Denmark's burka ban will send Muslim women further underground

[cduggles]

Hi invegauser!

It's odd to think that legislation can dictate (beyond perhaps indecent exposure) what women wear.

I don't ever want to wear anything unless I want to wear it, particularly a burqa. But if I wanted to wear one, (actually it would be great to not be known as foreign if in Saudi Arabia, etc.), it is bizarre to think I would be prevented legally from doing so.

I've been to places where one had to wear something like a dress or skirt to ankle length and modest shirt.

Except for climbing a waterfall with slippery rocks, it was fine. (Missionaries left their mark. )

So in that sense, I'm not going to get all bent out of shape.

---

Countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are so oppressive to women.

The father of a friend of mine was a diplomat to one of the countries (shall remain nameless) where they practice female genital mutilation. When the diplomat got to know the local men well enough, he said they always asked what it was like to have sex with a woman who enjoyed it.

He ended up teaching international relations at Georgetown University.

Bizarre.

 

[JessFR]

Im just going to say whats been said to me by my Muslim coworkers, theres a fair few from all areas like Lebanon, Dubai, Somalia and Indonesia.


They all wear very different headcoverings which are mainly based on tribal tradition and wear them happily because they are proud of their rite of passage into adulthood.

They are a symbol of being a grown up adult woman, this is just my friends though as theres a sinister side in some areas of course.

My friend who wears the full head cover wears beautiful makeup anyway.

Denmark is a country that has very strict rules to keep its traditions going in the way they always have so this is not a suprise, yes it is going to drive the women underground. They wont be able to leave their house, its brutally unfair and I hope they are going to be ok.

Denmark are strict on many things and the parents of kids dont get much choice when naming their kids, as an example of govt control on freedom of choice.

There are 15000 male names and 18000 female and all spelling must be traditional and on that list.

So making this ruling might not seem that brutal there.

Sounds like Denmark would not be a country I would want to live in then.

About your coworkers and Muslim culture. Part of the reason people have certain stereotypes about Muslims, like that all Muslim women wear the hijab or whatever. Is it's all self reenforced. There are large demographics of Muslims from elsewhere in the world other than the traditional middle eastern locations, with their own often quite different cultural expectations. Because they're less visible, most people just don't register that they're heavily Muslim demographics to start with.

There are a LOT of Muslims that don't come from the middle east and don't follow the middle eastern Islamic stereotypes and cultural rules. But they tend to be much less visible because of that. And so people tend to fail to notice their existence, and think all Muslims are either middle eastern or descended from there.

Not saying you're doing that, your comment about your coworkers just made me think of it.

Something else I find interesting, is that at the level of face covering as say, a hijab, we are basically talking about something identical to the cleric clothing items worn by catholic nuns, yet you hear absolutely nobody making a fuss about that.

 

[zephyr]

^ Yes there would be many women who don't wear any traditional clothing and theres a couple of female pathologists from Iran who I dont know officially are muslim and wouldnt know if my coworkers hadnt told me they discuss their cultures with them.

The women who do are noticed as muslim by their clothing and headwear, like the Jewish bloke with his cap thing (I dunno who he is, he just works next to us and is jewish, again physically identifiable ).

Its not anything weird or unusual but kinda nice to have some variety of different people around as the world would be boring if we all were the same.


Its a bit rich to include people into a country and allowing them to wear their traditional clothes then outlawing that choice after the fact.

It would be a different story altogether if the headwear was known to be outlawed first and have the choice to live there without it in the first place.

The women there now should be given some exemption and if that means a police clearance then that should be ok, Denmark is very strict and should have had this in place if thats how they felt.

But its not like a country would take into account a small population being affected, they matter as much as anyone so could try a class action lawsuit.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

This is a very good thing. Religion is meant to be private, and it's not as though they are saying that nobody can be Muslim or practise Islam in Denmark.

Friedrich III von Preu?en hat die ber?hmten Worte gesagt: die Religionen M??en
alle Tolleriret werden
Fr.
und Mus der fiscal nuhr
das auge darauf haben
das keine der anderen
abruch Tuhe, den hier
mus ein jeder nach
Seiner Fa?on Selich
werden

?Die Religionen M?sen alle Tolleriret werden und Mus der fiscal nuhr das auge darauf haben, das keine der andern abruch Tuhe, den hier mus ein jeder nach Seiner Fasson Selich werden!"

[Rand-Verf?gung des K?nigs zum Immediat-Bericht des Geistlichen Departements: Katholische Schulen und Proselytenmacherei; Berlin, 22. Mai 1740]?

― Frederick the Great


Die Religionen m?ssen alle toleriert werden und es muss der Staat ein Auge darauf haben, dass keine der anderen einen Abbruch tue (Schaden zuf?gt), denn hier (in Preu?en) kann jeder nach seiner Facon selig werden.

Das ist das ber?hmte Toleranzedikt. Das gilt noch heute. Es wird nicht missioniert und Religion findet NUR im Privaten statt, Nicht ?ffentlich.

Das gilt auch f?r Frankreich. Moslemische Frauenbekleidung ist unerw?nscht.

Frederick III of Prussia has said the famous words: the religions must be
all become Tolleriret
???Fr.
and Mus fiscal failed
keep an eye on it
none of the others
Do not forget this
everyone follows
His Fa?on Selich
become

"The religions of Munich will all be Tolleriret, and Mus fiscal would have to keep an eye on it, none of the other ones will break off, and everyone here will do so according to his style Selich!"

[King's Edge Order on the Immediate Report of the Department of the Clergy: Catholic schools and proselytizing; Berlin, May 22, 1740] "

- Frederick the Great

The religions must all be tolerated and the state must keep an eye on the fact that none of the others does a demolition (harm), because here (in Prussia) everyone can be blessed in his own way.

This is the famous Tolerance Edict. That still applies today. It is not proselytized and religion is ONLY private, not public.

This also applies to France. Muslim women's clothing is undesirable.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Sounds like Denmark would not be a country I would want to live in then.

About your coworkers and Muslim culture. Part of the reason people have certain stereotypes about Muslims, like that all Muslim women wear the hijab or whatever. Is it's all self reenforced. There are large demographics of Muslims from elsewhere in the world other than the traditional middle eastern locations, with their own often quite different cultural expectations. Because they're less visible, most people just don't register that they're heavily Muslim demographics to start with.

There are a LOT of Muslims that don't come from the middle east and don't follow the middle eastern Islamic stereotypes and cultural rules. But they tend to be much less visible because of that. And so people tend to fail to notice their existence, and think all Muslims are either middle eastern or descended from there.

Not saying you're doing that, your comment about your coworkers just made me think of it.

Something else I find interesting, is that at the level of face covering as say, a hijab, we are basically talking about something identical to the cleric clothing items worn by catholic nuns, yet you hear absolutely nobody making a fuss about that.

All of this is very true. People of all races practise Islam or are Muslim. Islam is not only or mainly for black people or people who are Arabic, or South Asian, but Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali discovered this when they started to pratise actual Islam and went to Mecca on a religious pilgrimage.

I am not a fan of the Roman Catholic church and their priests, bishops, nuns, or the pope and hierarchy. Or how in a lot of places and countries some Roman Catholics are worse than fundamentalist Christians with publically proclaiming how they are Roman Catholic.

 

[swilow]

Stay on topic priest.

 

[JessFR]

This is a very good thing. Religion is meant to be private, and it's not as though they are saying that nobody can be Muslim or practise Islam in Denmark.

Friedrich III von Preu?en hat die ber?hmten Worte gesagt: die Religionen M??en
alle Tolleriret werden
Fr.
und Mus der fiscal nuhr
das auge darauf haben
das keine der anderen
abruch Tuhe, den hier
mus ein jeder nach
Seiner Fa?on Selich
werden

?Die Religionen M?sen alle Tolleriret werden und Mus der fiscal nuhr das auge darauf haben, das keine der andern abruch Tuhe, den hier mus ein jeder nach Seiner Fasson Selich werden!"

[Rand-Verf?gung des K?nigs zum Immediat-Bericht des Geistlichen Departements: Katholische Schulen und Proselytenmacherei; Berlin, 22. Mai 1740]?

― Frederick the Great


Die Religionen m?ssen alle toleriert werden und es muss der Staat ein Auge darauf haben, dass keine der anderen einen Abbruch tue (Schaden zuf?gt), denn hier (in Preu?en) kann jeder nach seiner Facon selig werden.

Das ist das ber?hmte Toleranzedikt. Das gilt noch heute. Es wird nicht missioniert und Religion findet NUR im Privaten statt, Nicht ?ffentlich.

Das gilt auch f?r Frankreich. Moslemische Frauenbekleidung ist unerw?nscht.

Frederick III of Prussia has said the famous words: the religions must be
all become Tolleriret
???Fr.
and Mus fiscal failed
keep an eye on it
none of the others
Do not forget this
everyone follows
His Fa?on Selich
become

"The religions of Munich will all be Tolleriret, and Mus fiscal would have to keep an eye on it, none of the other ones will break off, and everyone here will do so according to his style Selich!"

[King's Edge Order on the Immediate Report of the Department of the Clergy: Catholic schools and proselytizing; Berlin, May 22, 1740] "

- Frederick the Great

The religions must all be tolerated and the state must keep an eye on the fact that none of the others does a demolition (harm), because here (in Prussia) everyone can be blessed in his own way.

This is the famous Tolerance Edict. That still applies today. It is not proselytized and religion is ONLY private, not public.

This also applies to France. Muslim women's clothing is undesirable.

Crazy thought. Maybe people should be allowed allowed to wear what they want regardless of religion?

Seems to me what qualified as "shoving a belief down someone's throat" is becoming increasingly broad. Seems to me what it actually means is "you reminded me that belief exists, and I hate that so it feels like it's being shoved down my throat" when in fact all that's happened is someone had the audacity to exist within your field of vision.

 

[Droppersneck]

All of this is very true. People of all races practise Islam or are Muslim. Islam is not only or mainly for black people or people who are Arabic, or South Asian, but Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali discovered this when they started to pratise actual Islam and went to Mecca on a religious pilgrimage.

I am not a fan of the Roman Catholic church and their priests, bishops, nuns, or the pope and hierarchy. Or how in a lot of places and countries some Roman Catholics are worse than fundamentalist Christians with publically proclaiming how they are Roman Catholic.

Stay on topic priest.

<SNIP>

I saw a woman with a hijab on this weekend up in Michigan at founders festival in like 90 degree weather. I just wish they felt comfortable enough to take it off in extremely uncomfortable situations. I’m good with them wearing it in DMV pics, etc.. I just wish it was more of a personal
Decision VS something that is enforced.

 

[swilow]

I saw a woman with a hijab on this weekend up in Michigan at founders festival in like 90 degree weather. I just wish they felt comfortable enough to take it off in extremely uncomfortable situations. I?m good with them wearing it in DMV pics, etc.. I just wish it was more of a personal
Decision VS something that is enforced.

Making a law to forbid wearing hijab or burka IS enforcing.

I don't especially like these garments but I see no problem in someone wanting to wear what they feel is right for them.

 

[cduggles]

For people who like facts:

 

[mal3volent]

I don't especially like these garments but I see no problem in someone wanting to wear what they feel is right for them.

I'm fine with people wearing what they want, but there are limits to everything. A religion that didn't believe in wearing clothes at all, perhaps wouldn't be met with the same amount of openness. Businesses can force you to wear shirts and shoes, could they force someone to uncover their face? What's the difference?

For women who say, "it makes me feel closer to God"...fine...but I would ask them why they think that brings them closer to God when it's not something prescribed in the Qur'an. Do you just get to shout religious tolerance when it began as a social construct not a religious construct?

Also, doesn't society have a responsibility to discourage acts that basically normalize and promote sexism? Why is no one asking why women have to cover themselves and men don't? Why do women have to hide their bodies to feel closer to god, while men can achieve that by other means? When young girls walk down the street and see this kind of thing, what is that doing to their impressionable minds? Even for a young mind, it's not difficult to connect a woman (ONLY women) hiding her body in public with feelings of shame.

and I again would bring up the point that most women in western countries that wear burka or niqab are either converts going to extremes to seem authentic or/and young Muslims who do not understand or appreciate the struggle older generations of Muslim women had to go through to fight this kind of oppression.

 

[swilow]

^You raise valid points and of course I agree that there are limits to rights.

People do criticise the culture that gives rise to these sort of oppressive dogmas but the current t political and social climate gives too much allowance for religious expression and isn't tolerant of critics. But I will say that criticising a cultural trope from outside the culture is rather empty and purposeless in being too distant to both understand it and effect much change. The movement for equal rights for women in Islamic countries is going to have to come from within those countries. From here I think we're just throwing stones at glass houses (if I used the saying correctly, I'm not sure ) As I've said though, I don't especially like burkas and what they represent to me.

Ho do you know most burka wearing women are converts, etc.?

 

[mal3volent]

@swilow

I've not looked to see if there are actual statistics. Pretty much just going off what I've read in interviews/articles and seen in videos over the years. There are hours of really informative public forums, interviews, news pieces, debates etc on this topic from various perspectives. In theocratic and near theocratic countries, of course, it's not really a choice. What I said is based on western countries and doesn't include the hijab which isn't that invasive imo.

Criticising a cultural trope from outside the culture isn't purposeless if only for the fact that we are having a discussion about it here and now. It's important to think about these types of things even if you aren't part of the culture, which I assume is why you made the thread. I don't really think we're throwing stones from glass houses either. Women and men are more equal here than they've ever been, and we are constantly looking for ways to get closer and closer to the goal. Normalizing this kind of thing is going in the opposite direction.

 

[swilow]

@swilow

I've not looked to see if there are actual statistics. Pretty much just going off what I've read in interviews/articles and seen in videos over the years. There are hours of really informative public forums, interviews, news pieces, debates etc on this topic from various perspectives. In theocratic and near theocratic countries, of course, it's not really a choice. What I said is based on western countries and doesn't include the hijab which isn't that invasive imo.

Hmm, it could just be that newer, Western converts are more willing to appear in interviews and videos?

I still don't quite understand why this would make much difference to the issue, if it is case.

Criticising a cultural trope from outside the culture isn't purposeless if only for the fact that we are having a discussion about it here and now. It's important to think about these types of things even if you aren't part of the culture, which I assume is why you made the thread. I don't really think we're throwing stones from glass houses either. Women and men are more equal here than they've ever been, and we are constantly looking for ways to get closer and closer to the goal. Normalizing this kind of thing is going in the opposite direction.

But what is us having this discussion, or the other endless discussions about Islam that appear across the net, really achieving? I agree that it is valuable to have this discussion for our own understanding but I was thinking more along the lines of the cultural superiority on display in passing laws to ban certain garments. But, I appreciate your posts because I wasn't looking at the issues you are raising, and I might need to think more before I come to a conclusion about my stance.

I would say that simply having cultural exchange with the more liberal west will probably enact some sort of equality movement in currently grossly unequal societies, but I wonder if you can force this upon a society too soon? A bit off topic, but there are always unintended and unexpected consequences when sudden social change occurs.

 

[mal3volent]

Well unfortunately that is the sad reality of the world. Countries have their sovereignty, and we can't just go in to all of them with tanks and force equality and secularism down their throats. If we've learned anything over the past 20 years, it's that.

Having these conversations won't change anything, other than maybe opening peoples mind. Changing someone's perspective. Then those people go out in the real world and have a conversation with someone else, and that person does the same thing. And so on.

on the converts thing, my point is, women from western families who face no actual pressure to cover themselves...may do so willingly and excessively in order to show off their religiosity. They may see it as an expression of their faith, whereas women who were born into it, and pressured from the outside, see it as persecution.

 

[alasdairm]

Religion is meant to be private...

says who?

you'd have no issue banning the wearing of crucifixes in public? people praying in public? people thanking god in speeches? right?

Seems to me what qualified as "shoving a belief down someone's throat" is becoming increasingly broad. Seems to me what it actually means is "you reminded me that belief exists, and I hate that so it feels like it's being shoved down my throat" when in fact all that's happened is someone had the audacity to exist within your field of vision.

amen.

it's odd/confusing/ironic/etc. for me to see people who aren't an sjw liberal cucktard like me being triggered so easily

alasdair

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

says who?

you'd have no issue banning the wearing of crucifixes in public? people praying in public? people thanking god in speeches? right?

amen.

it's odd/confusing/ironic/etc. for me to see people who aren't an sjw liberal cucktard like me being triggered so easily

alasdair

Nice assumption. Yes I do have a problem with all of the scenarios you describe. Didn't you read my previous post about how Roman Catholics are worse at doing all the scenarios you described in your post than even very extreme Fundamentalist Christians can be?

Also, there's a clear separation between church or mosque, temple, Synagogue, etc. and state in most civilised and developed countries.

 

[alasdairm]

Nice assumption.

no assumption. just asking you questions.

Yes I do have a problem with all of the scenarios you describe.

ok. but you didn't answer the question. should people be banned from wearing crucifixes in public. should sporting figures and actors be banned from thanking god in an acceptance speech?

alasdair

 

[JackiePeyton]

What I have a problem with is all these Christians going to other countries on these mission trips feeling like they are doing so much good. Help starts at home. My church tends to keep it that way. I won't volunteer for that shit. I worry about my own home and what they wear in other countries, I don't give a rats ass about.

 

[cduggles]

^ Agreed

To be fair, there are some great religious organizations that are really helping without proselytizing in areas that desperately need it.
There are many that are arguably coercing people to adopt their religion for things like food. Not okay.