The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere just hit its highest level in 800,000 years

[BehindtheShadow]

Mars kinda steals all the glory but there's a lot of interesting stuff in our solar system. Titan in particular has potential.

Agreed with you Jess, I watched a documentary on Titan and was very interesting indeed

 

[Globetrotter]

I was looking at Loschmidt's paradox, Maxwell's demon/zombies and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) and I remembered reading about J England's concept of dissipation-driven adaptation, which addresses the idea of the growth of complex living systems and even reproduction as probable in a relatively open system that is not near equilibrium with an external energy source in which the energy dissipated is increasingly greater than organizational (non-entropic) energy configurations.

Major implications:


A New Physics Theory of Life

Update:
CONTROVERSIAL NEW THEORY SUGGESTS LIFE WASN'T A FLUKE OF BIOLOGY?IT WAS PHYSICS

OT: We're screwed and we screwed the ecosystem big-time.

Thanks very much for your perspective and those links, lil miss cduggles

This absolutely makes sense to me, particularly with regard to the contrast between Darwinism, physics, and, by association, the latest progressions made in the fields of environmental psychology and behavioural genetics; all of which are often considered to either compliment or contradict one another at any one given point in time.

On a related side note, with marketing currently playing such a sophisticated role in influencing consumer behaviour, it may very well be the case that priming a given group (or subgroup) of humans of particular race (or ethnicity), with a certain stumulii, that, perhaps, even private business (trans-national corporations) could play a role in shaping the future of genetic progression, particularly with regard to the behavioural modernity of homo sapiens.

To think that we may now, as a collective species, possibly influence future genetic diversity with what products are used, and fashion trends followed, is both sobering and fascinating at the same time :D

 

[Globetrotter]

I think we agree on this topic.

When I think about it logically, it seems clear that it must exist in other places too. It's a numbers game.

We're sending a probe to one of Jupiter's moons soon, Europa I think? It's basically a ball of ice with a water ocean inside the ice. They think they've seen silt and organic materials seeping through cracks. I'm really excited to see what we find.

Ever think about living on a moon of Jupiter? The sun would be dim, but for half the day, Jupiter would rise, and the sky would be super trippy.

Imagine if that was your sky during the day.

Mars kinda steals all the glory but there's a lot of interesting stuff in our solar system. Titan in particular has potential.

Agreed with you Jess, I watched a documentary on Titan and was very interesting indeed

Related reading regarding the "atmospheres" and surface composition on Titan and Europa:

Saturn's Moon Titan May Have Earth-Like 'Sea Level'

Decades-Old Data Unveils Plumes Spewing from Europa

 

[Foreigner]

On the topic of the OP... it's too late, the earth is screwed and so are humans. CO2 is only one thing we're fucking up. All the other kinds of pollution we produce combined with our heavy handed resource extraction and destruction of habitat is doing far, far more damage than the global temperature changes. The sad thing is that the planet is being strip mined of everything so that the majority of humans can pleasure themselves and live unawakened lives. The #1 problem that nobody (except maybe China) is willing to face is that we have too many humans on this planet, all vying for a "better life".

About ET... I think we are looking in the wrong place. Because modern humans have dumbed down senses and lack our original sensitivity to nature, we're not going to see what's right in front of us. We use crude machines to materially examine the universe while completing forgetting and dismissing our innate psychic heritage. It takes the development of the third eye to realize and experience multi-dimensions, most of which are not bound by time-space constraints. The astral, which is the easiest for humans to access, allows for instantaneous travel anywhere. There are cosmic highways that lead all over the place but modern life is validated so externally that people will never do the inner work necessary to figure out how to travel them, certainly not on an institutional level.

There's sentient non-material life all around us but because this is the degenerate age where we only have faith in machines and not in ourselves, most of us will never experience it and those who do will be treated as pariahs.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

There's no reason to assume that we aren't in a low-entropy pocket of the universe with (and a lot of other things should be mentioned) fields that have a limited gravitational pull.

Consequently, if the second law of thermodynamics is applicable to the most meta perspective, then outside of the known universe is a high-entropy area, in which there is no intelligent life by definition.

So outside of a limited area, there's no reason to assume that any organization exists or that any other low-entropy pockets even exist, whereas the second law of thermodynamics predicts the opposite.

With regard to the relationships between gravity, time and space, there's also no reason to believe that those balances exist outside of a limited area, and obviously these are interrelated in quantifiable relationships as far as we know (e.g., black holes).

I'm trained primarily in biology but I find it difficult to understand why physics is disregarded by mathematicians and, for lack of a better term, the biological sciences in any discussion about intelligent life beyond Earth.

A discontinuity had to occur for life to evolve, which might be dependent on the irreversibility of time in our little corner of the universe. No reason to think it happened twice.

Indeed.

 

[JGrimez]

Seems few of us have researched the ET phenomenon, abductions, reverse-engineering/suppressed technology, Secret Space Program, etc...

Imagine a cattle farm. Those cows are fenced. They have no idea what's going on outside of their enclosure. Their area is their whole life.
Now there's also a farmer in his house not far away. He has a laptop, smartphone, night-vision goggles, a cattle prod, a forklift and a truck.

There's sentient non-material life all around us but because this is the degenerate age where we only have faith in machines and not in ourselves, most of us will never experience it and those who do will be treated as pariahs.

 

[Noodle]

Pariah is a good word in this context.

 

[JessFR]

Seems few of us have researched the ET phenomenon, abductions, reverse-engineering/suppressed technology, Secret Space Program, etc...

Imagine a cattle farm. Those cows are fenced. They have no idea what's going on outside of their enclosure. Their area is their whole life.
Now there's also a farmer in his house not far away. He has a laptop, smartphone, night-vision goggles, a cattle prod, a forklift and a truck.

Oh I've researched it. I just wish I could get the time back because it's retarded crap.

Some people have this psychological need to feel they are in on a great secret. And need something to feel enraged about. So they find this shit and it gives them what they want. I don't know what it is but I seem to attract conspiracy types and I've spent far far too much of my life giving them the benefit of the doubt. Research time is over. No more research. Now I just ignore them, and if they push me, I'll mock them till they wish I'd ignored them.

 

[cduggles]

Just because someone doesn't believe something doesn't mean they haven't researched it. It can just mean they came to a different conclusion.

 

[JessFR]

As I said above, I seem to attract conspiracy theorists somehow. So unfortunately I know all the major conspiracies and what they believe and who the big names are. Man I wish I didn't.

Cause, if you don't believe it, if you determine it's all exploiting poor reasoning skills, and you have friends and family who believe in it. You end up in this shitty situation where you don't want to hurt them. And let's be honest, there's no nice way to say what at best means I think you're very gullible. I'd imagine it's similar to being a hardcore atheist from a family of devout Christians. Just smile and nod.

I don't believe in ET Jesus.

The average person has all these flaws in their reasoning, and a subset of those people have a psychological need that only amplifies it. So to them, the evidence seems overwhelming and undeniable. It's hard for them to believe anyone could see what they've seen and not believe. The only explanation is you must either not know, or not want to believe bad enough to willfully ignore it. They don't realize they've basically been brainwashed. Makes me feel bad for them. It's very very similar to people who end up in cults. Not bad people, more victims than anything else. But at least with a cult you can often blame the cult leaders. With conspiracies, they come into existence on their own. There's often no one really in charge or responsible for it.

And things like YouTube make it so much worse. They are an environment where natural selection is in play and the most powerful brainwashy materials rise to the top.

 

[JGrimez]

Oh I've researched it. I just wish I could get the time back because it's retarded crap.

Out of the specific subjects I've mentioned which ones did you research, all of them? How much time did you put in before coming to the conclusion that it was all retarded crap? I'd say you got frustrated and gave up quite quickly and was never really honest about what you claim you were doing.
Any honest and dedicated researcher into these fields will at the very least have some questions, or more likely will say that there is something unexplainable happening on our planet.

As I said above, I seem to attract conspiracy theorists somehow. So unfortunately I know all the major conspiracies and what they believe and who the big names are. Man I wish I didn't.

This is important. People talk about all 'conspiracy theories' and group them together. So are you saying that every single one of them is just nonsense? What about the CIA's (or others) potential involvement in the assassination of JFK? That was a conspiracy theory. We're now seeing documents being declassified which lend a lot of weight to these theories.

The Iran-Contra scandal was a conspiracy theory. Until there was evidence it was actually happening.
NSA conducting mass surveillance was a conspiracy theory before Snowden. Plenty more.
Project Mockingbird and MK-Ultra were/are legitimate operations with supporting, official government documents (most destroyed). How much do you know about these specific operations?
Do you get this feeling inside that if you start to look into anything related then you will become an Alex Jones?
As soon as you group every single thing that the mainstream media calls a conspiracy theory into the same category as something obviously false like Flat Earth, is when you consciously decide to cut yourself off to a massive amount of information. Yeah a lot of it is bullshit. But a lot of it is also objective evidence, facts. It's up to the individual to connect the dots.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist - I'm a conspiracy analyst

I don't believe in ET Jesus.

Do you believe Jesus existed at all? Or someone that the religious myths were based on?
Let's say the was a 'Jesus', the fact is it is more likely he was associating with interstellar/inter-dimensional beings, than his mother giving birth to him from immaculate conception.
There are lots of references to ETs in ancient scriptures btw, but you no doubt are aware of them all since you've researched it.

Research time is over. No more research.

Is research time ever over? That's only true when you already know everything already.
Although this does sound like a lot like the global warming alarmists' "the science is settled".

 

[JGrimez]

Climate skeptics more eco-friendly than global-warming alarmists: study
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/7/climate-skeptics-more-eco-friendly-global-warming-/

Al Gore has been accused of hypocrisy for talking the talk on climate change despite burning through fossil fuels at a rapid clip, but it turns out he?s not alone.

A study by Cornell and the University of Michigan researchers found that those ?highly concerned? about climate change were less likely to engage in recycling and other eco-friendly behaviors than global-warming skeptics.
Published in the April edition of the Journal of Environmental Psychology, the one-year study broke 600 participants into three groups based on their level of concern about climate change: ?highly concerned,? ?cautiously worried,? and ?skeptical.?

The ?highly concerned? cluster was ?most supportive of government climate policies, but least likely to report individual-level actions, whereas the ?Skeptical? opposed policy solutions but were most likely to report engaging in individual-level pro-environmental behaviors,? the researchers concluded.

Conducting the study, entitled ?Believing in climate change but not behaving sustainably,? were Cornell assistant professor Neil A. Lewis Jr. and University of Michigan researchers Michael P. Hall and Phoebe Ellsworth.
The skeptics were the more likely than the ?highly concerned? to recycle, use public transportation and reusable

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Al Gore is someone who just show boats on the issue. Agreed.

This doesn't mean you can't make reasonable life changes to help out the earth.

Global warming is real. It's alright to hold different positions on what we should do on it, but to deny it is dangerous. It's like thinking the earth is the center of the universe. People will scoff at your ignorance hundreds of years later.

 

[JGrimez]

Global warming is real. It's alright to hold different positions on what we should do on it, but to deny it is dangerous. It's like thinking the earth is the center of the universe. People will scoff at your ignorance hundreds of years later.

Climate change is real.
Anthropogenic global warming has not been conclusively proven. Anyone who says otherwise has a financial interest in doing so, doesn't understand the science or is appealing to authority.
People will readily admit they do not know as much as climate scientists, yet will confidently parrot their work as gospel.
The sugar lobby paid off Harvard scientists to publish fake studies demonizing dietary fat. $50,000, 50 years ago that suppressed the truth and had a massively negative impact on the world.
Think about how much money is involved in climate change grants.

People will scoff at your ignorance hundreds of years later.

(vaccines)

 

[JessFR]

Out of the specific subjects I've mentioned which ones did you research, all of them? How much time did you put in before coming to the conclusion that it was all retarded crap? I'd say you got frustrated and gave up quite quickly and was never really honest about what you claim you were doing.
Any honest and dedicated researcher into these fields will at the very least have some questions, or more likely will say that there is something unexplainable happening on our planet.

It's not that I researched it one time for a specific amount of time, then concluded it was crap and never looked again. Generally I've looked into a subject, determined it was almost certainly BS, then given it another chance later on when someones claimed to have something "new worth looking at", then come to the same conclusion again. Which specifically? Well all the major conspiracies, 9/11, UFO's, moon hoax, all the retarded shit about HAARP and other projects people don't understand and so believe are evil.

This is important. People talk about all 'conspiracy theories' and group them together. So are you saying that every single one of them is just nonsense? What about the CIA's (or others) potential involvement in the assassination of JFK? That was a conspiracy theory. We're now seeing documents being declassified which lend a lot of weight to these theories.

The Iran-Contra scandal was a conspiracy theory. Until there was evidence it was actually happening.
NSA conducting mass surveillance was a conspiracy theory before Snowden. Plenty more.
Project Mockingbird and MK-Ultra were/are legitimate operations with supporting, official government documents (most destroyed). How much do you know about these specific operations?
Do you get this feeling inside that if you start to look into anything related then you will become an Alex Jones?
As soon as you group every single thing that the mainstream media calls a conspiracy theory into the same category as something obviously false like Flat Earth, is when you consciously decide to cut yourself off to a massive amount of information. Yeah a lot of it is bullshit. But a lot of it is also objective evidence, facts. It's up to the individual to connect the dots.

Well there are conspiracies, then there are "conspiracy theorists". Real conspiracies are easy to tell apart from the bs conspiracy theorists come out with. They tend to be much more incompetent, far less elaborate, and just generally far less retarded sounding. Plus, there's actually evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

JFK "might" have been a conspiracy, it's one of the very few where I'm willing to class it as at least an outside possibility. But if there was a greater agenda at work in the assasination, which I find to be highly unlikely, the conspiracy theorists are still mostly wrong anyway. There was definitely no second gunman. That's just more overly complicated bs conspiracy theorists love to imagine. The idea that the assasination itself was part of a greater conspiracy, unlikely, but at least not the kind of stupid impossible ideas conspiracy theorists usually come up with.

Yes, there have been conspiracies within the government, but in reality most were totally inept and incompetent. Just as you'd expect from the government. MKULTRA is an example. A conspiracy yes, but totally retarded on the governments part. An idiotic waste of money. I've never found any evidence that anything of any real worth came out of the project. The government has come up with lots of really stupid and illegal projects over the years. The difference is in reality the evidence is that it's the result of a bloated incompetent bureaucracy. What's especially stupid about conspiracy theorists is that they BOTH think that the government is so crazy over the top competent as to come up with and sucessfully pull off this kind of shit, but also totally unsucessful at actually keeping any of it secret to the point that conspiracy theorists don't work it all out.

Do you believe Jesus existed at all? Or someone that the religious myths were based on?
Let's say the was a 'Jesus', the fact is it is more likely he was associating with interstellar/inter-dimensional beings, than his mother giving birth to him from immaculate conception.
There are lots of references to ETs in ancient scriptures btw, but you no doubt are aware of them all since you've researched it.

Yes there likely was a man who we know as jesus. That the christian mythology is based off. But no, he was almost definitely not associated with interstellar beings. Let alone inter dimensional beings (for fucks sake, it's never enough with conspiracy theorists, it can't just be aliens, it's gotta be other dimensions, and worse still they don't even know what the word dimension even means!). There is absolutely no evidence of that. There's an easy answer here apart from god and aliens. It's that the story is WRONG. That perhaps Mary might want to lie about getting pregnant to some random man. Or that the whole thing is wrong all together and made up after the fact. And there are no references to ET in ancient scriptures. And yes, I am aware of the stupid shit you're likely talking about.

Like the Sumerian tablets and the anunnaki. God the utter bullshit people imagine. It's all bullshit interpretations. Humans have been recording bullshit for a LONG time. The mormans believe Joseph Smith found golden plates (which would have weighed a fucking ton and match with no way of recording information from the time period) depicting all sorts of shit that is wrong with whats known about prehistoric america. And that magical stones translated it from bullshit egyption into... english, but not the english they spoke at the time. "Ye old english". Apparently god needed to make it sound more like the king james bible for PR purposes. That or it's all bullshit. Is that true too? It can't ALL be true, it's self contradictory. But people are dumb and tend to think old civilizations had access to some amazing secret knowledge and everything written back then was litterally true. Then others believe it was aliens. Not sure which is stupider.

It's not even just that it's often wrong, the interpretations themselves are usually wrong. Conspiracy theorists just make up new interpretations that say what they wanna hear. So ancient civilizations talking about a god becomes talking about aliens. And they start imagining images of grays and space ships and other retarded shit.

Is research time ever over? That's only true when you already know everything already.
Although this does sound like a lot like the global warming alarmists' "the science is settled".

Research time is never over in the broad "learning new things" sense of the word outside any context. But it can definitely be over about a particular subject. And the science IS settled by the way. And you're right, it is similar. Once you've done a sufficient amount of research, why would you waste precious resources doing more? Once everythings been looked into, relooked into, studied, restudied, reverified. Why would you continue the same shit forever? There's being prudent and doing science, and then there's BULLSHIT. and this, is BULLSHIT. Most people are dumb, and can't tell the difference, but there IS a difference.

If I've already looked into something and gotten the same result a hundred times before, then do it a hundred more, WHY would I continue? Just in case it changes on search 201? It was stupid to start with! I could be spending that time learning new things that are real. We live in an amazing age where we can learn almost anything about anything, and morons waste it propagating diseases of thought. I have a name for this by the way, I call it the brain AIDS. When you spend all day watching conspiracy videos on youtube, or propagating such things, that's the brain AIDS. When you think aspartame gives you cancer, that's brain AIDS. And the brain AIDS isn't just humorously retarded. It's seriously dangerous. People die from this stupidity. They trust magic healing water called homeopathy. They think vaccines are giving them autism. Innocent children have died from the retardation of adults.

And this, is what I meant when I said earlier, that I'm happy to just NOT talk about this shit and leave it alone. But if pressed on it, I won't be sugar coating it. But conspiracy theorists feel compelled to spread their beliefs. They think they have evidence that's indisputable. They don't even realize how wrong and unscientific it all is, cause they just don't have the reasoning skills to see it. And they don't know enough about the techniques to manipulate people to realize they've been duped.

Man, I don't like insulting people, but it's like I said earlier in the other thread, some views just can't be sugar coated while preserving the meaning. So when conspiracy theorists don't get the hint, and press me on it, I can either lie, which I don't wanna do, and will invite more conspiracy talk. Or tell the truth. I'd have been happy to just not discuss it at all. Well, not happy, but I accept that it's a phenomenon out of my control, all I can control is how it affects me. So I'm willing to just ignore it. Hell I usually let conspiracy theorists and the other brain AIDS types say their BS to people totally uncontested. Just so we can not have the argument where I'm gonna wind up calling them an idiot. But a lot of the time I'm not given a choice.

I've given all this shit an opportunity to convince me, several times in fact. I've watched hours of this shit. Loose change, ancient aliens bs, and lesser known shit about the amazing life changing powers of the torus. God knows how much of my life I won't get back because of a combination of knowing way too many victims of the brain AIDS and my own desire to give everything the benefit of the doubt and be sure I've given even stupider ideas the time to make their case. Every time its the same. There's a point at which you've done your due diligence and are right to stop wasting time on it anymore.

 

[JGrimez]

OK so thanks for the reply but you really need to stop calling people dumb. If I'm being completely honest I find what you are saying "dumb" but there's no need for me to repeatedly tell you that. It doesn't help and it doesn't change or sway anyone's mind. It's also extremely condescending because from my point of view you've either not taken a serious and discerning look at these things, or you are simply not adept enough to separate the legitimate leads from the disinformation.

Well there are conspiracies, then there are "conspiracy theorists". Real conspiracies are easy to tell apart from the bs conspiracy theorists come out with. They tend to be much more incompetent, far less elaborate, and just generally far less retarded sounding. Plus, there's actually evidence that stands up to scrutiny.

OK so now we're getting some clearer definitions but you're still not addressing the important issue. One specific theory can have a whole bunch of nonsense attached to it but still some information that is legitimate. That is how disinfo works by muddying the waters, the goal being to overwhelm someone like yourself with all the nonsense that they completely discard the entire theory (throwing the baby out with the bathwater)

Yes, there have been conspiracies within the government, but in reality most were totally inept and incompetent. Just as you'd expect from the government.

How much have you looked into Iran-Contra? This was the opposite of what you describe. It doesn't always take a massive number of people to execute a nefarious plan, and often jobs are compartmentalized so someone can have a mission yet be completely unaware of the bigger plan they are contributing to. For example the Manhattan Project. The shadow government produced an atomic bomb and even Congress had no idea. It's estimated that up to 100,000 people were involved.

MKULTRA is an example. A conspiracy yes, but totally retarded on the governments part. An idiotic waste of money. I've never found any evidence that anything of any real worth came out of the project.

Well then you would know that almost all the official records were destroyed. Even from what little we know, this one is extremely shocking and a real eye-opener as to what the government is willing to do - and for no apparent reason according to yourself. Also it is not crazy to suggest that these types of experiments would continue just under a different name. It is crazy to definitively state "they would definitely not be doing this anymore". Based on what? We know for a fact they were already doing it.

What's especially stupid about conspiracy theorists is that they BOTH think that the government is so crazy over the top competent as to come up with and sucessfully pull off this kind of shit, but also totally unsucessful at actually keeping any of it secret to the point that conspiracy theorists don't work it all out

The honest researchers do not think that they've worked it all out, they know how much information is still under wraps and are also aware of the disinfo. They are merely looking closer than others and focusing at least some of their efforts on things that the government tried or is trying to keep secret.

Also I am not referring to the types of people that jump on every single conspiracy theory and think that any youtube video with an occult title is true. Those people are idiots and the "conspiracy theorists" I assume you are referring to. So a conspiracy theorist is not a conspiracy analyst, because as you've agreed there are some conspiracies that are true and therefore worthy of serious analysis. i hope you can comprehend this huge difference.

Let alone inter dimensional beings (for fucks sake, it's never enough with conspiracy theorists, it can't just be aliens, it's gotta be other dimensions, and worse still they don't even know what the word dimension even means!)

It's actually inter-density but most people only know the term dimensional. A density being like a ceiling and a dimension being more like a horizontal wall.

Aliens exist but in parallel universes ? and we might actually see them someday (International Business Times)
https://www.ibtimes.co.in/aliens-exist-parallel-universes-we-might-actually-see-them-so meday-769332

Are we alone? Humans have been looking for an answer since forever. A group of scientists now believes that aliens do exist, but they are in a parallel universe or in another dimension. And, dark energy might be the common thread between these universes.

Two closely related research papers were published recently by scientists from Durham University. The papers questioned dark energy and the potential for the existence of alien life in other universes, reports ScienceExaminer. Prevailing theories say that there is a certain amount of dark energy in the universe and that amount is ideal for the existence of life. There is just about enough dark energy to allow the formation of planets and suns as well as planets like Earth where life is possible.

Lately I've witnessed an explosion of serious alien-related articles in the media. If scientists are taking an issue seriously, and now we know the government is spending (at least) millions on it too, does that still make it a conspiracy theory?

And there are no references to ET in ancient scriptures. And yes, I am aware of the stupid shit you're likely talking about.

Studying historical records isn't stupid shit. Thinking that you know what it all means is quite daft though.

Humans have been recording bullshit for a LONG time......That or it's all bullshit. Is that true too? It can't ALL be true, it's self contradictory. But people are dumb and tend to think old civilizations had access to some amazing secret knowledge and everything written back then was litterally true. Then others believe it was aliens. Not sure which is stupider.

Well they did cut and then move stones that were up to 3,000 tons. One stone, think about how much that actually is. Please don't tell me that it was done with ropes, pulleys and a million slaves. Think about what we would need today to be able to do this. And the most important question remains unanswered - why? We have no clear idea why they would go to the trouble just guesses but the stone megaliths all around the world are evidence of a seemingly advanced civilization. Advanced enough to leave us puzzled and we are super smart.

And the science IS settled by the way

If you're referring to climate change then no that isn't true. I've personally spoken to a scientist that disagrees.

Loose change, ancient aliens bs, and lesser known shit about the amazing life changing powers of the torus.

I wouldn't call those videos proof of anything. But I'm going to assume that you assume that I treat those videos as gospel and believe 100% of their claims unquestioned.
I agree with you if you're just going to rant then maybe you shouldn't comment on 'conspiracy theories' as a whole. But if you can separate your emotion from an argument and stick to discussing the facts of one theory then you may prove that you are as serious as you've claimed, and you may even learn something.

I don't want to de-rail the thread too much but what is your opinion on 9/11? You said you've looked into it. If you say something like - Bin Laden definitely masterminded 19 Saudis to bring down 3 skyscrapers with 2 planes in NYC - then I guess this debate is over. We can agree that both of us are dumb.

 

[cduggles]

JGrimez, can you expand on your thoughts on 9/11? I have read and seen a few things that I wouldn't call "conspiracy theories" but moreso information that wasn't really given equal time in the "mainstream" media?

(OP was cool with going off topic.)

 

[JGrimez]

Thanks, there's a few things surrounding 9/11 worth looking into:

Flight audio. Plane transponders turned off and the military's delayed response and lack of interception
Norman Mineta's testimony under oath from when he was sitting next to Cheney at the Pentagon
Suspicious lack of video footage of Pentagon strike
Reports of secondary explosions in the WTC lobbies from police, FD
Building 7 imploding like a controlled demolition yet not being hit by a plane
9/11 Commission only created after victim uproar and doesn't mention WTC#7
Larry Silverstein's insurance on WTC complex
The 2 vans of Israelis that were detained - one group celebrating the attacks, another group allegedly with explosives in van. Quietly released.
Bush family close ties to Bin Laden family
Osama Bin Laden denying involvement in interview and reported dead in Pakistani media Dec, 2001
PNAC's 2000 report/prediction in Rebuilding America's Defenses
Nobody in US government held accountable
Link of 9/11 attacks to starting wars in Afghanistan and then Iraq
Lack of public evidence during capture of Osama

Also just recently learned of this:
Odigo Says Workers Were Warned of Attack
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5410231

 

[JessFR]

OK so thanks for the reply but you really need to stop calling people dumb. If I'm being completely honest I find what you are saying "dumb" but there's no need for me to repeatedly tell you that. It doesn't help and it doesn't change or sway anyone's mind. It's also extremely condescending because from my point of view you've either not taken a serious and discerning look at these things, or you are simply not adept enough to separate the legitimate leads from the disinformation.

I said earlier today about how you go about debating things with people if you wanna try and change their mind. There's no point in doing it though unless of course you ARE trying to change someones mind. And I'm not, cause I can't. Like, If I can take some time to try and change someones mind about something and help a little, that's all great. But conspiracy theorists have often spent years brainwashing themselves. To make any serious impact at all, we would have to sit down, and probably spend weeks, maybe longer, going over every single last shred of evidence, and that's all for the slim chance that it might make a difference. All for one person. And even then that will only work if the other person is actually willing to invest that kind of time in hearing that they may be wrong. And most people won't. Which honestly I think is kinda bullshit given how much time I've been subjected to this shit.

Yeah, technically you're right, in the sense that in terms of overall intelligence, conspiracy theorists aren't really any stupider than anyone else. But the shit they believe IS stupid. Thing is, even an average person, or even a slightly above average person, with the right psychological makeup, can so easily brainwash themselves.

The nature of things like youtube and the internet, is that it causes the most effective brainwashing materials to be the most likely to be viewed and shared. It's not even deliberate. Sometimes it IS deliberate, and in those cases it's to drive book sales and ad revenue, but a lot of the time it's just natural selection at work.

OK so now we're getting some clearer definitions but you're still not addressing the important issue. One specific theory can have a whole bunch of nonsense attached to it but still some information that is legitimate. That is how disinfo works by muddying the waters, the goal being to overwhelm someone like yourself with all the nonsense that they completely discard the entire theory (throwing the baby out with the bathwater)

Except a lot of people DON'T do that. First of all, almost all the shit I would consider totally debunked about any given conspiracy theory, is shit that I've found almost all the adherents believe and share. It's not from niche sources that most of the conspiracy theorists reject. Because most conspiracy theorists believe EVERYTHING. They don't reject almost anything. And this is actually how a lot of this works. I've said a couple times about how there are all these tricks that can brainwash people. This is one of them. Information overload. You provide so many shitty shreds of evidence, so many MANY dubious pieces of information, that people see it all and think to themselves "well if even 10% of that is true, there must be something real here!". But 10% of it ISN'T true. Usually NONE of it is true. By not true, I mean either outright false, or the implication is false.

How much have you looked into Iran-Contra? This was the opposite of what you describe. It doesn't always take a massive number of people to execute a nefarious plan, and often jobs are compartmentalized so someone can have a mission yet be completely unaware of the bigger plan they are contributing to. For example the Manhattan Project. The shadow government produced an atomic bomb and even Congress had no idea. It's estimated that up to 100,000 people were involved.

There's a BIG difference between real conspiracies, there the objective is largely simple, build a new a better bomb, destabilize a government, etc, and what conspiracy theorists come up with. The existence of real conspiracies that often barely resemble the elaborate insanity of conspiracy theorists doesn't add any evidence to what conspiracy theorists come up with. Believing the government wants a better bomb or to fund its interests overseas and evades oversight, is NOT the same as thinking every bad thing that happens in the US is a false flag operation. And not just a false flag but an insanely convoluted one.

It's never enough with conspiracy theorists. It can't JUST be that the government let 9/11 happen. They had to have made it happen, and done it in this absurdly oversophisticated way with smuggling thermite and explosives into a packed building then diverting planes then firing a missle into the pentagon. It can't JUST be aliens, it has to be interdimentional energy beings that defy physics outright. And it's because it's all one and the time, it's all because of the same flawed reasoning. Conspiracy theorists come up with ideas, then the best presentation of those ideas cause others to believe them, so in the end, EVERYTHING is believed. Because they want to believe them. They think they're being critical but they're not.

It's not just about being intelligent, even fairly intelligent people can be brainwashed by this shit. For the most part, proper science and reasoning skills are something you learn how to do and why you do it that way. And there's a lot to learn about how you can manipulate people psychologically susceptable people. Brainwashing exists, but it doesn't look like MKULTRA or what conspiracy theorists imagine. It's all just exploting flaws in peoples reasoning skills. There's an entire industry devoted to it called advertising.

Well then you would know that almost all the official records were destroyed. Even from what little we know, this one is extremely shocking and a real eye-opener as to what the government is willing to do - and for no apparent reason according to yourself. Also it is not crazy to suggest that these types of experiments would continue just under a different name. It is crazy to definitively state "they would definitely not be doing this anymore". Based on what? We know for a fact they were already doing it.

I didn't say they weren't doing it anymore. They might be. I tend to doubt it because of the damage it could do if it were uncovered at a time when public confidence is so low. But it's possible. But it was a stupid project to start with. If it does still exist, most likely it's evolved into a modern version where it uses information to cause people to brainwash themselves, much like conspiracy theorists do, or how advertising works. Using drugs to mind control people is all fiction, it doesn't work. It's worth remembering who "the government" is. With MKUltra we're largely talking about shit in the intelligence community, which can be pretty seperate from the executive, which can be pretty seperate from congress. It's a bloated mess of incompetence and waste. But conspiracy theorists imagine it's BOTH an incompetent mess and also insanely competetent. And usually the way they imagine government works doesn't bare much resemblence to the reality. The reality being that the shit the government works in, all the dirty classified secrets, are all mostly very boring compared to what the theorists imagine. We know this because of how bad a job they do keeping it secret.

It's not like it's a surprise, the government wants power, it wants to guard its interests overseas, and it's a bloated mess run by humans so it's usually retarded and inept. The other thing is that conspiracy theorists generally know almost nothing about the fields they're talking about to know why what they suggest is wrong. Like 9/11 with how controlled demolition works, ET's with physics, or what a plane hitting a building is supposed to look like.

The honest researchers do not think that they've worked it all out, they know how much information is still under wraps and are also aware of the disinfo. They are merely looking closer than others and focusing at least some of their efforts on things that the government tried or is trying to keep secret.

Also I am not referring to the types of people that jump on every single conspiracy theory and think that any youtube video with an occult title is true. Those people are idiots and the "conspiracy theorists" I assume you are referring to. So a conspiracy theorist is not a conspiracy analyst, because as you've agreed there are some conspiracies that are true and therefore worthy of serious analysis. i hope you can comprehend this huge difference.

This strikes me as similar to people who research paranormal phenomenon. It's something that, while almost always fruitless, could be done in a serious and scientific way. But I've never met anyone, EVER, not even ONCE, with conspiracies or the paranormal, who actually seemed to be doing that. Without exception they were all already believers in a whole range of crazy ideas ALL of which had already been as disproven as disproven gets. I've never met anyone, not even online, I've never met a single person, in any capacity, IN MY LIFE. Who ONLY believed one or two conspiracy theories. If they believed one, they believed at almost all the others too to some extent. The only exceptions being the most insanely extreme theories even among the theorisies, like that public figures are lizard aliens. The conspiracy theorists conspiracy theory.

You "could" do it scientifically, but I've never met anyone who has. And it requires first learning a lot of other stuff about science and scientific method and biases and logical fallacies, and if that shit interested you to start with, chances are you'd just keep learning about that and forget about the fruitless and boring search for either conspiracies or the paranormal. Because once you start doing science with those they become a lot less interesting. And that novelty, and sense of having secret knowledge, is the need the theorists have filled by this stuff.

It's actually inter-density but most people only know the term dimensional. A density being like a ceiling and a dimension being more like a horizontal wall.

Aliens exist but in parallel universes ? and we might actually see them someday (International Business Times)
https://www.ibtimes.co.in/aliens-exist-parallel-universes-we-might-actually-see-them-someday-769332

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URL is showing a page not found error. So anyway, different realities, if that IS what's being talked about instead of something stupid. Yeah they probably exist, and there are probably what you'd call aliens there. But UFO hunters don't stop there, they don't stop with the science. They take that and make it into science fiction, bad science fiction. None of it means aliens are HERE in a meaningful way though. There's no evidence of that that stands up to science.

EDIT: When I was editing out some of the formatting problems I was able to fix the URL so it works, media sensationalism as usual. I mean yeah, underneith the sensationalist BS and bad terminology, there's something real. Other realities are totally plausible, like I said, but none of that, and nothing said in the article, suggests alien intervention in human society at any time.

Lately I've witnessed an explosion of serious alien-related articles in the media. If scientists are taking an issue seriously, and now we know the government is spending (at least) millions on it too, does that still make it a conspiracy theory?


Studying historical records isn't stupid shit. Thinking that you know what it all means is quite daft though.

Media is not science. The media takes science and sensationalizes it. Most of what you've said there is too vague to say much, and I'm not gonna assume anything. What IS true is that conspiracy theory shit and UFO and paranormal shit is experiencing an explosion in interested in the PUBLIC. So of course the media is getting on board.

It IS worth searching for alien signals, and we do that. The idea that aliens exist is perfectly rational. Saying they DON'T exist is what's irrational. But the UFO types like the conspiracy theorists take it all and turn it into bullshit. They turn a small idea, and explode it into an insane one built out of nothing.

Well they did cut and then move stones that were up to 3,000 tons. One stone, think about how much that actually is. Please don't tell me that it was done with ropes, pulleys and a million slaves. Think about what we would need today to be able to do this. And the most important question remains unanswered - why? We have no clear idea why they would go to the trouble just guesses but the stone megaliths all around the world are evidence of a seemingly advanced civilization. Advanced enough to leave us puzzled and we are super smart.

No, they aren't. We've worked out how it was done, people have even done it to show that it could be done. It's all this logical fallacy that how it look NOW must be how it always looked and nothing else was used to construct it. It makes all these assumtions about what societies back then were like that don't hold up in fact. Humans have come up with all sorts of ingenious building tricks, many are very old.

But just hypothetically, even if we didn't know how it were done, that still wouldn't mean aliens. That would mean we don't know. It wouldn't be evidence of anything. This is what I call the "gray of the gaps" phenomenon. Everything that is unexplained is aliens. I think it was dawkins who came up with the phrase "god of the gaps" to describe how religious types used any gap in the fossil record as evidence of god. I've come up with my own spins on that. I have the gray of the gaps, where anything unexplained is aliens. And the ghost of the gaps, anything unexplained is paranormal. But it's not. If it's unexplained it's unexplained.

If you're referring to climate change then no that isn't true. I've personally spoken to a scientist that disagrees.

I couldn't give a shit. "A scientist" could mean anything. It's arguing by proxy authority. It means nothing. It's settled.A few individuals of dubious understanding doesn't mean anything. Using this kind of reason to doubt, means you can't act on ANYTHING in science because NOTHING is certain if you let that tiny level of doubt be reason to not act.

Besides, even if it wasn't settled, basic risk analysis would favor action anyway, so it hardly matters.

I wouldn't call those videos proof of anything. But I'm going to assume that you assume that I treat those videos as gospel and believe 100% of their claims unquestioned.
I agree with you if you're just going to rant then maybe you shouldn't comment on 'conspiracy theories' as a whole. But if you can separate your emotion from an argument and stick to discussing the facts of one theory then you may prove that you are as serious as you've claimed, and you may even learn something.

I don't want to de-rail the thread too much but what is your opinion on 9/11? You said you've looked into it. If you say something like - Bin Laden definitely masterminded 19 Saudis to bring down 3 skyscrapers with 2 planes in NYC - then I guess this debate is over. We can agree that both of us are dumb.

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Finally at the end! By the way, if you make another post like this, I can't promise how quickly I'll be able to reply. You're welcome to do so and I'll reply to it when I can, but almost all my posts are done on my phone, but these last 2 on this thread have been too complex to do that way so I had to get my computer up and running. It's no problem, it doesn't take long, it just means I can't always respond as quickly as I could when using my phone.

And yes, I think both of us are going to think the others beliefs are dumb. 9/11 is probably the conspiracy I've looked into more than anyone else. Since it's one of the most significant, popular, and important were it true. And yes, I think that al-qaeda did it, and I think it happened the way it was shown. It's not like this was even the first time. They'd tried to knock down the buildings once before but they screwed it up. It wasn't just bin laden though, not even mostly. He had help from people with enough engineering understanding to see it was possible. They fucked it up the first time around, but it worked when they tried again.

You said it yourself, a small group can conspire to do a lot of damage. But no, that's clearly so unbelievable. There's no way they could have come up with something as impressive as using box cutters to hijack planes, something that has a LONG history in terrorism, and smash them into things. That's clearly way too complicated. Much more likely they somehow snuck piles of explosives into the towers then hit the pentagon with a cruise missle. 8)

Not wanting to assume what you believe, but just... to throw this out there. You don't have to melt steel to weaken the supports of a building and cause it to collapse. As I said, I've gone into a lot of conspiracy theory's. And 9/11 is the one I've spent more time on than any other.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I already posted this on Bluelight elsewhere but this is a pretty appropriate thread. It relates to a new promising technique for sequestering CO2 by injecting it in volcanic Basalt where minerals in the Basalt literally turn CO2 into stone. The process looks to be cost prohibitive at this stage but could be potentially scaled up and become cost effective in the future. At some point if the consequence of CO2 in the atmosphere become high enough we may have no choice but to intervene on behalf of the environment and our own survival and this looks like a potentially promising avenue

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-are-again-turning-co2-into-solid-rock-to-fight-climate-change