Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

[JessFR]

While that's exactly what you'd expect the sitting president to say, the fact trump managed to get through it without saying something horribly offensive is still something that impressed me.

Shows just how low my mental bar is for him if all he has to do is recite the most basic empty platitudes without somehow turning it into a mockery and I find that worthy of praise.

 

[alasdairm]

While that's exactly what you'd expect the sitting president to say, the fact trump managed to get through it without saying something horribly offensive is still something that impressed me.

Shows just how low my mental bar is for him if all he has to do is recite the most basic empty platitudes without somehow turning it into a mockery and I find that worthy of praise.

the height of the bar is absolutely tragic.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

I miss George Bush. He may have been an idiot, but I've always been of the view that deep down he was a decent enough guy. Just not that smart.

Which is still far better than having an asshole like Trump.

I wouldn't say I've liked any of the presidents of my lifetime. But I've never hated any on a personal level until Trump.

Even Obama, Obama didn't actually do that much that I didn't like, but he always struck me as a fairly intelligent guy so it pissed me off more when he did shit I didn't like. With say, bush, I could call it stupidity or nativity or manipulation. I never got that sense from Obama so I held him more responsible. But even Obama I find myself missing greatly these days...

Its hard to believe how bad it's gotten. I don't even care about Trump getting impeached or not. Just, I just really hope he doesn't make it to a second term. Even if it's not a hilariously humiliating impeachment, just so long as he doesn't make it to a second term, that'd make me happy.

Sorry for getting so off topic, it's just sometimes a little hard to believe that I'm living in a world where Donald Trump is the president of the United States. Commander of the armed forces of the most powerful military on the planet. Knowing that it's this guy's job to protect and defend the constitution. And he behaves like a child crying on Twitter throwing tantrums every time someone makes fun of him.

Say what you will about Obamas policies, and I have plenty to say, but at least he always struck me as presidential. Bush did too in a different kind of way. Trump doesn't.

I know I have my share of right leaning beliefs and conservative stances. Being pro life and fairly sympathetic to gun rights, though not so much as to label myself pro gun. Plus my overall high regard for capitalism and even higher regard for the constitution. But I just can't see how anyone could support Trump. For the left the reasons are too obvious to be worth noting. But for the right, the right is usually supposed to be the side that values patriotism. How can you consider yourself patriotic or pro American and be pro trump? The guys actions and attitudes and statements show that the only Supreme law of the land in trumps mind is his word. He supports people who run death squads. Who are as incompatible with the constitution and the American ideals as you get.

Sorry I'm still off topic. I just don't get how anyone can be so lost as to support him as president. Especially president of a country they supposedly love. And lost is the best word I can think of to describe it. The only thing that makes sense to me to explain it is that such people are so taken in and blinded by their assumptions and general life outlook that they've lost the ability to see how what they're saying goes against everything they otherwise value.

Anyway, back on topic...

Something I find depressing is that, no matter who we have in office, little will be done about gun control. Obama wanted to do something and we all saw how limited presidential power over legislation really is (and thank God what with whom we have now).

And even the shit he did put in by questionable use of executive orders was fairly mild and ineffectual. I'd hardly call it a loss to see it undone. But nothings gonna be done at all so long as Trump is in office. No matter his own views, his biggest supporters are all fiercely pro-gun.

It's funny, I've mentioned before how some of my childhood growing up was around diehard pro-gun advocates and how I've heard all the arguments and all their rhetoric a hundred times over. They always felt like outright gun prohibitions were right around the corner.

Ever since the assault weapon ban sunset, always talking about how another one will come in any day now and this time there won't be a sunset. Yet, for all their paranoia, gun rights are probably as strong as they've ever been in America.

You only need look at the stats. How many states have made concealed carry legal and feasibly accessible over the past several decades. It's as high as its ever been. The AWB sunset and has never been replaced. DC V Heller came out in the 2nd amendments favor after years of collectivist interpretation being the precedent.

They don't even realize just how much they've succeeded. Too busy imagining new threats. Expecting the political winds to change with every school shooting while Obama was in, yet virtually nothing happened.

It was a long time ago that I had any part in that world, so I wouldn't really know, but I'd expect they all voted Trump. They always vote republican. Because gun rights are pretty much the only issue they really care about. If a candidate is likely to be in favor of gun control, it doesn't matter if everything else they believe is ideal. They won't vote for them. Never.

Some might not have voted for trump, but none would have voted for Clinton. And given that Clinton would terrify them especially with the assault weapon ban originating with the previous Clinton administration, I doubt many would have risked throwing their vote away.

Even if they hated Trump they'd vote Trump.

Which I suppose is still a lot better than actually loving trump. I honestly feel a bit sorry for such people. Like I'm seeing someone lose who they are and deciding to live in a fantasy. Extreme political beliefs can be so dangerous. Not just for the world but for the believers identify. Formerly good people can completely lose what they once believed in by continually becoming more and more extreme. Until they've totally lost what they used to so strongly value. It makes me sad.

 

[spacejunk]

My point is that when people use stats that say something like "20 school shootings so far this year" I've found those stats are giving a deceptive impression. Suggesting that those school shootings are like these school shootings. It's dishonest, that's my problem with it.

Maybe so, but all i was doing by sharing a statistic i'd seen earlier, to respond to tathra's post.
An observation inspired by horror and - well, i wish i could still claim disbelief - but that doesnt seem like the right word to use anymore.

I know that in the past you've been very critical of the way people write and speak in the aftermath of these shootings, but i'm not trying to make any distorted comparisons.
Nor do i see what is "dishonest" about remarking about the number of school shootings in the US so far this year, and using a figure published in a newspaper to do so.


But i don't know what you mean by this - "Suggesting that those school shootings are like these school shootings".
Am i missing something obvious?
Aren't they alike enough to group together in an observation?
I mean, to some extent?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to talk about these thing, and to try to make sense of them.

I get it that "school shooting" means different things to different people, in different contexts.
But if you want to stick to honest lines of discussion, i'm not sure where your comments about Australia fit in with that.

I'm not bothered by your criticism of some of the over-regulation that Australian lawmakers indulge in; i don't like that it's law i have to wear a bicycle helmet when i ride down the road.
I don't like facing fines for things like that, and i find these sorts of reactive generalisations about australians a bit unnecessary;

Australia has mandatory helmet laws for everything. They have an attitude that says that's OK. I'm sure if I disagreed among Australians I'd be told I want to kill them too. So fuck em, let em die.

But please America, don't become like that while I'm gone.
And getting back on topic, while yes, this is a different situation and it is out of control and probably something really should be done about it. I understand that. All I'm saying is, not every social problem is bad enough to require action.

I'm not sure what auatralia has to do with this, but i think you are reactively responding to something that (as far as i can see) hasn't even been raised in conversation.
It doesn't seem relevant to me - or honest - to suggest that all government regulation is the same.

 

[zephyr]

Correct you are. Nothing will change.

There are lots of reasons people like to cite for while, most of which I think are nonsense. My belief is that it won't change for reasons that are quite obvious. A lot of Americans don't want gun control. And people generally suck at resolving or even comprehending these kinds of disagreements. So it's dead in the water.

But I'm sure soon enough someone else will come along and say it's all the fault of the gun lobby. Cause everything that ever happens is really because of lobbiests and money and capitalism blah blah and never just that other ordinary people might disagree with you.

I mean, seriously. If a bunch of people on bluelight who all already have a lot in common can't agree or rationally discuss this among many other controversial issues on CE&P, what chance does the rest of the world have?

Thats why it seems fruitless to even raise an eyebrow.

The argument for more guns rather than gun control has come up in past shooting rampages and srsly, as much as anyone who thinks that has every right to- its absolutely absurd to me.


Btw aussie generalisations are harmless and cute especially from Americans. Its not a hassle, water off a ducks back. :D

 

[nuttynutskin]

I'll just say that people need to start taking the "cues" from these shooters seriously and doing something about it before its too late. To me it seems that a lot of these shootings could have been prevented. From what I've read about the latest one in Florida, all sorts of things were ignored and mishandled.

 

[Tubbs]

We had a threat at the school I went to freshman year, they had feds in the school for 3 days checking everyone.

But we were 10 miles from an office

 

[zephyr]

I'll just say that people need to start taking the "cues" from these shooters seriously and doing something about it before its too late. To me it seems that a lot of these shootings could have been prevented. From what I've read about the latest one in Florida, all sorts of things were ignored and mishandled.

Rest in peace kids. Very tragic waste of life.

Thats all anyone else can say.

 

[BehindtheShadow]

Rest in peace kids. Very tragic waste of life.

Thats all anyone else can say.

Agreed we need to think of the victims and their families...

 

[nuttynutskin]

Isn't that sort of a given? Of course people should think about the victims, but perhaps some solutions also? Like if you hear the weird kid in the back of the class rambling about disturbing shit to not just brush it off as them just being the weird kid. Or likewise if someone's posting disturbing shit on social media like the Florida shooter was to not fucking ignore it? I'm sick seeing time after HUGE red flags being ignored until people are already dead.

 

[BehindtheShadow]

Isn't that sort of a given? Of course people should think about the victims, but perhaps some solutions also? Like if you hear the weird kid in the back of the class rambling about disturbing shit to not just brush it off as them just being the weird kid. Or likewise if someone's posting disturbing shit on social media like the Florida shooter was to not fucking ignore it? I'm sick seeing time after HUGE red flags being ignored until people are already dead.

Indeed but you missing my point
All we talk about is the killers and never about the families and their victims.
Those are the people we should remember

 

[aihfl]

I'll just say that people need to start taking the "cues" from these shooters seriously and doing something about it before its too late. To me it seems that a lot of these shootings could have been prevented. From what I've read about the latest one in Florida, all sorts of things were ignored and mishandled.

Nutty has a point here. I heard on the news that he introduced himself to others as a "school shooter," and posted on a social media account that he was going to be "a professional school shooter." That would be enough to have him Baker Acted (involuntary 72 hour psychiatric hold) and evaluated. What happens after that 72 hours is anyone's guess depending on his insurance situation.

On an ancillary note, the Florida Senate is voting to further ease background checks. You can read about it here.

 

[spacejunk]

i've been reading some of the comments people have bee making on social media to give me something of a broad overview of different opinions - and it seems like lots of people are claiming that the gunman was 'mad' or 'crazy'.
that is a pretty common claim when mass shootings happen; someone speculates that "it's not because they had guns, it's because they were crazy" and suddenly mental illness is to blame.

it seems like the rush to find a single, simplistic thing to blame also carries over into finding a solution.

there is no single thing at fault, as there is no single thing that will stop future school shootings.

i do wish, though, that the people blaming 'crazy' people for carrying out these mass shootings (in schools or wherever else) actually followed through with the rational conclusion in blaming mental illness, and demanded that the sort of healthcare that relates to mental health be more affordable to everyone.
i think that if a President (a real one, not trump) wanted to demonstrate their sincerity and concern without pledging support for tighter restrictions on guns, initiating a political conversation about mental health would be a good place to start.
it's a shame trump doesn't give a shit about the country, because it seems like strong moral leadership is sorely missing.

Btw aussie generalisations are harmless and cute especially from Americans. Its not a hassle, water off a ducks back.

I made that pretty clear in my post that i'm not bothered by criticisms of australia.
I'm critical of Australia all the time - and you've totally missed the point if you're choosing that part of my post to focus on.

@spacejunk: i now wish i had posted that PM i sent you so some of those points could be heard for the good and the bad. btw your right about anything and everything being open to speculation. the difference is, in the deceleration of independence there are the words "self evident". speculating everything is best left for discussions in rooms between two or a few people and not to be practiced by most/everyone in daily life.

sorry man, i think i owe you a PM or two. i could probably find that message if you want to post something from it?


nutty: good point, but i suspect it would cost a lot of money to investigate, then possibly section or otherwise detain people that are deemed to pose a threat.
do you think these people should be treated as mental health patients or criminals (f or - i guess - threatening murder)?

i can't imagine the criminal justice system dealing with these issues at all well - it would further alienate any "potential mass murderer" (or whatever label these suspected threats may be - and they wouldn't be kept from offending, if they've not yet committed a crime.

 

[Xorkoth]

I miss George Bush. He may have been an idiot, but I've always been of the view that deep down he was a decent enough guy. Just not that smart.

Pretty beside the point of this thread, but I feel the same way. I heard an interview with Bush like 2 years ago on the radio. It really endeared me to him actually, he was candidly talking about the faults of his presidency, and about painting, and about a nonprofit to provide aid to veterans. He was really articulate and sounded very sincere and really quite kind. I thought at the time and still think he was in over his head and was not any of the real power going on in that presidency.

 

[mal3volent]

Republicans only care about mental health when shit like this happens. Care is the wrong word, though. It's just another talking point used to pivot away from guns. Every other day all they think about is how to cut funds for mental health or act like we are freaks who don't deserve help in the first place.

 

[aihfl]

nutty: good point, but i suspect it would cost a lot of money to investigate, then possibly section or otherwise detain people that are deemed to pose a threat. do you think these people should be treated as mental health patients or criminals (f or - i guess - threatening murder)?

I live in Florida and I've been Baker Acted myself. The threshold for an involuntary psychiatric hold is very low and there are no expensive investigations needed to commit someone. If students had reported what he said to the administration and they contacted the authorities (maybe students did report it and the administration took no action) I am 99.99% sure he would have been Baker Acted. Perhaps if he had been evaluated psychiatrically, we wouldn't be dealing him now as a criminal. Like I said in my earlier post, the big question mark would have been what would have happened after his 72 hours were up.

 

[alasdairm]

here an idea.

let's take away the guns. when the pushback comes from the 2nd amendment freedom fighters, we can send them our thoughts and prayers. if that's enough to address the concerns of a parent whose kid has just been murdered at their school it should surely assuage these gun owners for loss of a gun, no?



alasdair

 

[mal3volent]

here an idea.

let's take away the guns. when the pushback comes from the 2nd amendment freedom fighters, we can send them our thoughts and prayers. if that's enough to address the concerns of a parent whose kid has just been murdered at their school it should surely assuage these gun owners for loss of a gun, no?



alasdair

While you're at it, can we go ahead and make weed legal nationwide and put all the revenue into art programs within our public schools? Maybe some of these sick, lost kids will find another outlet less violent than mass murder.

 

[JessFR]

Maybe we could cure cancer and bring about peace on earth while we're at it.

I live in Florida and I've been Baker Acted myself. The threshold for an involuntary psychiatric hold is very low and there are no expensive investigations needed to commit someone. If students had reported what he said to the administration and they contacted the authorities (maybe students did report it and the administration took no action) I am 99.99% sure he would have been Baker Acted. Perhaps if he had been evaluated psychiatrically, we wouldn't be dealing him now as a criminal. Like I said in my earlier post, the big question mark would have been what would have happened after his 72 hours were up.

People always seem to assume in these situations that if they'd shown up on the radar of health professionals it might not have happened. Personally I think that's overly optimistic.

And yes, the baker act threshold is a bit alarmingly low. You should hear my brother bitch about it. He was baker acted once too under somewhat dubious circumstances.

 

[aihfl]

^ Yes it might be optimistic. He could have had inadequate/no insurance and been turned out after 72 hours. And he might have been taken to a place like the county-run facility to which I was taken which did nothing except warehouse the mentally ill. Big question marks all around. An ex girlfriend told the cops I was suicidal. I was wasted but not suicidal but in the end the cop took her word over mine and I got to cool my heels in the nuthouse for three days with only the bare minimum of medications.