What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[G_Chem]

Interesting theko, old school ravers make it sound like every pill back then was mind blowing. You seem to say otherwise.

One more thing I think people need to remember here is that there is such thing as long term permanent tolerance that can and does occur from overuse. I'd say if someone thinks ALL product nowadays is crap then they are burnt out from a drug known to be neurotoxin, but for those that find certain batches to deliver yet others don't then obviously it's the product your finding.

When we say "all" product these days is bad or imply it, that's when we start the war again like what happened before with shunenja.

After re-reading many complaints all over this forum of the mongy MDMA I often see a use pattern as follows.. "I've been using every other weekend for over 10 years and for some reason this pill feels mongy with no energy, guess I'll try another batch next weekend." No person can use often and expect positive results from MDMA, this is a phenomenon that's been known since shulgin himself synthesized and tried it. He even states people only get about 10 good rolls in their life! I disagree but it reminds of the point that we only got so many good experiences we can have in our life off MDMA, maybe not 10 but there is certainly a limited amount based on the evidence and research. So don't use them all up your first year in the game

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

I'd say if someone thinks ALL product nowadays is crap then they are burnt out from a drug known to be neurotoxin, but for those that find certain batches to deliver yet others don't then obviously it's the product your finding.

That's true but the reports of Virgin users should be treated differently.

 

[G_Chem]

I agree 100%. I just felt that needed to be said as it seems often forgotten.

It's the virgin reports that alone make me a believer. Looking at your reports above (great work btw if I didn't say it already) I can firmly say MDMA should not act like that in most of the population. There's always outliers but 4 virgin users in one go really proves the point there's a difference. I could see how if this wasn't a common problem it could be blamed on something else rather easily though.

So I'm curious, for those that live in areas with this mongy shit is common, do you see the effects of this sedating product in events you go to? How has the scene changed because of this non-empathetic crap?

I ask because I've seen first hand both the positives and negatives of certain substances or batches of, in the dance scene. There was a time a local producer popped up synthing MDMA all the old timers said was the only pills that felt that good since the 90's, I saw how these little pills could actually make people put down the guns, grab a blunt and smoke together. Watched entire friend groups form overnight, and the craziest part is many still friends to this day.. I still see that but during this time everyone was on the same pills and there felt like this connection and community between us all. Ah the good ol' days.. Or maybe now I'm just jaded :/

Also Glubra, just out of my own curiosity what did the mdma crystals look like? Got a pic or one closely resembling it?

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

Also Glubra, just out of my own curiosity what did the MDMA crystals look like? Got a pic or one closely resembling it?

Like brown sugar. The biggest crystals were 1.5mm^3. Photo is possible.
I have to remind everyone that the immunoassay field test kit was unable to distinguish between MDMA, MDA and MDEA. But this test is much better than the reagent tests, anyway and all these substances would cause Mydriasis at 100mg and above but this "brown sugar" didn't.

 

[Tec]

Guys,

Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.

By "VIRGIN", I mean people that have never used MDMA before in their life nor any amphetamines nor any anti-depressants.
The crystalline powder was determined to contain MDxx by an immunoassay testkit, after 10^-6 mass dilution in distilled water.
The immunoassay testkit is highly specific to MDMA, MDA and MDEA but it does not allow the differentiation between these 3 compounds.

The 4 oral doses were 100mg, 100mg, 130mg and 150mg.
The onset of effects happened within 30min of ingestion and was characterized by visible sleepiness, in all four cases.
15min into the onset, the sleepiness suddenly receded and remaining effects lasted for 3-4h.
No PUPIL DILATION ( mydriasis ) was observed for 4 hours in any of the subjects !!!
A slight lockjaw ( trismus ) was observed IN ONLY ONE subject (a 38y, 85kg male and the 150mg dose).

SUBJECTIVE EFFECTS after the onset:
Feeling of general well being in all subjects
Analgesia of chronic back pain in one subject.
Report of sobering up, in one subject who was drinking ethanol for two hours before ingesting the "Dutch MDMA crystals".
Reports of euphoria and feeling of having energy ...but all subjects were sitting on a couch for 4h.
Lucid but introverted ( "mongy" ) behavior in all subjects.
Reports of hot/cold flashes and transient sweatiness of extremities slightly after the onset.
No outward talkativeness in all subjects.
No unusual empathy towards others visible from outside in all subjects.
Report of increased tactile sensations from one subject.
Reports of changed visual acuity in two subjects.

Is the above familiar to anyone here?
Any feedback is welcomed...

We've been discussing this in the European drug board for years now, I don't even bother with MDMA any more.

I actually made a post on Reddit about this, speculating that precursors may play a part. People just weren't buying it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDrugNer...rent_precursors_do_have_a_profound_effect_on/

Unlike yourself, I've been able to test with older and newer MDMA on people with no tolerance issues - same result. I actually visited an old friend in Hong Kong in 2017, we did MDMA together twice 2007, it was a phenomenal experience and he has never done it before or since. We tried some together last year and it was so incredibly dull in comparison.

 

[Glubrahnum]

We've been discussing this in the European drug board for years now, I don't even bother with MDMA any more.

You should not give up. We are coming up with new hard evidence that you were right all along. See this thread.

We get lab reports on most major pills, many of us reagent test our gear. It always checks out as MDMA, often very pure too. So why is it crap?

In my opinion because the testing centers are not doing exhaustive analysis for 3,4-MDMA. It is just too expensive and time consuming for them.
I don't think they are routinely set up to distinguish the Regioisomers, Isobaries and their different salts, not to mention the enantiomer ratios and crystal polymorphisms.
Again, see this thread for details where G_Chem has dug up some other spectrograms for comparison with mine (warning: He only mentions them. They are not posted in that thread).

I actually made a post on Reddit about this, speculating that precursors may play a part. People just weren't buying it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDrugNerds/comments/413180/different_precursors_do_have_a_profound_effect_on/

The mistake that you have made in that discussion is that you were quoting too much of subjective experiences. I would not have believed you either, but now that has changed now ...after I observed the effect of MDxx on 4 Virgin users.
You should stick to objective facts, that cannot be easily debunked such as:
- different spectrograms
- lack of Mydriasis in non-obese Virgin users at doses 100g -150g.

BTW: The Marquis, Mecke, etc... reagent test are presumptive and not conclusive so most scientists will not treat them seriously.

Unlike yourself, I've been able to test with older and newer MDMA on people with no tolerance issues - same result.

"Unlike" ?
Alas, my 4 test subjects were also Virgin users with no history of MDxx use, nor cocaine, nor any anti-depressants. Not even cannabis. ...only ethanol history.
No Mydriasis on all 4 cases - this cannot be ignored !

 

[G_Chem]

I've now linked some specs to the other thread. I am beginning to finally compile evidence that perhaps the old school mdma was a hydrated polymorph, and MDMA of today is anhydrous. Raman spec from the early days (1989, 2000, 2003 so far) shows hydrated polymorphism as common and not many anhydrous samples, more recent spec from 2014 shows anhydrous. Although more needs to be seen, I need to find more research on ecstasy seized recently and analyzed before conclusions can be made.

What we know without a doubt.. MDMA can and does vary with at least two other hydrated polymorphs which can be made via different crystallization conditions. How these polymorphs effect the overall experience we as of yet do not know but we can extrapolate from the pharmaceutical industry research that they do indeed have pharmacological differences.

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

What about these users who always ingest their MDMA dissolved in water? ...or some juice

Would they see any difference between these polymorphs?

 

[G_Chem]

That I'm not entirely sure although I would assume yes.. Hmm very good question.

As I searched more today I found more anhydrous Raman specs from back in the day so I'm beginning to have second thoughts on that theory. And have yet to see any from more recently (as I think the studies using these on ecstasyvwere mainly to test the efficacy of the technique moreso than to show us what's in our pills) so for now I remain inconclusive on the subject.

With that said I still think this problem is very potentially polymorphic (and if not then impurities) and will be adding some more links and great info to support this theory as well as linking pictures of both anhydrous mdma and mdma monohydrate which look drastically different and can be spotted easily. One study I found even checked the hydrates formed from different solvents and found different polymorphs or "forms" as they call them based on solvent used. While it may not be anhydrous MDMA that's the culprit it could be another possibly unknown polymorph that is forming from this new route clandestine labs are taking.

I'm going to work on that now..

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

I posted in the other thread, but I wanted to post here as well. Thank you again to everyone contributing to this discussion.

Your observations line up precisely with my own experience, as well as my time-line. I have had two primary sources for MDMA since 2000. The first source involved local, pressed pills. I had this source from 2000-2005. The characteristics of this source were: 15-20 minute come-up, a "rush," extreme empathy and love, fantastic sex, mydriasis, jaw tremors, eye-shaking, enhanced music, enhanced tactile sensations, "magic." Yes, these pills were sent to ecstasydata and were tested as MDMA. The comedown was generally 1-2 days of moodiness or "emo" depression.

In 2005, my supplier quit. Also, at that time, there was a large bust in the area and a major distributor was shut down. I had to turn to non-local sources and began to receive powder instead of pills. The characteristics of the powder were: longer 30-45 minute come-up, sleepy feeling, feeling cold, feeling introverted, being in a good mood but no rush of empathy and love, lack of energy. Sometimes there are eye jitters, but as someone else mentioned they don't feel "good." Everything is less intense. The comedown/after-effects is physical with bouts of nausea/indigestion/dizziness but no emo Tuesday. The after-effects last longer. These capsules was also sent to a lab and tested to be MDMA, but with an impurity from the manufacturing process (1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol) (http://www.chemicalbook.com/Chemical...CB92456152.htm ).

Obviously, as someone who has a long history of use, there is a question of tolerance. However, other people I know have identical observations and an identical time-line. I also find it odd that my tolerance would magically develop at the same exact time that the supplier changed.

I want answers. I would love to have access to the same product I had access to from 2000-2005. If there were more complex and accurate tests, I would absolutely send in samples. Although both products were tested as MDMA they feel like completely different products and have totally different profiles.

Thank you for investigating this.

 

[mrbenn]

@Le Junk.
I completely understand where you're coming from here. Without being at risk of getting tainted with the "oldie all rolled out" diagnosis from some of our younger contributers to your thread, for the first time last week I was reunited with some crystal MDMA that 100 per cent mimicked the pills from the late eighties, early nineties. I'm 47 now and I've missed that proper "magic" feeling. I'm trying to remember a pill name that would resemble the effects of the MDMA I have now and one of them that springs to mind is the "California Sunrise". I don't know if you ever tried that in the very early 90's. This is the same effect. Fun, love, empathy, very little comedown and a wonderful feeling of being alive and communicating among others with beautiful hues and visuals. Next morning felt great. Now I've rolled on and off for over 25 years maybe 2 or 3 times a year and finally I've come across a batch of mdma crystal that is entirely the same as these early pills. My last roll was 150mg last Saturday night in half a cigarette paper washed down with a little water. I was on the go at the latest, 20 minutes after swallowing that bomb and about 3 hours later I redosed with 80 mg. The night was awesome. I Started at 12am and was sleeping by 8am. I awoke completely feeling ok and ready for tea and toast. That real MDMA is out there. I have it. And am actually quite sad I might never get to purchase it every again. It's that good I actually feel like measuring some out as we speak. But I'm terrified of building a tolerance to it. My brain feels absolutely fine and ready for another go.

Also @ Le Junk does the mdma you get from your contact race your heart etc. Mine stayed completely fine throughout. I just sipped water and talked and felt amazing all night. I believe that the MDMA we people are taking today although testing as MDMA is not of the quality of the type you speak of. I know, because I've been taking the same pills as them and not from the same batch as your contact. But it maybe be made the same somewhat.

 

[indigoaura]

I was on the go at the latest, 20 minutes after

Mrbenn: I do not have quite the history of use that you do. My first roll was in 2000. But this is exactly the kind of experience I remember as well. Everything always happened in 15 to 20 minutes. I recall one experience in particular where I only took 1/2 of a pill, and I was absolutely floored in 15 minutes and good for the rest of the evening. Do you find that less desirable MDMA takes longer to take effect? I regularly chart a 45 minute come-up.

To me, the difference in time alone indicates a slightly different substance. If we were just old timers who are incapable of feeling the full effect, wouldn't we still feel something at 15-20 minutes (even if it was diminished)?

 

[mrbenn]

Of course it's possible that's part of the problem here Indigoaura. I mean when you mention 'less desirable mdma might take quicker to come up.'
I've been known to come up on a ups pill an hour and a half later after swallowing half , feeling nothing, then swallowing the other half 5 or 10 minutes before the first half started to hit.

 

[anon65535]

Interesting discussion and mrbenn if you can, I would love to see a pic of this new MDMA you have. I'm sure others would like to see it as well. Any chance of that?

I would like to add some facts to the discussion. Polymorphs cannot be seen with a GC/MS. The different salts and whether a mixture is racemic can only be seen with a proton NMR test. I am no chemist, but I believe even with an NMR, it would not be possible to see the ratio of R to S, just the two methylene peaks from the stereocenter. I do find that theory however, to be the most convincing though it would be the hardest to prove. It's been a while since I took MDMA though I plan to do it in a few months as winter winds down (don't like doing it when it's cold, just my preference). I have a few different batches, one of which I have an NMR analysis on done by a friend. It was not a dutch batch, but a canadian one and it was shown to be a racemic mixture. However, when I took it I remember it was good, but not great. The best batch I personally have is an old dutch batch. The canadian one was a black crystal. Sounds weird I know but that's what it was. I may have to give that a go when I do plan to roll again.

I'd love to be able to find out why some batches are just crap even though they are tested by GC/MS to be MDMA.

I will also say that I personally love MDA, but man if that doesn't have a harsh comedown. That shit is like a freight train, you feel incredibly fucked up and it lasts a while but the next day is just death, at least for me.

 

[indigoaura]

Of course it's possible that's part of the problem here Indigoaura. I mean when you mention 'less desirable mdma might take quicker to come up.'
I've been known to come up on a ups pill an hour and a half later after swallowing half , feeling nothing, then swallowing the other half 5 or 10 minutes before the first half started to hit.

Not sure what you mean. The less desirable pills take LONGER to come up for me. I was asking if that has been your experience as well. The old fashioned pills were quick to hit for me in 15-20 minutes.

 

[indigoaura]

Here is a general question for everyone: is there anywhere to send samples that does a more advanced analysis that would show some of these more complex elements?

 

[anon65535]

Here is a general question for everyone: is there anywhere to send samples that does a more advanced analysis that would show some of these more complex elements?

Not that I know of. EnergyControl I know cannot do NMR analysis.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Here is a general question for everyone: is there anywhere to send samples that does a more advanced analysis that would show some of these more complex elements?

you would need to know someone with access to an LCMS to rule out the R/S hypothesis

the R / S ratio issue could be very easily addressed by running samples through a chiral LCMS column. Many commercial and clinical labs do this with methamphetamine, to determine whether or not meth in bodily fluids is recreational (racemic or D meth) or the non psychoactive L meth (vicks inhaler).

It would take about 15 minutes or so to modify the methamphetamine LCMS analysis method to analyze for mdma. its really easy to do, no body has bothered to do it though

 

[mrbenn]

Not sure what you mean. The less desirable pills take LONGER to come up for me. I was asking if that has been your experience as well. The old fashioned pills were quick to hit for me in 15-20 minutes.

That's exactly what I did mean mate, the U.P.S. pill never took effect on me for 1.5 hours. The type of MDMA Le Junk and I are talking about hits you very quick and is 10 times more enjoyable than the normal pills going around these days and theres little or no comedown.

 

[anon65535]

Wow, that looks just like the MDA I have but MDA takes a bit longer to come up than 20 minutes. Looks delicious though, that's what it should look like. I've done a few hot acetone washes on the MDMA I have and will test it soon, I'm curious it that will affect anything. I'm not planning to recrystallize it in h2o or methanol/ipa. I added 5% IPA to the boiling anhydrous acetone to increase solubility and couldn't even get everything to dissolve, but most did. I now have it crashing out of the solution in the freezer after bring it to room temperature. That stuff looks good though. Was it tested and with what?

Nice find %)