Denmark's burka ban will send Muslim women further underground

[swilow]

Denmark's burka ban will send Muslim women further underground

Denmark has become the latest European country to dictate what a woman can and can't wear. Its parliament passed a new law imposing a penalty of 1,000 Kroner on anyone who wears a garment that hides the face in public.

Although couched in anodyne terms, the law is really aimed at the burka and niqab as revealed by its legislative history and parliamentary intent.

Given the trivial number of women who wear the burka in Denmark (in the low hundreds), what is really animating this costly exercise in lawmaking?

The Justice Minister, S?ren Pape Poulsen, claimed that covering one's face in public is "incompatible with the values in Danish society", and "disrespectful" to others.

What exactly are these Danish values? What about the laws being disrespectful of the basic individual liberty of a person's right to wear clothes of their choice?

The Justice Minister claimed he did "not want police officers pulling items of clothing off people ? burkas or otherwise," and that, "if they live nearby, they will be asked to go home".

He said policemen will have to use their "common sense" when they see people wearing the burka.

A woman's right to wear garments of her choice is to be subjected to a policeman's "common sense?"

To be clear, this law is not about clothing but about what is implied by "Danish values".

Denmark's burka ban is just another step in a creeping shroud of prejudice slowly spreading over Europe.

Burka ban about sending a message to Muslims
Recall that France struck the first blow against the burka in 2011 ? a bizarrely retrograde move for a country that gave us liberty, equality, and fraternity.

Again, the number of women wearing the burka in France was trivial, as I noted in an article in The New York Times then.

So, the law was more about sending a message to Muslims and underlining the broader prejudice against minorities in France.

Since then, Germany and Austria have also adopted laws against burkas or hijabs.

Last month, a Berlin court upheld a government decision to stop a Muslim woman wearing a hijab from teaching primary school students.

The justification was that "primary school children should be free of the influence that can be exerted by religious symbols".

The logic is oxymoronic. Greater exposure rather than insularity might be expected to free children from any negative influences exerted by religious symbols.

The bankruptcy of the state's argument is also evident when viewed against other German attempts targeting the headscarf and promoting Christian religious symbols.

The state of Bavaria decreed on April 24 that all government buildings should display crosses at their entrance.

The display is mandated as "a visible commitment to the basic values of the legal and social order in Bavaria and Germany" and its "cultural identity and Christian-western influence".

How does this square with the previously asserted need to be free from the influence exerted by religious symbols?

In addition, recently, an Algerian-origin woman was denied French citizenship because she declined to shake hands with male public servants due to her religious beliefs.

According to the French Civil Code's article 21-4, that government may "on grounds of indignity or lack of assimilation other than linguistic, oppose the acquisition of the French nationality by the foreign spouse within a period of two years ?"

The court supported the government's decision and said the woman's refusal to shake hands "in a place and at a moment that are symbolic, reveals a lack of assimilation".

To be sure, religious expression has to yield when there is a compelling state interest that warrants it.

-here it is

 

[Ravr]

Fucking bigots. In other words, we will bomb you at your home via NATOand when you come here we will discriminate against you.

 

[swilow]

I actually like the idea of scarfing up as a protest. It's fucking bullshit really.

 

[JessFR]

Title of article is that burka is banned, yet the image itself isn't a burka. Not surprising.

I really don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, I think these laws are bullshit.

 

[Droppersneck]

I think the burka is an oppressive tool used in theocratic societies, that said, banning them is dumb and does little except make your country look backward and oppressive.

 

[Yourbaker]

Perhaps a license for human concealment issued by local authorities and costs about a dollar per person. Just don't be found in public not covered, ever.

License must be presented on request.

Then we could get nude licenses too because any clothing law needs to work both ways.

It is humorous to see how easily people can be made fearful of women in clothes that might be hiding something. The other day I was asked to leave my backpack at the front counter of a retail box store.... I advised the wannabes enforcer that the minute all the women with purses had to leave them at the front counter so would I.

 

[JessFR]

Perhaps a license for human concealment issued by local authorities and costs about a dollar per person. Just don't be found in public not covered, ever.

License must be presented on request.

Then we could get nude licenses too because any clothing law needs to work both ways.

It is humorous to see how easily people can be made fearful of women in clothes that might be hiding something. The other day I was asked to leave my backpack at the front counter of a retail box store.... I advised the wannabes enforcer that the minute all the women with purses had to leave them at the front counter so would I.

Around here the rule is that they can only deny you carrying in a bag that's greater in height and width than an a4 piece of paper. Which includes most backpacks but not most purses. Just a thought.

I think the burka is an oppressive tool used in theocratic societies, that said, banning them is dumb and does little except make your country look backward and oppressive.

Yeah that's pretty much the way I see it. It's bullshit anyway, nothing in the Koran says women gotta wear a burka or niqab, it's bs.

But, there's no denying that a lot of women consider it a part of their culture and WANT to be allowed to wear it, legitimately. And far as I'm concerned nobody has the right to tell them they can't. It's bullshit bigotry.

 

[Yourbaker]

Around here the rule is that they can only deny you carrying in a bag that's greater in height and width than an a4 piece of paper. Which includes most backpacks but not most purses. Just a thought.

I really couldn't find any such size idea anywhere on the internet but it does seem plausible.

Back to the clothing issue I think fear of the unknown is being pedaled. These people that want to wear these clothes, the legitimate religious adherents, don't want to do it to cover up some nefarious practices, they do it out of religious concerns. The problem is that other people who may want to harm you could use this same clothing style to hide their intentions. So could clowns, mascots and Muppets but for some reason I can still dress as Mickey mouse and walk down mainstreet with who knows what strapped to my chest.

People really need to think things through a bit and not get all racial about each other. Also remember the Easter bunny may be packing.

 

[JessFR]

I really couldn't find any such size idea anywhere on the internet but it does seem plausible.

.

I found it out when I was once looking up the regulations for private security in New South Wales, Australia. I wanted to know what the rules were. So I can't attest to it anywhere else. Most likely it's similar Australia wide. Beyond that I have no idea.

 

[swilow]

I wonder how many Danish female politicians supported this. Womens clothing and their evil bodies usually seems to concern men more so. Why is that?

 

[JessFR]

It's a blatant security risk. Glad it's banned.

Anyone who thinks a woman wears that out of choice is literally insane. It is in women's nature to want to look pretty and show off- and this is the exact reason why Muslim men force their women to wear this piece of shit.

What a bunch of bullshit.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Meanwhile in the U.S. 13 year olds walk around looking like hookers...

 

[swilow]

It's a blatant security risk. Glad it's banned.

Anyone who thinks a woman wears that out of choice is literally insane. It is in women's nature to want to look pretty and show off- and this is the exact reason why Muslim men force their women to wear this piece of shit.

Your insight into women makes me think you've spoken to maybe 3?

 

[nuttynutskin]

I think women like anyone else should be required to show their faces in certain situations in public, like say going into a bank or through security but other than that people should wear what they want.

 

[JessFR]

I've slept with over 80 women and was raised exclusively by women. I know how they think, Bucko.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It is what it is. It makes perfect sense if you drop your agenda/bias and look at things from an evolutionary perspective.

Females like to look pretty and attract the attention of potential mates. It's the same in every species. Why the hell would we be any different?

Wow, over 80. Before I thought you were full of shit but now for some reason I find myself thinking you must have a masterful understanding of the human mind!

 

[swilow]

Alright now Chad, cool story an all.

You still shouldn't claim to have any understanding of how women think just because (you expect us to believe) you've slept with "over 80". I've lived with my missus for over 10 years; am still continuously intriguingly mystified and I'd say it's the same with women understanding the psyche of men. Though rather than mystified, it's more like continuously horrified :D.

 

[BehindtheShadow]

^^
This

 

[belligerent drunk]

I hate the fact that muslim women are expected/forced to cover their faces, but my hatred for burkas comes from my hatred of Islam. Banning burkas is only alleviating a symptom, not treating the cause, which makes it dumb. If there were no Islam and muslim women had access to proper education along with equality for women and men in their societies, there would be no burkas. One can dream.

 

[Yourbaker]

It is odd that living in Canada I don't sense or feel any issue with people wearing concealing clothing.

When I consider what the actual cause of this hysteria about clothing that conceal women it isn't the women that are the problem. It's the fear that the American people have been fed about the Muslim people...

Someone is busy lying to you and you're buying their story. Muslim women wearing traditional clothing are not your enemy, you have made many enemies and they will hide from you but I doubt they will use traditional female robes. Specifically if I was Muslim, and I wanted to carry out some hatred filled act against America (the country that is actively oppressing my beliefs and way of life) come up with a single good reason I would choose to use my sister's clothes to do it in?

20 years ago wearing clothing with a pot leaf on it was like asking for a hassle, we did it anyway because we were committed in our belief. These women are not wearing clothes to offend you like we did back then, they wear them because they have religious fears. They believe a story someone else told them and perhaps you can see it may not be entirely true, so is the story about how you should fear them.

Fear is driving America, bad decisions are being made in almost every part of the country. Not everyone has your best interests in mind, these poor people from this third world religious part of the planet came to America because you export culture and success (or at least you market America as successful). They came to America to find the American dream but realized too late it isn't a good one for everyone, it's a selfish dream.

 

[mal3volent]

I continue to be amazed how far well-intentioned liberals, often atheists, are willing to go in order to defend anything even remotely related to Islam. It's definitely a post 9/11 phenomenon...no doubt started as a pushback against the heinous islamophobia perpetrated by the right. But it really has gone too far.

For example, Swilow, if were to say, "Mohammad was a pedophile"...what is your first reaction to that? Is it concern for the child that was abused and taken advantage of, or is it concern that my statement might be offensive to Muslims? I single you out because I respect your intellect, and would sincerely like to know what you think.

I also have a question about this

I wonder how many Danish female politicians supported this. Womens clothing and their evil bodies usually seems to concern men more so. Why is that?

What exactly do you mean by that? I've tried for ten minutes to figure out what point you're trying to make. Are you saying any female that supports a ban on burka/niqab in public spaces in some kind of traitor? Siding with men over their own kind? Also, you use the term "evil bodies" (I assume) as a criticism of how men have historically viewed women...but what boggles my mind is how you would then turn around and defend the burka/niqab as if it's some kind of feminist fashion statement.

I've watched hours of news pieces on this general subject over the years, and from what I can tell, the vast majority of actual Muslim women who are vocally supportive of the burka/niqab are converts. Converts (most of whom choose to wear a hijab) who seemingly defend the burka/niqab because perhaps they feel to do otherwise would make them appear inauthentic. Time and time again, the most vocal female Muslim detractors seem to be those who were born and raised in theocratic/non-western countries and are much more familiar with the culture from which these coverings originate.

The burka predates Islam. As someone said, they are never even mentioned in the Quran. Of course, as in all religious texts, it says you should be modest in your dress...but something like the burka in particular is an outrageous mutilation of the concept of modesty. The truth is, historically, women have either been forced or tacitly forced to wear these things because, historically, women have been treated as PROPERTY of men. Property that has to be concealed and protected, so that they won't tempt other men into stealing their purity. This is the ideology and culture that necessitated the use of the burka.

No doubt that ideology was widely adopted by Muslims through time, but you cannot simply cry "freedom of religion!" in defense of these garments. They are not specifically prescribed by Islam, therefore it is not some sort of sacred religious practice essential to ones adherence to their faith.

As to the idea that governments can't or shouldn't tell women what they can't wear...well...what would happen if ten black men put on ski masks and walked down the street? What would happen to anyone if they covered their face and walked into a bank? In a time when a terrorist attack can happen anytime anywhere... would any of you feel comfortable in a crowded public area where such activity was taking place?

People can disagree, of course, but I think any government is well within their rights to prohibit this sort of thing...as long as it only applies specifically to public spaces and public establishments. Regulating it any further would be counterproductive and taking it to far.