their own independent thought.

my point is, mind your own business is not a particularly helpful social idea if you have progressive values.

 

[zephyr]

^ I read that post as in "the general population" really minding their own buisnes about what ither people wear, not you specifically. You havent said anything anti muslim so its propl not personal mate.

I just think the whole thing is a mountain out of a molehill, having said that though- the burkas have been misused as a weapon of war in other countries with burkas and shapeless clothing hiding bombs in Indonesia with those family suicide bombers. There were 500 people allowed to return from fighting and training with ISIS in Syria.

Denmark may think burkas are a genuine security risk but its hardly fair to do that if the women are all security and background cleared and havent been seen making contact with terrorists.

 

[JessFR]

Yeah it was directed broadly. It was a brief comment, not a complex argument and not directed anywhere in particular.

I just don't see this whole burka thing as a real problem. Seems like a bs problem, where more trouble and drama comes from arguing about the problem than the supposed problem.

The only remotely valid argument I've ever heard is the security argument, and I just don't buy it. It seems like one of those hypothetical problems that exist in people's imaginations more than in reality.

When people's started writing things down, some invented the problem that it would cause people to stop using their memory. Then later when film and radio came around, some people invented the problem that it would kill off writing. In either case, it's the fear of something new changing something familiar. The argument is nothing more than a half assed justification to try and oppose the change.

Some people just love imagining problems. . They dream up hypothetical problems imagined into existence to substitute for their much harder to justify objection, the one thing all these imagined problems share in common. That being that "I just can't stand the unfamiliar". "I don't want things to change".

Muslims are unfamiliar to these types of people, so they try and imagine justifications to make life harder and prevent progression, to keep everything forever the same.

There's another thing that all these imagined problems have in common, apart from all being fear of the unfamiliar. They all universally failed to stop change and progression in the long term.

 

[mal3volent]

What exactly is being imagined or made up? There are places where women are expected to cover their bodies at all times because they may provoke a sexual advance from a man. A man who is probably in shorts and sunglasses walking down the street next to her.

This sick behavior is pushed under the rug because some have successfully disguised it as a religious practice. But it's not. It's a way to control women...a way to own them...because they are not seen as equals.

and now, good hearted western liberals are normalizing it because they fear to do otherwise would be perceived as bigoted or islamophobic.

 

[JessFR]

That there's a problem, that's what's being made up.

All that matters here is that adults are allowed to do what they want provided it's not hurting anyone. I generally don't believe in babying adults or in rescuing people from themselves. It's not for you or me to decide to "rescue" women who wear burkas nor do we need to understand why they'd want to. Even if you were right, I see it as the same as forcibly "rescuing" cult members. It's a concept that exists to be misused.

If women wearing burkas want to stop wearing them, I'm on board with fighting any attempt to prevent them removing them. But I'm not OK with this idea of "we know better and you're being oppressed and if you think otherwise, it's cause you're too oppressed to see how oppressed you are". Fuck that shit.

It takes some next level mental gymnastics to turn banning clothes into fighting for liberty.

 

[zephyr]

Their bodies etc are basically private for their husband and female friends/family not because of men being uncontrollable though that might be the case as well at times- what women wear out sometimes gets taken as a "she wants sex" thing hence the "you deserved it since you wore that skirt" thing. Male muslims dont exactly bring out the latest fashion and tight fitting clothes either.


Men and women have always been different. Equality and gender roles is a touchy subject as both are equally as important obviously. Its like saying whats more superior and important- an orange or a banana?

 

[mal3volent]

I'm not campaigning to invade foreign lands and force equality onto others.

what I am advocating is for people like you and I --when given the opportunity-- to express our true feelings about this archaic and sexist bullshit. And luckily we are allowed to do that here.

 

[JessFR]

Well that's fine. If you wanna say that a cultural expectation that compels women to wear a burka or niqab and men can wear whatever is sexist and bullshit, I both support your right to do so and agree. I just don't agree with banning burkas, that's all.

I don't follow the "all cultures are valid and only different and never wrong" ultra left ultra tolerance bs either.

 

[zephyr]

Assuming sexism from outside the muslim world is kinda normal but maybe its not sexism to the majority who arent suffering under extremist rule. Its just gender roles, acceptable behaviour and social constructs that are different.

It would be pretty impossible to go out in Saudi Arabia without being covered up as thats normal there so maybe it amounts to the same thing in Denmark? I dunno.

 

[quiet roar]

Men and women have always been different. Equality and gender roles is a touchy subject as both are equally as important obviously. Its like saying whats more superior and important- an orange or a banana?

Testify!

 

[swilow]

Equality isn't about being the same though. Its about equal rights and opportunities under the law. Obviously there are biological differences between men and women, but that needn't translate into the powerful societal differences that we are facing.

 

[cduggles]

I don't think it's okay to mandate what women wear.

----
The burka issue is rooted in a much larger discussion about Islam. The reason is I don't want to discuss Islamic culture here is because it's like discussing Christian culture in light of Amish traditions. Generalities aren't applicable to almost a quarter of the world Islamic population.

If someone wants to talk about Wahhabism, or other Sunni sects, or the Shia, then that's the beginning of a conversation about Muslims for me.

----
A gal's guide to oppressive clothing:

Women who are born into a culture might have greater acceptance rates to wearing a burka or similar garment. Who knows?
Source

----
A slight tangent:
An example of trying to force women back to the Stone Ages, including burkas, is interesting:
When the Taliban gained power over Afghanistan, all women's rights were essentially revoked. Allegedly, the role of women was modeled on traditional Islamic practices, but it was really just a bunch of uneducated men oppressing women.

The crackdown ranged mandated women wearing burkhas, being forced into matrimony, and limiting education.

Source 1

Kabul, 1972

Professional women such as lawyers, professors, translators, artists and writers have been forced out of their jobs and made to stay home...

There are reports that women and children in Kabul are suffering from severe psychological disorders and depression. Some women commit suicide rather than live under Taliban rule or witness their children suffering from hunger or starving to death...

Many schools, government offices and hospitals have had to be shut down, since women make up 70 percent of Afghanistan?s teachers, 50 percent of civilian government workers and 40 percent of the country?s physicians. Women make up 65-75 percent of the Afghan population, since a huge number of men have been killed during the decades of civil war and Soviet occupation.

So there weren't enough skilled men to do some jobs, and the segregation of women made things like dental care inaccessible to women.

And many women, including widows without a male relative to accompany them outside were forced into prostitution, as were many children. (Apparently the Taliban were mostly okay with it for some reason.)

Source 2

Due to poverty, forced marriages, and lack of access to education, suicides and suicide attempts among women increased in Taliban-controlled areas such as Herat. Some were by self-immolation.

Source 3 graphic material

Source 4 graphic material

Nothing says wanting to die like self-immolation.

Obviously, women have a lot to worry about in Afghanistan besides wardrobe.

However, anecdotally, they don't like burkas though.
Source 5


Short story long, women who have known a freer life want the opportunity to become educated, work, marry who they'd like, and not have to wear a bland body bag because of a group of men who are unable to control themselves.

----
On a somewhat lighter note:
An unwritten rule that could be enforced by 'doorkeepers' prevented women from wearing pants on the Senate floor until 1993. Source

----
I thought this article was funny (and I disagree with a lot of it.)
But, it cites the Department of Homeland Security of the United States, which published a document that communicated the threatening possibility that women would use burqas or pregnancy prosthetics to hide bombs.

 

[swilow]

^Very informative cdugz