2017 Trump Presidency Thread

[Fresco]

I wish i shared your optimism, but it's simply not true.

Reports today of china bullding refugee camps, anticipating a massive humanitarian disaster in north korea.
The world is a long way from "fine".

We're teetering on the brink of some very serious disasters.

We are already experiencing a monumental refugee crisis.

Look at the hostility in europe and elsewhere to people fleeing warzones in the middle east and elsewhere - it's not very nice, is it?
Now, imagine adding a few million Koreans, or even Japanese people fleeing a war zone, or - say - the fallout from a nuclear attack on Japan or South Korea.

This is some serious shit.

I would argue that this is no time to "stay positive".
It's the time for people (especially americans) to be telling their government that war is not the answer, and that for trump to start a war with an unpredictable nuclear state to attempt to save his political career would be suicidal.


Killing and displacing miliions of people is never an ok thing.
What a "2017" thing to say.

No SpaceJunk, you're totally flipping out for no reason whatsoever!!

Get a fucking grip and chill out already!! Dammit!!

 

[tathra]

Keep in mind the Korean war already happened, it was very real, and sanctioned by the U.N. The Americans who fought in the Korean War are heroes and patriots. It's one of the most justifiable wars America has fought.

I would not be saddened if it reoccurred. I know that is an unpopular opinion here.

War is not something to look forward to or hope for.

 

[cj]

Doug Jones is winning at 923 central time! Do you believe in miracles?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/alabama-senate-special-election-roy-moore-doug-jones

looks like trump has a few more tweets to delete!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

War is not something to look forward to or hope for.

This is a discussion best left for another thread. I respect your opinion.

 

[spacejunk]

No SpaceJunk, you're totally flipping out for no reason whatsoever!!

Get a fucking grip and chill out already!! Dammit!!

I'm not flipping out, i'm looking at all of the available information and saying that the rhetoric is very troubling.

It would be foolish to trust an unhinged dotard like donald trump.
The lives of millions - even billions - are in the hands of an extremely fucked up man.

Be complacent if you like, but i don't share your view. I'm not sure why you are trying to categorise my concern into as "flipping out".

 

[tathra]

This is a discussion best left for another thread. I respect your opinion.

The discussion basically boils down to "unless you're willing to sign up yourself, wanting to send others to their deaths is callous af". Theres other arguments but imo if you're up for putting your own life on the line then i don't mind you having a say, but if it's only the lives of others you want to put at risk, fuck you.

 

[swilow]

Keep in mind the Korean war already happened, it was very real, and sanctioned by the U.N. The Americans who fought in the Korean War are heroes and patriots. It's one of the most justifiable wars America has fought.

I would not be saddened if it reoccurred. I know that is an unpopular opinion here.

Would you say Vietnam was justified?

I'd be deeply concerned that a Korea Part II would ramp up into a broader and more fiery conflict.

Personally, I'm not sure its up to the US to intervene in regional disputes. Track record isn't great.

 

[spacejunk]

^ agreed.

Military force applied like that doesn't tend to work out so well, unless you consider ISIS and the Khmer Rouge a good thing
The other very real danger with North Korea is if Kim Jong Un were overthrown; we'd have a power vacuum with nuclear weapons, which is - in every sense, not a Good Thing.

 

[tathra]

^ agreed.

Military force applied like that doesn't tend to work out so well, unless you consider ISIS and the Khmer Rouge a good thing
The other very real danger with North Korea is if Kim Jong Un were overthrown; we'd have a power vacuum with nuclear weapons, which is - in every sense, not a Good Thing.

The problem is that counter-insurgency doesn't exactly come naturally to most in the military. To win against an insurgency you have to basically win a popularity contest with the locals against the insurgents. "Hearts and minds" is no joke, that's the core of COIN ops. That's why we lost vietnam and why we've struggled so hard in Iraq especially, we had no reason to be there and the locals didn't want us there. Afghanistan we really were welcomed by the locals so we had an easier time, but poking our nose in where it isn't wanted will only result in an even bigger mess.

 

[spacejunk]

Yep.
I really wish trump would stop poking this hornet's nest and just de-escalate.

Ss much as i feel for the poor people of north korea, i don't see anything good that can come from this.
Just a bloodbath. Another one

 

[tathra]

Yep.
I really wish trump would stop poking this hornet's nest and just de-escalate.

Ss much as i feel for the poor people of north korea, i don't see anything good that can come from this.
Just a bloodbath. Another one

dont get me wrong, the kims are fucking despots, but they dont really want to go into a war, despite acting like they do, and the act is entirely rational. the dumbest thing we could do is force kim's hand by attacking them. really the only move we can make against them is to somehow educate the populace to overthrow him themselves, but making that happen is a giant problem itself.

 

[spacejunk]

Yep, i couldn't agree more.
This sabre-rattling just seems like utter insanity to me.

It's as if all the lessons of the past (nazism = bad, nuclear holocaust = bad etc etc) have been forgotten, ignores or sugar coated by this administration.

 

[Kittycat5]

Yep, i couldn't agree more.
This sabre-rattling just seems like utter insanity to me.

It's as if all the lessons of the past (nazism = bad, nuclear holocaust = bad etc etc) have been forgotten, ignores or sugar coated by this administration.

Im all for letting N. Korea know we could obliterate them but I think they are aware and from what Ive been reading they have been reaching out for a diplomatic resolution. I just pray our "fearless leader" here in the USA is just grandstanding as well but I have my doubts.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

The Kims' sabre-rattling include occasional small attacks on South Korea - shelling, sinking ships, etc.

Very easy for this to escalate to open war.

Just read a semi-plausible scenario about that.

 

[tathra]

Im all for letting N. Korea know we could obliterate a bunch of innocent civilians

how about no. considering n.korea has nukes, i'm all for tolerating the occasional small attacks on s.korea, just to keep ww3 and a nuclear holocaust from starting. kim is doing what he has to to keep himself and his country going, and he's doing it to keep us at bay. it sucks, but its not our business to go poking in. we need to stop playing world police when we're not invited and let other countries maintain sovereignty. we're only just now starting to get a taste of the kind of shit we've been doing to other countries for decades, and personally i am not a fan.

 

[Kittycat5]

So its ok for them to show they have the capability to hit our country with an ICBM but not ok for us or anyone else to show our might? Im 100% against using it and said I think they are damn well aware we could erase them, even without nuclear weapons. My point was I do not think Trump knows when enough is enough and very well may lead us to war when diplomacy is what is needed.

What has N. Korea recently asked for? To stop the yearly show of force we partake in around this time. They see what we and our allies can do, but because Trump always needs to be "right" I just am not sure he is willing to give it up.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

we need to stop playing world police when we're not invited and let other countries maintain sovereignty.

Depends on the situation. For the most part, I think we help stabilize the Korean peninsula.

As of now, any military invasion by North Korea would kill American soldiers. That would likely drag America into the war. There's no ability by North Korea to take out America first. So even if North Korea could hope that a surprise attack would destroy South Korea's ability to retaliate, it would still face the US - and lose.

Since South Korea doesn't want to attack the North (war is bad for a modern economy), we have stability.

 

[tathra]

china is supporting n.korea and we're supporting s.korea. and yes, we're far too big for n.korea to win in a fight against us, but i'm pretty sure getting into a fight with n.korea means getting into a fight with china, and china would win against us on sheer numbers. and n.korea could do a shitton of damage against us, especially knowing that they wont come out of the fight alive. cornered animals are fucking vicious. its just not worth it.

My point was I do not think Trump knows when enough is enough and very well may lead us to war when diplomacy is what is needed.

he doesnt. he's a narcissist and a moron.

So its ok for them to show they have the capability to hit our country with an ICBM but not ok for us or anyone else to show our might?

the whole world already knows our might. we're still coasting by from nuking japan 70 years ago, and the decades of playing world police that came after.

 

[swilow]

how about no. considering n.korea has nukes, i'm all for tolerating the occasional small attacks on s.korea, just to keep ww3 and a nuclear holocaust from starting. kim is doing what he has to to keep himself and his country going, and he's doing it to keep us at bay. it sucks, but its not our business to go poking in. we need to stop playing world police when we're not invited and let other countries maintain sovereignty. we're only just now starting to get a taste of the kind of shit we've been doing to other countries for decades, and personally i am not a fan.

I largely agree but I don't think Kim is trying to keep the west at bay as much as attempting to stay in power at any cost. He's a tyrant with no legitimate claim to power and only fear keeps that type on the throne. Cultivating a sort of stereotypical mad-dog image is highly effective. I think Kims biggest risk factor is his own people revolting and so a lot of his behavior is directed towards them.

Like you though, I totally do not believe it's up to western powers (I.e. The USA) to police the world, even for so called humanitarian reasons. Or, more to the point, it doesn't appear to be very effective at doing so and not creating problems in the future. There are circumstances where this is unavoidable but I'm not sure this is one. Trump is foolishly starting shit and being belligerent and for similar reasons to Kim. Luke Skywalker, help us.