Leftist Discussion Thread

[What 23]

i look forward to the day when a native american gets elected as president and starts deporting everyone of european descent back to europe.

I'm also of Native American descent (or a relative/common-seed population somehow).

I doubt this country would function nearly as smoothly without the white power-base, and white people. Honestly, if they moved out, it would be chaos, and people would come chasing (some, at least). Gibs me dat.

I do understand how that comment came off as ignorant, but the culture here is of me/I am of it. I much more "native" to it than these many others. This isn't to say it is exclusive to me, or that I own it, or that given time it would not blend in good conditions and proper direction, but I feel a special kind of affinity for it that others may not right this second- of course they don't, many resent it. They resent whiteness. They resent us.

Honestly it is not as if I see a future where I or white people have deported others. I don't mean to say that at all. But I would like areas of relative harmony. I would like Germany to stay Germany, more or less, in my life-time (it isn't really staying Germany). I'd like to visit vibrant culture everywhere, and I do not mind visitation and trade, and "minorities" that don't live out of balance. I also don't mind being a minority in another country, or would not, if treated fairly (for a time, but I'd probably like to return home). I don't have any beliefs that would cause me to dominate them, absolutely, currently; I don't have a book that myself and my like me carry that has a message of hatred toward them (while I use Christianity as an example of things, I don't claim absolute religion as based from a book that other men made- but I do use them), but Muslims do have this, and many of the Africans currently migrating are Muslims (Middle East it is a given, mostly). One aspect of an issue.

I'm not nearly as concerned about the cultural effects of Latin Americans entering/of flow with them-around them. At this point there wouldn't be near the issue without stupid policies largely caused by my country (drug war, I'm not saying the white man is really "good"). I wish we had a better national ecosystem here, that didn't stir what is occurring now. Something Hillary Clinton said resonated with a hope of mine, about an open system on this end of the world. But we need to keep Islam from gaining numbers here. It's already got a hold on Europe, although time will tell how that pans out. Hopefully well.

Also, as if they didn't take it from someone else (as has been the case for awhile, it's pretty likely it happened--when does your social justice end, are you a vegan? should i repent for eating meat? kill myself for it like Freely the Banana Girl said we should?). Sheesh. "We" let them live. That's why there is memory of it. Good thing whitey (the western ecosystem) perfected the print-press, aye?

 

[socko]

^^ go where??

Where they came from. Britain and Sweden complain their labor force is too small. If they have room for all of the illiterate African tribesmen they're importing, they must have room for Americans who can show European ancestry.

 

[Soso78]

Labour force too small? There not enough jobs mate.
Who says we got room for illiterate african tribesmen?

 

[swilow]

Of course he edited his post a hundred tmes. Well, I'm responding to version 1.3 I guess...

I'm also of Native American descent (or a relative/common-seed population somehow).

I doubt this country would function nearly as smoothly without the white power-base, and white people. Honestly, if they moved out, it would be chaos, and people would come chasing (some, at least). Gibs me dat.

Are you sure white people really represent that much benefit? Population of the America's was pretty high upon colonisation. There were relatively complex societies.

White people benefited but who else- the dead sure didn't.

I do understand how that comment came off as ignorant, but the culture here is of me/I am of it. I much more "native" to it than these many others. This isn't to say it is exclusive to me, or that I own it, or that given time it would not blend in good conditions and proper direction, but I feel a special kind of affinity for it that others may not right this second- of course they don't, many resent it. They resent whiteness. They resent us.

Who does?

Why do you always have to turn everything into focusing on 'white people'? White people are really not under the threat that you seem to imagine. White people are not victims here.

If you look at history over the last 500 years, you will see that the greatest threat to any society has been the arrival of 'white' people. I am not saying that white people should be ashamed or feel guilty, but I think its important to attain the correct perspective.

Also, as if they didn't conquer it from someone else. Sheesh. "We" let them live. That's why there is memory of it. Good thing whitey perfected the print-press, aye?

Yes, white people did let them live, about 10% of them at least. This figure is repeated in many sources I have read. How noble.

A similar thing happened to indigenous Australians. I'm not sure indigenous Australians really benefited from the printing press all that much.

You're kidding yourself if you think that technological advances are more important than the incredible moral and ethical degradation that occurred simultaneously. People like you often consider such technology, scientific, artistic advances as reasons why white people are superior but there should be a much broader criteria for judging a group. Much of the colonisation we saw a few hundred years back came with some of the greatest suffering in human history.

Plus, there is no point in claiming superiority because people that look like you did some cool things. You personally haven't invented anything worth a dogs fart, nor contributed anything artistic or of cuultural value, so until you do, be content with being a nobody like the rest of us.

 

[socko]

Labour force too small? There not enough jobs mate.
Who says we got room for illiterate african tribesmen?

I agree with you that there are not enough jobs, but those in power like it that way. They profit from job shortages and surplus labor.

These are the same people who have been pushing to bring in those tribesmen. The politicians and those who pay them. Those who profit from paying people below-subsistence wages - Walmart, McDonalds, manufacturers, agriculture, etc. The bigger the labor pool and the higher the unemployment rate, the less you can pay your workers.

 

[spacejunk]

We're better at killing then they are
Besides, the land was mostly uninhabited. It's not like they would have built a superpower. They'd still be like those un contacted tribes in the jungle.

Uninhabited? No, it was sustainably populated by humans.

A "superpower" that is contributing a great deal towards the poisoning and destruction of the planet that sustains our existance is no "smoothly functioning" (the USA? Ha, right) utopian civilisation.

Sure, we have advanced technology, and modern medicine (oh, only if you can afford it - yay america) - but the current material wealth of contemporary americans is absolutely unsustainable in numerous ways.
We cannot continue to live as we do - using finite resources that poison the air and water we need to live - at this pace for too much longer. It's simply not possible.

As nation states - and empires - go, the USA seems to be in some kind of death spiral and international suicide pact.
You're not the only country doing it - they all are - but as a "superpower", a "beacon of democracy" or whatever, the USA doesn't show any leadership or set any kind of example to less powerful, prosperous and influential nations when it comes to planning for a sustainable future.
Since the USA took on this "superpower" role, the devastation of the world's ecosystems has been more rapid than any other time in human history.

As for this talk of indigenous american peoples, it just goes to show how incoherent you guys' ramblings about "white genocide" are.
Incoherent and ironic in a totally unintional way. Not pepe the frog 'don't-quite-understand-how-to-be-sarcastic-but-gonna-try-anyway' irony, but the irony of an ethnic group who literally colonised the planet complaining about "white genocide".

Laughable, incoherent and typical of the kind of absurd historical revisionism that various people are pushing these days.

It seems ridiculous to me how advanced technologies such as the world wide web end up as conduits for so much intellectual effluent.
I mean, it's never been easier to be well informed, but it seems like a lot of people are willingly (and proudly) misinformed.

I understand that there is so much information available to us nowadays that it is increasingly impossible for any individual to effectively process even a fraction of it - but the echo-chambers of the online world seem to just be flooded with propaganda, distraction and straight-up bullshit.

Do people go for the easy answers and the simplistic media analysis because they're too lazy to consume media that isn't sensationalist and emotive?

Or is it the sensationalism and emotive nature of tabloid news and journalistically dubious news/current affairs/politics websites that draw people in?

Or does the ubiquity of "social media" mean that we are just being informed by one another, essentially bypassing traditional methods of sourcing information altogether?

Or does this bizarre belief that modern america is unquestionably better than the pristine continent that existed before european "settlement" (ahem) come from somewhere other than the media?
I don't want to talk about right wing topics in this thread, so i'm really just musing about the bewildering degradation of political discourse in the last few years.
How did we get here?
And does every low-rent fringe-dweller subculture "go mainstream" these days?

If so, i'm hoping the seeds of cultural and political opposition that have already been sown across the western world grow large and strong as the last generations of people who grew up in an explicitly racist society exercise their power politically and socially.
These ideas might seem to be in resurgeance, but i suspect they're really in their death-throes.
You're on the wrong side of history if you cannot accept the diversity of humanity, and the fact that we all share this planet (and the little bits we divide up in straight lines on maps and call countries) together, like it or not.
The idea that white european people have some kind of inherent cultural superiority is nonsense, and both ryan01 and what 23 have argued in favour of some kind of segregated "monoculture" numerous times before - a position that lacks any basis in reality whatsoever.

It's really pointlessly dangerous rhetoric. Ethnic cleansing is not fucking ok.

 

[socko]

...I understand that there is so much information available to us nowadays that it is increasingly impossible for any individual to effectively process even a fraction of it - but the echo-chambers of the online world seem to just be flooded with propaganda, distraction and straight-up bullshit.

Do people go for the easy answers and the simplistic media analysis because they're too lazy to consume media that isn't sensationalist and emotive?

Or is it the sensationalism and emotive nature of tabloid news and journalistically dubious news/current affairs/politics websites and "fake news" propagating social media that draw people in?

Or does the ubiquity of "social media" mean that we are just being informed by one another, essentially bypassing traditional
....
How did we get here?
And does every low-rent fringe-dweller subculture "go mainstream" these days?
...

My theory is that in the US for example, starting in the 1980 in most school districts in the country, the pre-college (K-12) public education system began experiencing drastic budget cuts. The generation who had just come of age in the 1970s overwhelmingly, in places where it could be put on the ballot, district by district across the country, voted for these cuts. Class size was increased, the school year was shortened, classes were eliminated, and entire subjects were eliminated. The result was that the learning environment deteriorated. Core class material was eliminated or reduced. Grades were inflated. And that gave us the fiasco of Orange 45 versus Hildo.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

My theory is that in the US for example, starting in the 1980 in most school districts in the country, the pre-college (K-12) public education system began experiencing drastic budget cuts. Class size was increased, the school year was shortened, classes were eliminated, and entire subjects were eliminated. The result was that the learning environment deteriorated. Core class material was eliminated or reduced. Grades were inflated. And that gave us the fiasco of Orange 45 versus Hildo.

I've been working in the public education system (in a rich area I'd add) the past year or two, and it disgusts me how poor the education these kids are receiving is; they're pushing through and graduating kids who can't even spell the word 'graduate'. It's only gotten worse since I was that age and it's what has turned me away from continuing a career in education; people are too stupid to learn, or don't want to learn, or simply aren't being taught, and I don't want to be a part of it.

 

[socko]

That's sad. College tries to make up for it, assuming you don't go to a party school. I took all AP courses in high school, and we used college level text books. That helped the higher performing students a lot. Sadly, the other 90% missed a lot of learning opportunities because they didn't have access to the same material.

 

[spacejunk]

Sad indeed.
While education isn't essential for having intelligence or critical thinking skills, i think it goes without saying that people generally are far more adept at using their skills of deductive reasoning when these skills are nurtured in an educational environment.

Skimping on education funding is reckless, even dangerous, when large amounts of the people that were affected by the shortcomings in education achieve positions of influence collectively, especially through the ballot box.

 

[What 23]

Of course he edited his post a hundred tmes. Well, I'm responding to version 1.3 I guess...



Are you sure white people really represent that much benefit? Population of the America's was pretty high upon colonisation. There were relatively complex societies.

White people benefited but who else- the dead sure didn't.

I don't know, absolutely. But in today's society- in today's systems, in European nations, if Europeans left, the reasons why the others moved there or live there would likely become less and less. I highly doubt they would sustain the same quality of life, and innovation.

I didn't mention anything about how many people were here prior to colonization, but it wasn't as many as you seem to think. They were hunters and gathers a lot of them. Those types of societies didn't traditionally have high numbers. As for complex societies, I don't know. They may have created something awesome, in isolation, had westerners not colonized. But I think the likelihood of that is pretty low, actually (it was a perfect storm in ways). As in, well- I'm gauging awesome by, potential to go to Mars or something, and colonize there. Because colonization is how we survive. The more places we exist, the more chances we have to continue on. Europeans were just successful, due to circumstances that occurred. I don't take real pride in this. I see it in ways like one might look at a culture in a petri dish (not as in down on it, but trying to stay objective- although it would definitely be more complex than that), or this word I keep wanting to use it now, as it makes sense, but I see it as an ecosystem. Nobody advanced alone. And nobody made these things that benefited the group and others (less so, right away), in a vacuum. They depended on conditions that allowed it. Now I see things as these systems. I don't know why you think that ours is invulnerable. Could there be a case made that you are the racist/white supremacist? You think we're so awesome... That we can sustain anything, or, what was it? It's just "change"? Tell that to the bugs in the Indians that couldn't kill the bugs we brought with us. It's not like these are the only ways we as humans get sick, either.

Who does?

minorities. The media may blow this out of proportion, but it is there on a level. So often, too many white people, so white, this and that. It's just a constant attack, or calling into question, and it won't stop until we all fuck or kill each other.

Why do you always have to turn everything into focusing on 'white people'? White people are really not under the threat that you seem to imagine. White people are not victims here.

If you look at history over the last 500 years, you will see that the greatest threat to any society has been the arrival of 'white' people. I am not saying that white people should be ashamed or feel guilty, but I think its important to attain the correct perspective.



Yes, white people did let them live, about 10% of them at least. This figure is repeated in many sources I have read. How noble.

A similar thing happened to indigenous Australians. I'm not sure indigenous Australians really benefited from the printing press all that much.

You're kidding yourself if you think that technological advances are more important than the incredible moral and ethical degradation that occurred simultaneously. People like you often consider such technology, scientific, artistic advances as reasons why white people are superior but there should be a much broader criteria for judging a group. Much of the colonisation we saw a few hundred years back came with some of the greatest suffering in human history.

Plus, there is no point in claiming superiority because people that look like you did some cool things. You personally haven't invented anything worth a dogs fart, nor contributed anything artistic or of cuultural value, so until you do, be content with being a nobody like the rest of us.

You have no idea what I have done or what I haven't done.

I claim that for the way of life my people have come to enjoy, they are superior. You don't see us moving to Africa and the Middle East and Mexico in droves, to go live within their societies. You see the opposite, meanwhile our birthrates are so low that we can't keep up-- the replacement populations due to births and immigration- due to the outpouring of these places into our countries... yes, we are under threat. Germany has already publicly stated that it will be a "Muslim country" in like 50 years or so. The current generations being born in these countries are increasingly foreign, from a foreign culture, with foreign religion, and at that, they have provided nothing to us of value, as far as invention, for 100s of years.

Value... well, currently, I put my bets on China or Japan, or European nations (including seeded ones, culture dominant), to be able to colonize Mars, for instance. I think that survival-potential definitely adds something of value. I think electric heaters add something of value. I think antibiotics add something of value. I think vaccine and anti-virals add something of value. I think gene editing adds something of value. Computers. Airplanes. I also think the high-art does as well, as it is inspiring of ideas, most often transferred in our language, through the lens(es) of our culture(s), or near.

I am close to the ecosystem- to the cultural landscape that has brought these things about. Much closer than say a person from remote Amazon rainforest, or Africa. I'm not saying it is all exclusive to me, or that I own it, but there is something to it that cannot be separated from it's people, so easily, like you seem to believe. It just isn't that simple is all. Trends prove this (but I can't blanket things any way, really)- at least that it isn't as simply separated as some seem to think.

You love to attack with the angle as if I am having pride, or as if I think I am responsible for any of this. I just see it as the more workable option/better place to live, and people to be with. Not to idealize them, as if they aren't also like you said, some of the worst things to happen to some places, in respects- and still, as demonstrated by people like Trump, a threat to life potentially more than any other human group that can be half-way defined.

Why does it keep coming back to White people? Where else do you want to try to have your ideal society, where everyone shares? Feasibly (at all, larger scale, not a perfect little community that you get to choose who goes and they choose you too, that you can exclude the natural "racists" and Islamic Extremists from). Right now. Just touching base.

 

[consumer]

God i am sick of this white supremacist garbage that constantly gets posted here. It seems every thread turns to the poor white people.

 

[What 23]

I made my picture here. Did you make your picture? I like the picture I made because it's made of a pattern of numbers that fit together (if they come from a common 7-segment form), in the best possible way that I could find, this way, and built upon through that. I do like your picture, don't get me wrong. Mine also forms that form in some ways. But it isn't as if I have done nothing, or that what I have created or contributed will not continue on with a resonance into something greater. I am also not saying that "others" (people who I have identified as "others", often, in my posts) haven't created or contributed, or have not resonated, but it is complicated...

I don't believe independence is possible, also. Einstein didn't do shit alone. He built off others. As did others. Everyone uses tools for their inventions that someone else made. Everyone sits on a chair someone else made. It doesn't mean you should let that chair be taken from you, or your identity - your culture. At the same time, I can see how we error there, as well. I can see how sometimes the direction I seem to go can be self-defeating, even as I claim that's what yours is. We're struggling for balance.

I made my picture, and then I saw that it from a certain resolution looks like weaving/interlacing. Woven fibers. I like it.

How could high-art not be of value (and I am not claiming this is "high-art"- I'm using the term for what is known as it by others)? Wouldn't it be? We are probably wasting a lot of potential. Art is a form of communication. And it reflects life, and can enrich life, and can inspire people to be better, or more. I don't know, but it is valuable. Can be.

 

[spacejunk]

It's boring and it's bullshit.

But hey, let's be thankful for all that great superior american culture. I'm so thankful for everlasting war and gee whizz soda pop y'all.

 

[What 23]

I love these quality responses. Off to bed.

 

[swilow]

It's boring and it's bullshit.

Yep. I'm done with debating it. I mean, I appreciate the lengths what23 goes to but its the same thing each time.

 

[consumer]

Yep. I'm done with debating it. I mean, I appreciate the lengths what23 goes to but its the same thing each time.

Some of it is downright sickening. I see things written in this forum that are just off the planet not just by what23 but Wooderson and Ryan as well. It seems our main right protagonists are of the lunatic fringe of the right.

At least Droppers made some sense.

 

[What 23]

Yep. I'm done with debating it. I mean, I appreciate the lengths what23 goes to but its the same thing each time.

I lied, and each time you fail to address much of anything, or argue with reason. So much of what you (or some others) say seems to miss the mark a little, or you don't seem to understand something...or kind of put words into my mouth, or a perspective- You will put one up with your your [pre-loaded] take down. Again, this could in part be my fault. You can see I try to communicate. You could also simply be incapable in the current position of understanding some things that I might.

Others, many have never really tried, or their arguments are just weak, and easily defeated. If I do take them down, or provide a reasoned argument against what has been said, now it is just ignored (cowards).

When you have made me think, I have admitted this. I seem to be willing to move in more directions than you (some many people here), for this, but I admit, you have at times come a little, if only to say that multiculturalism as it comes from mass immigration isn't ideal, but you choose a different course from it, which is not a lot different than a faith-based one (you believe everything will be alright...or perhaps that you just need to get there by being as nice as possible, wherever that is- nice as in not "discriminating" based on nationality, religion, etc., in any way whatsoever...I can respect that, and think about it alot, actually, and alone go a lot further "left" than I'm allowed to here, but again, the way I choose here has a lot more world-historical backing to it, as in, patterns that have occurred and re-occurred throughout time, and trends that are easy to see, that concern for should be at least understandable).

Really, none of you have provided very good arguments. It's not an opinion. I would love to have someone help me expand. But, maybe you're just not capable. You can try, but I can probably argue your side better than you.

 

[swilow]

Sure thing man.

 

[consumer]

I bet you fall asleep at night thinking of my posts

I bet you are wrong....about this and pretty much everything you post.