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The SEX ALLEGATIONS Megathread

Something I often think about when something like this happens and it turns out it's been widespread and widely known and ignored for years. I often wonder what other shit like this is going on that nothing is being done about.

When you consider all the horrible shit we know about must only be a small fraction of the total that exists, it's pretty horrifying.
 
Is it possible for us as a society to get to a place where stuff like this can be investigated and properly prosecuted without instantly ruining the lives of the accused? I’m not talking about this specific case, just in general. I’m a compassionate person and there’s no doubt that institutionalized sexism exists. It’s a huge problem. But am I a terrible person for wanting due process? For recognizing the mere possibility that an accuser might be misrepresenting or exaggerating certain things?
 
JessFR said:
Yeah frankly I don't think anyone has the right to be saying "oh they should have reported sooner what about all the victims there have been since"?.

You don't think rape victims know that? You think that never occurred to them? Of course it did. But for a million reasons they still didn't report it. And unless you can say you have any idea what that's like I don't really think you have much right to make that argument cause it's made out of ignorance.

It is SO easy to be brave and heroic and do the right thing when you have no first hand experience and it's all hypothetical.
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Amen and thank you, Jess.
 
Posted in Pedophilia in the News thread (sorry for no link -- I'm in mobile): Fifth woman accuses Polanski of childhood sexual abuse and petitions for his removal from removed from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
 
mal3volent said:
Is it possible for us as a society to get to a place where stuff like this can be investigated and properly prosecuted without instantly ruining the lives of the accused?
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If Harvey's life is ruined it'll be from judgments, alimony and child support. Nothing new has come out for his milieu to smear his reputation. This is a celebrity sex scandal; you wouldn't hear about the VP of General Distribution for Safeway's shocking history of harassing the secretaries.

I doubt anyone would call you a terrible person for wanting the due process he'd get if there's a trial (and he'd have ample representation); could it be you've been coming on a bit strong in your defense of this guy? I mean, how many men's lives have been instantly ruined by a public sex scandal, and who were later acquitted, can you actually think of?

As for scolding us, the subject of this thread IS "the mere possibility" there's more to the story.
 
Scrofula said:
If Harvey's life is ruined it'll be from judgments, alimony and child support. Nothing new has come out for his milieu to smear his reputation. This is a celebrity sex scandal; you wouldn't hear about the VP of General Distribution for Safeway's shocking history of harassing the secretaries.

I doubt anyone would call you a terrible person for wanting the due process he'd get if there's a trial (and he'd have ample representation); could it be you've been coming on a bit strong in your defense of this guy? I mean, how many men's lives have been instantly ruined by a public sex scandal, and who were later acquitted, can you actually think of?

As for scolding us, the subject of this thread IS "the mere possibility" there's more to the story.
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If you read the sentence immediately after what you quoted, I said, “not talking about this specific case”. I realize there are more factors to consider in high profile celebrity situations. I’ve never defended anyone, this is only my second post on the matter.

The first example that comes to mind is the Duke Lacrosse case. Three students were falsely accused of rape and hate crimes. The prosecutor was disbarred. They were almost immediately suspended based solely on the allegations. Their entire season was cancelled and the coach was forced to resign. I’m pretty close to Durham and trust me this was all anyone talked about for months. It was mishandled on every level, including the police department.

A year later, after their reputations were destroyed, the governor declared them innocent. He also chose not to prosecute the girl who made the whole thing up.

and yeah, I’ve known people who made shit up about other people just to get back at them for something.

We need a base level of scrutiny and impartiality when the stakes are this high.

P.S. I didn’t scold anyone. Stop being so dramatic.
 
Then who was the first post directed at? The citizens of Durham? The NCAA? If you're thinking of a completely different situation why bring it up here without reference?

I'm sorry, and admit I have a knee-jerk response when I hear suggestions that I'm being too credulous when women allege sexual assault. The Duke case was ugly, just as ugly as all the other cases when the community sided with the quarterback. (I also admit I have two biases: Duke, and Lacrosse.)

But of course you're right, that allegations of sexual assault are very serious, just like with all felonies. Especially if minors are involved, one reason I flee when I see children. The local community should absolutely reserve judgment on the accused.

Just like they should the alleged victim, many of whom are afraid to come forward because of the potential damage their community could do to them, especially if the perpetrator is, say, an assistant to a popular football coach.

I guess that since the ratio of damage from false accusations to damage from alleging is so small, when I hear it come up in a thread where fifty women accuse a man with a reputation for doing those very allegations, I assume another apologist for sexual assault. So I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions about your intent.

But to keep with the apples and oranges comparison, we here aren't part of Harvey's community, and I probably couldn't even key his car, is the amount of damage I could do. If you want folks to stay quiet with stuff like this, you'd have to change people's lust for salacious gossip.
 
You are innocent until proven guilty for legal purposes. For social purposes we can assume whatever we want. Of course being able to do something doesn't make you right to do it.

In this case, I'm gonna assume he's guilty. Because I have never seen such widespread accusations by so many people eventually turn out to be untrue. The law has to assume he's innocent, but I don't.
 
When I was a very young, and truly innocent in every sense of the term, I was sexually assaulted by a stranger in the sand dunes close to our home. I had friends with me, and just using his 'authority' (being an adult in this case), all of us did what he said. He had me walk away from my friends. He had me do things that scared me. He had me do things that disgusted me. I never once had the courage to tell him 'no'. I did not fight him in any way. My friends, who were a distance away, did not tell him no, or fight him either. In our minds he was an authority figure, and we had to listen to him. We had to do as he instructed. To this day I believe that if my dog hadn't scared him it would have gotten much worse.

We were out in the open dunes, sky above, sand below. No doors were locked, there was no gun, knife, weapon. Just the authority that we gave him because that is what we had been taught, 'listen to your elders', 'do what your told'. We could have run at any time, but his authority kept us there.

The after: We ran home, we told my MOM what happened. SHE DID NOT BELIEVE US. This is what victims are often met with, disbelief. If my mother, who loved her children heart and soul, needed the evidence of his abuse in order to believe her own daughters and their friends when a STRANGER attacks, what do you think a woman in Hollywood is met with when she says that one of the most powerful people (who has that same authority over these women as that perfect stranger had over 5 little girls) assaulted her?

I am honestly appalled that people have no idea what it is like to have to stand up and say: 'I was sexually assaulted'. Which often translates to 'I am utterly powerless, I am a victim' with in our own hearts and minds. The assault is disastrous to us, it is heinous, painful, spiritually shattering, dehumanizing, and leaves us a shell of who we were 'before'. Make no mistake, these moments in our lives separate our lives into 'before' and 'after'. We are left feeling soulless. The disbelief turns it into something worse. You start to believe things like 'I am not to be trusted', or 'What he/she did wasn't bad', or 'I am ruined'. You become the darkness everyone looks at you with. You become a liar, a slut, a prostitute, and most of all you become 'worthless'. You can't even trust yourself to keep yourself safe.

So before you say that these women probably were assaulted willingly, find out what being a victim does to your soul. Know that for every person that believes you, there are 3 that don't. As the victim you are poked and prodded, your body searched for 'evidence', you become the crime scene as well as the crime. Why would anyone want to go through this for no reason?

In shame no more- grsh
 
I don’t want anyone to be ashamed. And I think it’s sad that a mother would not believe her own daughter.

But are you really offended by the idea of due process? I mean your story is very compelling and as it was written I see no reason why you shouldn’t be believed. You had nothing to gain, you were completely innocent, yet that man chose to hurt you in the most disgusting way. But not all of these situations are like yours.

I had a friend who broke up with his girlfriend. She was pissed, and honestly she had the right to be. Unfortunately, instead of dealing with it in a healthy way , she decides to make up a bunch of crazy and untrue bullshit. Started telling all her friends. It got all over Facebook and all our friends knew about it. Myself and a few others knew it was bullshit based on details in her story that were inconsistent with what I personally had seen. She later admitted to one of her friends she made the whole thing up and the friend told us. Yet, somehow there are those who still think he did it.

So again, how do we make sure stories like yours are heard and believed without creating a culture where the man is always guilty no matter what? Because they aren’t always guilty. Based on my personal accounts and well known national scandals like Duke Lacrosse.
 
You're the only person saying "the man is always guilty", Mr. Valent. Although you're right, even in your facetious anecdote I'm leaning toward the woman. You have pretty flimsy evidence to say she's making it all up--hearsay isn't admissible in court, and your friend isn't exactly unbiased.

And really, if your friend didn't get felony charges, or his business lose customers, you're whining about second-hand gossip in a thread about rape and assault--you even suggested the poster above you might be just making it up. So, poor trolling? I'd expect a better anecdote in that case, or better concern than, Alas, how can we stop the further besmirching of good mens' names!

I am curious what your suggestions for "due process" reform would look like. Unless that's just the setup for some MRA bullshit.
 
Scrofula said:
You're the only person saying "the man is always guilty", Mr. Valent. Although you're right, even in your facetious anecdote I'm leaning toward the woman. You have pretty flimsy evidence to say she's making it all up--hearsay isn't admissible in court, and your friend isn't exactly unbiased.

And really, if your friend didn't get felony charges, or his business lose customers, you're whining about second-hand gossip in a thread about rape and assault--you even suggested the poster above you might be just making it up. So, poor trolling? I'd expect a better anecdote in that case, or better concern than, Alas, how can we stop the further besmirching of good mens' names!

I am curious what your suggestions for "due process" reform would look like. Unless that's just the setup for some MRA bullshit.
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Well, for starters, how was my anecdote facetious? Maybe I’m not as educated in vocabulary as you, but that description doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Second, it wasn’t my friend who told us. It was hers. But you know, she had a conscience I guess. And extending this into the courtroom is kind of ridiculous, but I’ll play along. I’m not a legal scholar either, but I would think the testimony of a person who witnessed a confession could be admissible. I’m not whining, I was simply sharing a story that was relevant to the broader discussion.

Also wtf are you talking about I suggested the poster above me was lying? Did you even read my post? I said her story was compelling and I probably would be inclined to believe her. I then went on to say not all stories are like hers. Just because there are times that the accused are guilty don’t mean there aren’t other times when they aren’t.

By the way, I’ve been posting on this forum for going on 6 and a half years. So I’m not a troll. You can look through my posts and see that for yourself if you are so inclined.

And I never said the due process laws needed reformed. I only said maybe we as a society could be a little more patient and reserve judgement until the accused is afforded his constitutional rights. Mass shooters get trials. Bombers get trials. These are principles we need to respect even in cases that are repulsive to us. And if we get our pitchforks out and convict someone in the eyes of the public, we are undermining legal safeguards that we ourselves might need one day.

I’ve been very agreeable and respectful throughout this conversation. I don’t understand why you just went ape shit on me. Learn to have a civil discussion.
 
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G.R.S.H. said:
What does my story have to do with due process?
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I guess I was just asking for your perspective, as a person who has survived sexual abuse. Just in general, not referring to any one particular case, should we as a society refrain from dogpiling on someone until they’ve had a chance at due process? I know it’s a touchy subject, I just thought you might have been willing to share your thoughts. That’s all.
 
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