Denmark's burka ban will send Muslim women further underground

[Yourbaker]

How does imposing your belief on someone else make you safer?

 

[swilow]

I continue to be amazed how far well-intentioned liberals, often atheists, are willing to go in order to defend anything even remotely related to Islam. It's definitely a post 9/11 phenomenon...no doubt started as a pushback against the heinous islamophobia perpetrated by the right. But it really has gone too far.

It cannot be me you are referring to here because I haven't defended Islam in the slightest.

For example, Swilow, if were to say, "Mohammad was a pedophile"...what is your first reaction to that? Is it concern for the child that was abused and taken advantage of, or is it concern that my statement might be offensive to Muslims?

Hmm, neither mate, that's something of a false dilemma. In truth, when I read that sort of stuff I assume its from someone bashing Islam. I certainly don't know how one can truly, sincerely show "concern for the child that was abused and taken advantage" in the context of Mohammads 'marriage'to Aisha- we are talking about historical figures here that may not even have existed in a way that requires or elicits sympathy. Of course, like you I find the story disgusting and by our standards Mohammad is/was a paedophile.

What exactly do you mean by that? I've tried for ten minutes to figure out what point you're trying to make. Are you saying any female that supports a ban on burka/niqab in public spaces in some kind of traitor? Siding with men over their own kind? Also, you use the term "evil bodies" (I assume) as a criticism of how men have historically viewed women...but what boggles my mind is how you would then turn around and defend the burka/niqab as if it's some kind of feminist fashion statement.

I did nothing of the sort. You are assuming an awful lot here Mal. I'm not calling anyone a traitor, I am not sure why you would think that.

I stand by my statement that, historically, men have been awfully concerned with the attire of women. We see it in all the archaic, primitive religions and definitely in Islam. Its men who wrote the Koran and other Islamic texts and men who determined that women should cover up their evil and sinful bodies (and yes, of course I am being sarcastic here) and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that it is also men saying that women should not be allowed to cover up their bodies in this Danish instance. I wasn't really making a value judgement on this but was more making a secondary point about hypocrisy and patriarchal values.

You don't see many women wanting men to wear anything in particular- and that is fortunate, given the fashion sense of many men

The burka predates Islam. As someone said, they are never even mentioned in the Quran. Of course, as in all religious texts, it says you should be modest in your dress...but something like the burka in particular is an outrageous mutilation of the concept of modesty. The truth is, historically, women have either been forced or tacitly forced to wear these things because, historically, women have been treated as PROPERTY of men. Property that has to be concealed and protected, so that they won't tempt other men into stealing their purity. This is the ideology and culture that necessitated the use of the burka.

I'm not defending the burka, nor the hisorical meaning and context of the burka. I am saying that women/humans should be allowed to wear what they want. Governments do not have a role to play in determining the limit to such personal freedoms.

No doubt that ideology was widely adopted by Muslims through time, but you cannot simply cry "freedom of religion!" in defense of these garments. They are not specifically prescribed by Islam, therefore it is not some sort of sacred religious practice essential to ones adherence to their faith.

Again, I wish you wouldn't assume my position because I never said anything about religious freedom. Personally, I do not see why we pay so much lip service to what amounts to primitive, unscientific fantasy but that's a topic for another thread. Religious freedom is never a particularly good reason for permitting or excusing certain actions either way.

FWIW, I dislike the burka and hijab immensely and pretty much all the trappings, conceits and moral exclusions religions like Islam are given. But if you want to wear some fabric on your face, do it. I'm not going to force you to stop because it offends my sensibilities.

As to the idea that governments can't or shouldn't tell women what they can't wear...well...what would happen if ten black men put on ski masks and walked down the street? What would happen to anyone if they covered their face and walked into a bank? In a time when a terrorist attack can happen anytime anywhere... would any of you feel comfortable in a crowded public area where such activity was taking place?

I don't agree that you can equate women wearing a burka with terrorists. The vast majority of terrorist incidents are perpetrated by males; we're not trying to control what they wear though. If we were trying to protect society from terrorists, we'd have better luck in banning the male gender.

Society would freak out if black men donned ski masks and walked the streets. People would start assuming they are criminals and have something to hide. They might have something to hide but they might just be wearing ski masks and probably are- in the same light, women in burka's are probably not about to blow themselves up.

My stance has nothing to do with the religion, and is pretty much solely predicated on the idea that the government should not intervene in matters such as personal attire. That said, I don't particularly want people to roam the streets naked so I don't know if the issue is black and white or not.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Society would freak out if black men donned ski masks and walked the streets. People would start assuming they are criminals and have something to hide. They might have something to hide but they might just be wearing ski masks

Lol wut? Who the hell just wears ski masks other than skiers? lol

I don't agree with a lot of what malevolent said, but at the same time I think it's foolish to deny that hiding one's face could post security risks in certain situations.

 

[swilow]

Certainly and am not denying it.

 

[cduggles]

I wonder how many Danish female politicians supported this. Womens clothing and their evil bodies usually seems to concern men more so. Why is that?

Men are more "visual". That is why we have strip clubs. 8)

Men are not concerned with what women wear. They are concerned with our evil bodies. Or "wicked bodies". :D

 

[JessFR]

To me this feels very much like one of those issues where the objective can be good but the means of carrying it out bad.

Some people just see this as an opportunity to fight Muslims, and fuck those guys. But others just honestly feel women are being oppressed and legitimately want to do something about it. And that's understandable. But this is the wrong way to go about trying to do something about it. Fact is there are many Muslim women who honestly want to wear a burka or (more frequently) niqab and would continue wanting to even if nobody was compelling them at all. Simply forcing them not too isn't the right way to change that (if you're of the opinion it should be changed), and frankly I don't think anyone has the right to tell grown adults what kind of cloths the can and can't wear.

As for security. There are ways around that problem that I'm pretty sure are halal. You simple have a female member of security or law enforcement confirm the identity. That seems like a perfectly fair compromise for everyone involved if you ask me.

 

[nuttynutskin]

As for security. There are ways around that problem that I'm pretty sure are halal. You simple have a female member of security or law enforcement confirm the identity. That seems like a perfectly fair compromise for everyone involved if you ask me.

So every place with security concerns has to hire a female security guard if they don't have one? Doesn't sound very feasible or reasonable to me. Hell, I've been asked to take off my sunglasses when making a bank transaction so I don't think it's to much to ask that everyone has to show their face in certain situations. I'm fine with people wearing and practicing whatever religion they want, but I don't think they should get special treatment in regards to laws/society.

 

[JessFR]

So every place with security concerns has to hire a female security guard if they don't have one? Doesn't sound very feasible or reasonable to me. Hell, I've been asked to take off my sunglasses when making a bank transaction so I don't think it's to much to ask that everyone has to show their face in certain situations. I'm fine with people wearing and practicing whatever religion they want, but I don't think they should get special treatment in regards to laws/society.

Who says it has to be a security guard? Why can't it be a female staff member? All that's needed is for someone trusted by the bank to conform that the person in question is who they claim to be. That a bank should have a single female staff member able to do that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

This isn't a hypothetical solution, it's implemented in some places and seems to work fine. And it's not enormously dissimilar from other policies that are pretty common the world over. When I was arrested a couple years ago, me and the cop who arrested me had to wait around for about half an hour for a female officer to arrive so I could be searched. Since it's against policy for male officers to search female suspects and vice versa in non emergency situations. If they can manage that given how often the situation must come up, it can't be that onerous.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Doesn't really matter who it is, I just don't think society needs to bend based on what someone's religion tells them as long as it's not for the purpose of being discriminatory. There's a damn good reason why you have to show your face in various scenarios in modern society. I don't think one's religion or beliefs should have any sway on the matter. For instance in the case of Islam, if you're devout you're supposed to pray 5 times a day, yet there could be any number of reasons why that's not possible to do in a modern society.

 

[JessFR]

Doesn't really matter who it is, I just don't think society needs to bend based on what someone's religion tells them as long as it's not for the purpose of being discriminatory. There's a damn good reason why you have to show your face in various scenarios in modern society. I don't think one's religion or beliefs should have any sway on the matter.

People's religious beliefs should be respected provided the accommodations are not infeasible or substantially disruptive. And I'm not hearing a reason this can't be done.

All you've given is a largely undefined "numerous situations" where they need to show their face. And largely undefined suggestions that it would be very difficult to accommodate.

If I thought it were truly disruptive and infeasible, I'd agree with you. But I'm not seeing any reason that's the case. And if it can be accommodated, what good reason is there not to do so?

Keep in mind that the number of people who wear burka or even niqabs is very low. It sounds to me like your objection is out of sheer principle. But I don't accept that argument. Yes, there's a limit, a line in the sand where such requests for accommodations based on beliefs get too far, in this we agree. But I'm hearing no reason that this isn't well within the acceptable side of the line.

If they can be accommodated without enormous difficulty or disruption, there's no reason they shouldn't be.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Do you think a muslim at work should be able to take prayer breaks while everyone else is working?

 

[cduggles]

Yes.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Well I don't, because it wouldn't be fair to the other workers/company and sharia law doesn't equal THE law. I have nothing against muslims but I think people have to have their heads in the sand to not see that some aspects of Islam don't mesh with the modern world.

 

[cduggles]

I didn't mention Sharia law. Ffs.

Sigh.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Ok, whatever law or belief system that says you have to have your face covered if you're a female and you have to pray 5 times a day. Is that better?

 

[JessFR]

Do you think a muslim at work should be able to take prayer breaks while everyone else is working?

Mmm, I'd prefer not to make a snap judgement when I feel like I might not have all the facts. But, with that in mind, my initial thinking is no, everyone should have the same overall total break time.

But again it's worth noting that that's an instant impression I'm making without having put much thought into it and not being confident I have all the relevant information.

I also don't see how it's relevant to the burka question. I don't really care too much about the religious side of it. If it were a large group of people making the same request for agnostic reasons I'd be inclined to want to accommodate it provided it's something doable.

So long as the request can be accommodated without much disruption and it's made as part of an honest belief, I'll be inclined towards wanting to make it happen unless there's some pressing reason it can't be done. That it's Islam or even that it's religious isn't something I'm reslly factoring into how I see this question.

 

[Globetrotter]

There are countries around the world which have prayer rooms available to Muslims. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a Muslim taking a break in order to pray to their God. It's kind of like a version of "smoko break", only it is dedicated to more soulful desires

 

[JessFR]

There are countries around the world which have prayer rooms available to Muslims. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a Muslim taking a break in order to pray to their God. It's kind of like a version of "smoko break", only it is dedicated to more soulful desires

I see no problem with that either. I just tend to think the overall amount of free time should be the same for everyone regardless of their religious beliefs. And if they wish to use it to worship their God, that's up to them.

 

[cduggles]

Yes, I support all tenets of Sharia law, and I think I should have to cover everything in a burqa, and my nearest male relative or husband should have to give me permission to go out, and I want to give my education to a man who could use it better than me?!!

Or I just believe that freedom of religion means that people should be able to practice that religion to the extent of praying... and nothing more.

 

[JessFR]

Yes, I support all tenets of Sharia law, and I think I should have to cover everything in a burqa, and my nearest male relative or husband should have to give me permission to go out, and I want to give my education to a man who could use it better than me?!!

Or I just believe that freedom of religion means that people should be able to practice that religion to the extent of praying... and nothing more.

Something I find silly about this is that only a very small number of Muslim women even wear a burqa or niqab. I'm pretty sure FAR more Muslim women don't wear ANY religious clothing. It's getting upset about a nonproblem.