What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Glubrahnum]

@Glubra- You keep blowing my mind lol.

It's not me. It's just a good machine.

So the isomer theory guys may have been right if there's more mdma tartrate out there then we realize?

It is hard to judge how much of it is out there based on one sample.

It's hard to know if they used plain ol MDP2P or the glycidate even with it showing just MDP2P because it could be byproduct from a one step synth from the glycidate for all we know..

I really looked for peaks of any Glycidate and its decomposition products and I just did not see any.
IMO it is likely they used a synth similar to this one.

This isomer variation is the nail in the coffin too for those who ever argue otherwise.

Note that the 12% skew from the racemic ratio might not be enough to have a perceptible effect.

 

[Glubrahnum]

The Tartarate Salt will be heavy, and will require a higher dose than, say, the HCL.

Yes, that is why I recommended they increase their dose by 49% relative to the hydrochloride salt.

So my questions is why would they even make this salt? Its not like they couldn't get a hold of HCL to make the correct salt.

Maybe the motivation was economical because they thought that the extra weight of the tartrate salt will increase their profits. Thinking this way, they should have gone for the citrate.
They might not have been aware, that non-racemic salting means some loss of one MDMA enantiomer.

Also, Arent some salts of TA complexed with multiple TAs ?
d-Tartaric Acid is the cheapest to get as a sinlge enantiomer, and Racemic is farily common.

From what I've seen, a chiral TA is easier to get in Europe than the racemic one. I don't know about Canada.
One could always racemize it by simple heating, though ...but to do anything about it, one has to be aware of this issue first.

62 R and 48 S.
d-MDMA which I believe is S-MDMA, which is the best MDMA.

From what I read, the S enantiomer is the more potent one, dosage-wise, but it does not produce the "magic" alone without the R enantiomer.
I don't know, what enantiomer ratio produces the best "magic" - maybe 50/50 or maybe some other one.
Does anyone know ?

Seems like if they were using Tartaric Acid as a way to try and get the more active MDMA enantiomer (which is the only reason I can think of to do this) They got it backwards!

Well, there are also economic reasons ...like greed to maximize their profits, etc...
Chemically, this did not have to be deliberate move on their part. They could have just dumped in any ol' tartaric acid, they could get a hold of, without caring about its chirality. ...which would be dumb, but there is a lot of "dumb" out there.

This means that they did pretty much everything right in the synthesis, and fucked the salting and precipitation..

Yes, ...but maybe, just maybe, we are dealing here with an "artist" who wanted to give "more chances" to the "weaker" R enantiomer, because he knows something I don't.

 

[Goodwalt]

We need an experience report from 150 mg of this non racemic mdma tartrate, I think.

 

[Biscuit]

This isomer variation is the nail in the coffin too for those who ever argue otherwise. That's got me so excited. To be honest I feel there's been isomer variation even long before this but hard to know for sure. This is awesome stuff and I hope people like Biscuit get in here and see this.

I am seeing I am seeing, I am not surprised but grateful to all of those pushing closer and closer to an answer.

The tartrate situation is interesting and if that is introduced into the equation as well, is it any wonder that truly racemic mdma is no longer the norm.

I have often wondered whether sites like ecstasydata are accurate in reporting on the type of mdma salt in the substance. They report the HCL salt almost without question, but if the mdma was there as a tartrate, then the amount of the salt is going to be far greater than normal.

Most forensic laboratories, certainly those in Australia, simply report the quantity of mdma molecule present and the salt part is disregarded (which is why depending on the lab, the max purity of mdma being 87% or whatever it is is actually true). It would be interesting to know for those labs reporting the salt, whether they always report this accurately.

I still think glycidate and dodgy/cost cutting reductive amination techniques will produce a different type of mdma from a racemic one with or without the tartrate. Maybe the tartrate is getting used because what is produced is so far skewed in R direction, without it, the product will be bunkem.

There is no doubt in my mind that mdma produced from safrole to pmk and then aminated with sodium borohydride will produce the best and most consistent product of the kind that I can remember at least.

 

[Glubrahnum]

We need an experience report from 150 mg of this non racemic mdma tartrate, I think.

You'll need to wait for the weekend for that.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I have often wondered whether sites like ecstasydata are accurate in reporting on the type of mdma salt in the substance. They report the HCL salt almost without question,

If this is true and criminals have figured out, that testing centers report the hydrochloride without a question, then they would be stupid not to use the heavier salts, because chemicals like the Tartaric Acid and Citric Acid are dirt cheap compared to MDMA precursors and reagents.

- using racemic Tartaric Acid would give them 49% more profit, and
- using the Citric Acid would give them 68% more profit.

...comparing to the hydrogen chloride and assuming, that the price of 1g of any MDMA salt is the same.

 

[G_Chem]

@Glubra- The synthesis you outlined is the same that I theorize was/is used for indigo's lackluster product. From my research it seems MDP2Pol would also be an impurity found from that synth, whether it was cleaned out in some way or another route was used we aren't sure..

My guess is this product will also be lackluster but I could be wrong. I'm thinking it will be ok but not great, kind of the middle ground of the worst mongy crap out there.

Glubra I know you say it's just the machines but it takes a dedicated soul to have access and use em..


Also this is far from the first time the tartrate salt has been used, it's the second most common salt and has been found in the past. There's also rumors MDA tartrate is somehow more potent, but not so sure on that..

And regarding the tartrate being the source for the skewed isomer ratio, I think I may agree with Biscuit that it could be something else causing it. (Glycidate maybe? What if it was a highly efficient conversion to MDP2P?) Tartaric acid is typically always labeled wether it's racemic or single isomer, even when bought at the lowest level (i.e. wine making shops, etc). Chemists can be both lazy and stupid but that'd be next level stupidity in my book to not be aware of the exact isomer of tartaric acid is being used. Although I've been surprised before..

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

OK, here is the preliminary report:
Three males aged 36, 38, 42, with body weight between 75kg, 85kg and 92kg, ingested 130mg, 140mg and 200mg, respectively, of the R62/S38 3,4-MDMA tartrate today on an empty stomach in a capsule form, followed by two bottles of Gatorade each.
The first two were virgin users with no history of MDxx nor stimulant nor antidepressant use. The third and the oldest one has used MDMA approximately 30 times in his life and had his last dose on New Year's Eve.

Within 20-30min the onset became apparent, with visible full Mydriasis in all subjects. One virgin user had what looked like a panic attack with rapid breathing and self-reported "pins and needles" in his extremities and chills. This state has lasted 15min while he had to sit down.
Afterwards, while waiting for a taxi to go to a night club, I noticed obvious Trismus in all subjects. A smartwatch showed pulse rates from 100-130bpm. Their hands felt warm to my touch but not hot. There was no visible perspiration ...and maybe a little fidgeting.

I was a witness but not a participant. I did not go with them to the venue and I'm waiting for them to come back to get the full relation of their experiences. They went equipped with 8 bottles of Gatorade and a well known night club with good air conditioning was picked for this occasion.

 

[G_Chem]

Interesting...

I've always kinda thought isomers couldn't play that much of a role, at least to the point we see with the Dutch product. If you look at reports of people who've tried the two separate isomers (rare I might add..) it seems both isomers provide a decent effect. Although I guess if the ratio was skewed even more to the R it could be a different story..

My doubts on this batch came purely from the fact it was made from piperonal but I may have been wrong. Maybe the purity was high enough where it didn't really matter the starting precursor.

Im curious to see the duration of their experiences, my guess is they will be on the longer end of spectrum.

So far so good on this experience report though. To be fair in regards to that synth route, it was quite popular and in use long before the drought of late 2000's. While an impure batch from this route could be lackluster, with high enough purity it's probably hard to tell a difference.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Some seriously exciting developments here!

Interesting that these users had mydriasis after 20 to 30 minutes and one dose. That seems promising. I ran across a pic of me from a year or so ago on the sleepy product I have had access to. Photo was taken after 3 capsules of 100 mg had been consumed, and I had limited mydriasis in the photo.

Can't wait for the full report. I am especially interested to know what kind of empathy is reported.

 

[G_Chem]

I'm definitely on the edge of my seat right now. We are looking at the first report of a skewed ratio non-racemic mdma being consumed and reported on (that we are aware of that is). We've only seen racemic and separated isomers, although I do remember reading somewhere (shulgin?) that a ratio of 70/30 S/R is preferred by most. The tartrate likely will effect things too but probably to a lesser degree. How, I don't know..

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Just reading that user report from Erowid...

This report reinforces many of the things we have been talking about and recalling. The huge eyes (that everyone notices); the anxious, "too much" come-up; and of course, the limitless and un-ignorable love.

@Beanhead Things went downhill for my supply in 2005 too. I am also in the southern USA. Also, I don't see us as "destroyers" of nostalgia, but preservers of it.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Just a quick update:
Got a text message that guys stayed in the club till 5am and danced most of the time and they are happy and feel well.

P.S.
I put them in the taxi around 10pm

 

[Tranced]

Could smell be a possible identifier?

I noticed quite a few posts throughout this thread, as well as others on Reddit, that mention the strong aniseed aroma associated with good quality MDMA.

Definitely not. IIRC it's not the MDMA that smells of aniceed, but other chemicals from the synth. Also, it'easy to thwart this test by adding aniseed or whatever.

 

[G_Chem]

@Glubra- Hell ya man thank you!

I think the initial assessment that the R-isomer is to blame is false after this experiment.

My theory is that isomer variation is something we've been dealing with, potentially since the beginning of mdma use. Way back I made quite argument for there being variation of MDA, and while the difference between the isomers of mdma is less than that of MDA, it's still noticeable enough to someone skilled in differentiating between minor molecular changes.

Duration sounds exactly like I expected. I believe both isomers are pleasurable just different. For instance right now I have two batches that I feel one is S heavy and one is R heavy. Completely theorized remember..

The supposed S heavy batch is a bit more potent, with 80-100mg producing strong outwardly social effects and seemed highly desired by those that tried it. Only thing is it lasts max 3-4hrs, come up in 30min.

The supposed R heavy batch is less potent requiring 110-130mg dosage with a much longer overall comeup which started at 45min and doesn't seem to let up until hour and 30min in. The intensity of the effects especially the socialization isn't as intense but still plenty of empathy and love. The duration was much longer though, it felt as if it just slowly faded off. I was still feeling it at 5am after dosing around 7-8pm the night before.

Some may say it could be possibly MDA contamination but I know MDA very well and that wasn't it. Both batches consistently produce the effects I describe above, both were highly regarded but a few said they preferred the intensity (even with shorter duration) of what I presume to be the S heavy stuff. I preferred the longer lasting stuff though personally, I love rolls that last forever like that.

If I were to make a guess, what I outlined above is the differences we'll see with isomer heavy batches... Both good just different. I feel if the ratio were too skewed however it'd become undesirable.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

Still rolling right now after a good day with the family out in nature. I haven't rolled since NYE (as usual..) and still feeling the love so figured I'd come gush on here for a minute..

It makes me so happy to finally have found a group of people who not only believe in the power of an mdma batch from one to the next, but actually strive to find the answers as to why. I have a feeling this thread will be highly quoted and referenced in the future. So excited to be a part of this..

Glubra much respect to you brother, we would not be any closer to our answers if it wasn't for you man.. If there was an award for underground researcher of the year, it'd be all you..

Much love to the rest of ya'll as well who've done their part to keep the topic alive. Too many to name, but love ya guys for not letting the good name of mdma get tarnished.

End gush session.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

The feeling is mutual.

 

[scatterday]

A dual solvent recrystalization/single solvent plus some piracetam is what I had to do to experience something identical to the old school MDMA feelings we all love and cherish. It was an enlightening and therapeutic experience. Onset for my best MDMA experiences have always been 2 hours for some reason.

Fast metabolism, 60kg male 26 years old, 11 Years of experience with MDMA/ecstasy, Always reagent test my products before consumption.

The crystals I ended up with after the purification were like clear shards of ice from a freezer or sharp bits of broken glass perhaps. I'd say by-products and contaminants/probable adulterants may be the cause of the physiological and psychological feelings not being the same as they used to be.

It may be worth others investigating into dual solvent recrystalizations and single solvent washes to test this theory because to me I knew what I felt was identical to how I felt years ago. Providing you have a grasp on basic chemistry for personal consumption I think it's fine.

To break things down this is what I did. Although I highly encourage looking up a proper guide on purifying your MDMA. I feel as though have missed some crucial details and it would be dangerous to follow my guide but it was a rough explanation.

-Bake epsom salts in the oven for a certain duration and collect the anhydrous magnesium sulphate (cannot recall the temperature nor duration as it was too long ago, All I do remember is the temperature was hot and it was baked for a long duration). Here is a youtube guide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhE6CM6Qbws

-Add the product you're left with "desiccant" to some acetone to ensure all H20 has been removed from the acetone.

-After a day or two filter out the acetone with non bleached coffee filters or pipettes so ensure no desiccant is filtered through.

-Pour acetone over your MDMA to wash away any impurities, I performed this multiple times and ended up with a powdered MDMA which was white in color.

-Now to recrystallise the MDMA it needs to be dried and added to a beaker with anhydrous isopropyl alcohol (Can be purchased from a pc store/IT store)

-Break off the end of a matchstick and add it to your MDMA powder and isopropyl alcohol mixture to prevent the liquid from superheating, (proceed to heat up this mixture)

-Heat until all MDMA powder is fully dissolved then slowly start reducing the temperature of your hot plate/burner/heating device.

-Cool down slowly for larger crystals to form and ensure all isopropyl alcohol has been evaporated and cleaned prior to consumption or cool down quickly for smaller crystals. (I slowly reduced the temperature and after it was taken off the hot plate on the stove I set it on my heater to form larger and clearer crystals.

Edit after reading the MDMA report on erowid I can confirm the MDMA after the duel solvent recrystalization was nearly identical although his ability to describe the experience would be far beyond my capability of putting that into a report so thoroughly.

I'd have to make an errowid report next time I decide to wash my product. Last consumption was a month or two ago. Would like to give it at least another few months before another experience and put together a comprehensive report of the night/experience.

 

[indigoaura]

Scatterday, I am intrigued by your proposition. However, I have 0 chemistry experience. I would have to find a more thorough step by step guide (ideally with pictures). What are the risks of attempting something like this and botching it?

 

[indigoaura]

There is some interesting info scattered throughout this article about the MAPS process:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-to-legally-buy-a-kilo-of-pure-mdma