Ken Kesey

[mr peabody]

I believe that with the advent of acid, we discovered a new way to think, and it has to do with piecing together new thoughts in your mind. What is it about it that scares people so deeply? It's because they're afraid there's more to reality than they have confronted, that there are doors they're afraid to go in. And they don't want us going in there either, because if we do we might learn something they don't know. And that puts us beyond their control.

 

[Xorkoth]

I wouldn't say LSD has created a new way to think, the ideas that come from the psychedelic experience have been put forth by others, in other times in history. But I do think it (and other psychedelics) can facilitate powerful realizations that veer dramatically away from the status quo. That is indeed why "they" are afraid of it. Psychedelics can facilitate free thinking and deviation from the norm. They can also facilitate delusion. A psychopath might use them to start a cult (Charles Manson for example). I really don't think they are a magic bullet by any means, like I used to. Not everyone should trip, and not everyone is going to arrive somewhere good if they do. But it's exciting that research is finally resuming on using them for mental health and understanding. I'm happy about that.

Psychedelics have certainly helped me a whole lot. There is a lot of potential for good, if they're used as a tool in appropriate conditions and with appropriate understanding.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Out of all the counter-culture or "drug figures" in the arts, I think Ken Kesey is one of my favorite ones. His philosophy in regards to drugs and drug use always seemed a lot more in line with my own (especially compared to other people who were associated with psychedelics like Leary or McKenna etc.)

(disclaimer: purely based on his persona in "The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test". We were assigned to read that book in school once, and, while I didn't much care for the book itself, Kesey came across as an eccentric but charismatic character...basically just like a guy who liked to get high, working class, intelligent...maybe did some questionable things from time to time but came across as ultimately a smart compassionate dude who's worldview I remember being sympathetic towards. I love the account of the encounter between the Merry Pranksters and the Timothy Leary/Ram Dass faction of psychedelia)

 

[420Otaku69]

"People don't want other people to get high, because if you get high, you might see the falsity of the fabric of the society we live in." -Ken Kesey

 

[noone1]

He was a fascinating character but if you study him at his core it proves psychedelics don't really change who you are essentially. He still naturally gravitated towards being the alpha jock leader of the group.

 

[socko]

I think he attributes too much power to LSD. There are lots of things that change the way you think and see reality besides LSD, and they do it more powerfully than drugs.

IMO, it affects people in two different ways, depending on their personality. First, for the average person who takes it, they enjoy the colors and it makes them laugh a lot. Second, for the deep thinker who takes it, they have an existential crises. They think about the meaing of life and what they're doing here.

It's not they it gives anybody a profoundly new way of seeing reality. I mean it does, but it's not in a profound way. There are many ways you can change the way you see reality other thtan LSD.

LSD can do it in a way like you change when you have a deep conversation. The way it affects you is like reading a book or seeing a psychiastrist for 6 months. Both reading a book and seeing a therapist affect how you see reality and think, but the they do it in a controlled way. If it were about controlling how we see reality, they would ban books.

LSD, because of its legal status, does it in an uncontrolled and uninformed way.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Francis Crick discovered DNA's double-helix structure while tripping. That's a pretty powerful example of new thought on LSD. There are plenty more too.

Kesey was kinda great. And kinda turned into an asshole too the older he got. Was when I saw him speak a few years ago anyway. That said, I'll always have a soft spot for him.

 

[socko]

I had never heard the tripping story about Francis Crick. If not Crick, it was on the verge of discovery by somebody else. Are you sure you mean the structure of DNA? I know it had been invented before then, but was LSD in use at the time? YOu could mean the invention of PCR which was done by Kerry Mullis and his lab. Mullis was an avid fan of psychedelics, and he did a lot of his thinking and work while under the influence.
I don't deny that it can make you brainstorm and think about things. But it's not the only way to access new ways of thinking about new things, and the way LSD does it is not as deep as people give it credit.

 

[Xorkoth]

Surprised you never heard of the Francis Crick/LSD/DNA thing, we get people mentioning it in PD quite frequently. I'd say that psychedelics certainly help to facilitate new connections between concepts, although those connections are not always valid so you need to be critical about it later. I have also (as described below) had one (more than one actually) experience that facilitated something extremely profound about the nature of things that was entirely new to me. Changed my entire life over time, among the deepest and most profound experiences of my life. I agree people can get fooled by psychedelics as well but there is a core/breakthrough sort of experience that some people have that is, IMO, something of potentially very high value because it allows a peek into something that most people in western civilization don't ever get a glimpse of.

Francis Crick discovered DNA's double-helix structure while tripping.

Actually that's a common semi-myth, he said that LSD experiences inspired him to visualize it, and then the discovery was made with subsequent research, it wasn't like he proved it while on LSD. But yeah, I remember the first time I tripped (mushrooms), I had the classic breakthrough, life-changing experience. During it, I was having these visions of zooming into molecules, atoms, the smaller and smaller parts, until it looked like stars and planets in a vast empty space, and zooming out in the scale of the universe until it looked like the subatomic structure did. I had never had any thoughts like that before and it staggered me. It was before I had even learned that in fact on the atomic scale, it's nearly all empty space (because it certainly doesn't seem that way, from our perspective).

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I had never heard the tripping story about Francis Crick. If not Crick, it was on the verge of discovery by somebody else. Are you sure you mean the structure of DNA? I know it had been invented before then, but was LSD in use at the time? YOu could mean the invention of PCR which was done by Kerry Mullis and his lab. Mullis was an avid fan of psychedelics, and he did a lot of his thinking and work while under the influence.

Both. Double-helix (Crick) and PCR (Mullis).

 

[socko]

Ok, I will agree that the drugs contributed, but I don't know how necessary they were. Mullis and Crick were both brilliant and worked hard. And they both had brilliant and hard working people working with thm who made key contributions to the discoveries and whithout them, the discovieres would have been made by other labs.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Actually that's a common semi-myth, he said that LSD experiences inspired him to visualize it, and then the discovery was made with subsequent research, it wasn't like he proved it while on LSD.

Yes the visualization came first. If you want or think he could have full-scale proved it on LSD you're a harsher man than I. But we're on the same page.

 

[socko]

Actually that's a common semi-myth, he said that LSD experiences inspired him to visualize it, and then the discovery was made with subsequent research, it wasn't like he proved it while on LSD. But yeah, I remember the first time I tripped (mushrooms), I had the classic breakthrough, life-changing experience. During it, I was having these visions of zooming into molecules, atoms, the smaller and smaller parts, until it looked like stars and planets in a vast empty space, and zooming out in the scale of the universe until it looked like the subatomic structure did. I had never had any thoughts like that before and it staggered me. It was before I had even learned that in fact on the atomic scale, it's nearly all empty space (because it certainly doesn't seem that way, from our perspective).

The mushroom fractals are another example of what I mean. Some people who get migraines see them as part of the visual aura that occurs before and during (me) the migraine. The migraine affects the same part of the brain simillarly to the way LSD does with respect to visuals. And some people who suffer from the visual disorder called Persistent Snow Disorder see those things without ever having taken the drugs.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Francis Crick discovered DNA's double-helix structure while tripping.

That's a bit of a misconception. He had been working on the research for a long time already, and was probably thinking about it a lot and close to getting there. LSD and other psychedelics are great tools for enhancing conceptual thinking, so I don't doubt that it played its role in helping him refine the concept; or in other words, help build a reasonable model based on his research, which turned out to be correct. But it's not like he took LSD and then suddenly the double helix appeared in front of his eyes. He did the work, LSD just probably helped him put some of the pieces together.

 

[Xorkoth]

...Is there an echo in here?

...here?

...here?

 

[Tranced]

Out of all the counter-culture or "drug figures" in the arts, I think Ken Kesey is one of my favorite ones. His philosophy in regards to drugs and drug use always seemed a lot more in line with my own (especially compared to other people who were associated with psychedelics like Leary or McKenna etc.)

(disclaimer: purely based on his persona in "The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test". We were assigned to read that book in school once, and, while I didn't much care for the book itself, Kesey came across as an eccentric but charismatic character...basically just like a guy who liked to get high, working class, intelligent...maybe did some questionable things from time to time but came across as ultimately a smart compassionate dude who's worldview I remember being sympathetic towards. I love the account of the encounter between the Merry Pranksters and the Timothy Leary/Ram Dass faction of psychedelia)

Yip, I agree with you, and my opinion is also based upon "The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test". I love Neal Cassady in those books, but I've heard he wasn't depicted particularly correctly (although maybe he was, and it was just a little close to the bone).

This is a good read for anybody who's missed it, mentions quite a bit on both of them.

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=de...thday-neal-cassid_113941114071504795.html?m=0

I love this from Kesey on Cassady; I had no idea who they were before I read the above link and in particular the following quote, but it made me buy/read the book.

Ken Kesey:

This was the avatar. Cassady. One of the great failures of all time. I mean, he failed big. But everyone who touched him was influenced by him. Allen Ginsberg and William Burroughs and Jack Kerouac and me and Bill Graham. Cassady was Bill's nemesis. I mean, Neal could eat three Bill Grahams with a small glass of sauterne on the side to wash him down. This was a guy who was off the scale...He didn't want to deal with us so he got out in the street and pretended to be looking for something. As he went by, Cassady said, "There's Bill Graham out there, checking the tire treads to see if one of them picked up a nickel. Bill heard him. He flushed. But he couldn't take Cassady on. No one could. He could run circles around anyone with words. Bill came over and asked him why he had said this. Neal said, "'Cause I'm concerned about your soul, Bill." Bill said, "This is just show business, Neal." Neal said, "This is soul business, Bill." Not many people do what Cassady used to call the inside straight. He went for the inside straight all the time. Like Zarathustra or Lao-tzu, who was able to make that Zen koan maneuver and expose where you were.

 

[belligerent drunk]

...Is there an echo in here?

...here?

...here?

Yeah, sorry for repeating what you said, lol.

 

[Foreigner]

LSD is powerful and useful, but it's not a holy grail. It's good to remold your internal structures and make them more flexible. If you do LSD too often, you will start to lose touch with reality. It's a balance between structure vs. plasticity.

I love acid but I went through periods where I did it way too much, to my detriment. Don't destroy your ego until you know what you're destroying.

 

[noone1]

I love this from Kesey on Cassady; I had no idea who they were before I read the above link and in particular the following quote, but it made me buy/read the book.

Ken Kesey:

I was going to post this in the enlightenment thread about the opposite of enlightenment but now I'll post it here since you mentioned Cassady. There's a short story collection called "Demon Box" where Kesey wrote about the Merry Pranksters w/Neal meeting gestalt psychotherapist Fritz Perls. To sum up his teachings quickly Perls advocated self inquiry; focusing on the now same as psychedelics and spirituality point to.

When Perls met Cassady at first he is awed like everyone else is who meets him, this is a totally free spirit who is completely in the now and free of ego. But as he observes Neal a little more he presses Kesey, is Cassady on any drugs?--well yeah--he's on a lot of acid and speed. Perls then hypothesis... what if this is a man who is not free of ego, but the opposite? the little man inside his head has set up shop and completely taken over. The opposite of enlightenment.

Perls passes it off as a joke in the end "just kidding" but I think he was right. Cassady used to be one of my inspirations. But in the end as I grow up I see what he really was, a bi polar speed freak who was extremely charismatic and used people for his own benefit. Like Hunter S. Thompson. They where one of a kind and it's okay to romanticize the aspects of living life to the fullest, especially when you're young, but not of completely ignoring empathy.

 

[socko]

I was going to post this in the enlightenment thread about the opposite of enlightenment but now I'll post it here since you mentioned Cassady. There's a short story collection called "Demon Box" where Kesey wrote about the Merry Pranksters w/Neal meeting gestalt psychotherapist Fritz Perls. To sum up his teachings quickly Perls advocated self inquiry; focusing on the now same as psychedelics and spirituality point to.

When Perls met Cassady at first he is awed like everyone else is who meets him, this is a totally free spirit who is completely in the now and free of ego. But as he observes Neal a little more he presses Kesey, is Cassady on any drugs?--well yeah--he's on a lot of acid and speed. Perls then hypothesis... what if this is a man who is not free of ego, but the opposite? the little man inside his head has set up shop and completely taken over. The opposite of enlightenment.

Perls passes it off as a joke in the end "just kidding" but I think he was right. Cassady used to be one of my inspirations. But in the end as I grow up I see what he really was, a bi polar speed freak who was extremely charismatic and used people for his own benefit. Like Hunter S. Thompson. They where one of a kind and it's okay to romanticize the aspects of living life to the fullest, especially when you're young, but not of completely ignoring empathy.

I get the impression that was the case with a lot of the LSD promoters, not just Kesey. Timothy Leary was also an egomaniac who didn't come across as having empathy.

Is there something about LSD that, if you take it enough, it turns everybody into the same person, in this case, an egomaniac?