2016 American Presidential Campaign

[Jabberwocky]

Ryan have you read any of the latest leaked Clinton foundation emails/wallstreet speech transcripts. We need to get a thread started. I've been reading them on my phone for the last hour off wiki leaks links. Straight up going from space wars/ aliens?? calling for open hemispherical free trade, open borders, etc.

I don't care what your political affiliation is, they are a good read lol

One of my faves is where half of the voting bloc is referred to as functional illiterates lol. It's getting buried though at least BBC is reporting it. I wonder if the people outraged by the 05 tape were outraged that billy put a cigar in an interns cooch and hillary attacked her

If I was on food stamps, I'd vote Democratic.

Republicans act like poverty is some sort of moral failing which should be criminalized. Plus there's the whole socioeconomic factor - poverty tends to disproportionately affect minorities, and Republicans aren't really a minority-friendly party.

There is a difference between falling on hard times and being lazy & abusing the system. Republicans aren't minority friendly because a lot of minorities have an entitlement issue and blame the white man for everything that's wrong with their life.
If america was solid red, (with the exception of drug prohibition, abortion, and overseas meddling) we would be much safer, stronger economically, and everybody would know who their daddies are.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

So after the likely Trump crash & burn this election cycle, and the fact that a mainstream moderate candidate would have had a pretty good shot at taking the election from Hillary Clinton, do you expect the Republicans are going to change the convention rules to reduce the chance of a future Trumpish candidate winning the nomination?

The Democrats created their superdelegates after Humphrey won their nomination in 1968 and crashed and burned in the presidential election.

I don't think tea partiers would like the Republican superdelegate idea, but the conventional Republicans might. Could deepen the split between the two wings of the party.

 

[Jabberwocky]

%)

 

[Snake_Eyes]

I'm so exited for the debate tonight, I can't wait to watch Donald squirm. :D

 

[What 23]

Trump was married and had a 3 month pregnant wife when he said this. He's the candidate that's running a "family values" centered campaign so yes it is a big deal. I know you've already made up your mind but to many people who are just holding their nose and voting for him this matters a lot.

Also what's pretty funny is all these people that bitch about SJW and safe spaces and triggers have the thinnest skin possible, Trump included. I can't think of anything more anti first amendment than wanting to turn the entire nation into a giant safe space for white "patriots" (white supremacists)

I get that about the "safe space" and have noted it. I don't often attack SJWs the same way many do. I do find them to often be a bit too debased.

As far as White Supremacists, or simply any white man that would like their society to reflect the values they were brought up with, and their culture survive/their way of life and people-- You have to understand that if the modern world was brought about by the organization and strength of the Aboriginal Australian culture, for example, someone in that group would have a strong, established identity, and mass "multiculturalism" would surely be a source of unease for them. You're living in a white man's world, in many respects. Western civilization. Modern scientific method. Human rights. Liberal values. No I don't and neither do many white men take personal pride or claim that I went to the moon and I built rockets, or fought for human rights, or am responsible for all the achievements (but go ahead and shame me for what we do?), but it came out of this culture that I'm really close to. I inherited it. It's my inheritance, and more than that, it's MY children's, not the untold numbers of people living in the third world that want to come, and that may replace us as the majority group, and I do have an interest in what happens regarding this-- They're not familiar and not as certain (and it breaks continuity), and I do feel my stability and security threatened, and so do many other people who belong to the "identity" that spread itself all over.

I'm not quite making my point, but in-group preference and desire for harmony of spirit and familiarity doesn't equate to hate. This exchange, and "multiculturalism"/"diversity" isn't necessarily positive for white people. I can post links to scientific observations if you would like. Diversity is a hurdle, not just something that is without inherent problems.

This being said, don't assume what I'm advocating, beyond a call for understanding of the evil white people (and the situation), who just feel their boundaries are threatened. That they come from the majority identity and that people which brought about the modern age, more or less, they have a strong identity. They inherited it. They want to protect it. This doesn't mean it's conscious, or all justified, but certainly understandable.

This is also not about empathy for people with brown skin, if I have it or not, or if I understand how badly they were treated by my ancestors (and somehow "repayment" is deserved that would cost something absolutely). And perhaps out of step, but I thought of it while I was writing...but it isn't necessarily positive for my group (speaking as a "white" person), when anyone with non-white features and brown skin, has some kind of protected status...

 

[What 23]

Often the whole attack on white people seems to be an attack by the have-nots or those that find its a safe position to gain social brownie points (that too), on the haves. I get that, but the "haves" do have interest in keeping what they have. Certain policies aren't promoting this. Certain social behaviors aren't promoting this. Just chaos.

I am for making more people "have", but it must be done in a way that it doesn't take away from MY offspring. Currently policy does threaten this.

As for Trump, I am deeply offended by his treating of marriage as nothing. Still, very surprisingly, I don't see him as dangerous as Hillary (surprisingly, because she's doing all she can to appear 'safe'). I could be wrong.

 

[JessFR]

Often the whole attack on white people seems to be an attack by the have-nots or those that find its a safe position to gain social brownie points (that too), on the haves. I get that, but the "haves" do have interest in keeping what they have. Certain policies aren't promoting this. Certain social behaviors aren't promoting this. Just chaos.

I am for making more people "have", but it must be done in a way that it doesn't take away from MY offspring. Currently policy does threaten this.

As for Trump, I am deeply offended by his treating of marriage as nothing. Still, very surprisingly, I don't see him as dangerous as Hillary (surprisingly, because she's doing all she can to appear 'safe'). I could be wrong.

They're both horrible awful people and the thought that no matter what, one of them will become the next president of my country makes me want to cry about how far we've lost our way. I'll never be one of those people who say they've given up and just want to leave and go to another, better country and give up on the united states. I really believe in the words and ideals that formed the foundation of this country, and I've yet to see another country that speaks to my core beliefs the same way in it's founding documents or words or intentions. But it is clearly evident to anyone with eyes that the United States of America has utterly failed to fully live up to those ideals, again and again.

I mean for fucks sake, someone can correct my if my memory of american history fails me here, but I seem to recall the passing of the sedition act which directly contravened the first amendment was signed off on by president john adams, the second president of the united states. The American people, us, we and the constitution, have been betrayed by our leaders since the formation of the union itself.

While I think there is much this country has done and continues to do to be proud of. It's hard not to feel so supremely disappointed thay such an inspirational system of government has so utterly failed to resist the infection that is the corruption and perversion that our apathy, our indifference, our ignorance and our incompetence as a people has allowed to take root and spread throughout every part of the system.

In many ways I don't even think our representatives in the capital or the white house are in control of it either. Not really. It control's them. And who really does control it? My personal pet theory... Nobody does. We all just try to make do within the system to use it to our advantage. All of us from the junkie on the street to the president. Nobody cares to do anything about the problem because we're too preoccupied trying to use it to our advantage.

Regardless of if I'm right or wrong about that though. Something is very very wrong in the system. When these two are the best our country has to offer? That either of these two have made it as far as they have.... Very soon one of them will be taking an oath to preserve protect and defend the constitution, from all enemies foreign and domestic. And that promise could not be more hollow from either of them. Both care only for their own interests. They won't be the first, far from it. But they are to me one of the most transparent.

I can't say I fully believe in god, I don't really know, and I don't think we should consider ourselves one nation under god. But we sure could use a miracle right now IMO.

EDIT: Oh btw What 23, I dunno if you were speaking only in say American terms... But globally we (whites) are not the majority identity. I'm very sure we're not the second largest either. Might be third.

As for our contributions to the modern age. I think your problem is that you see all of this in terms of race to begin with. We're all people and we all should be considered equally deserving. With equal rights. That's the kind of America I believe in and want. Everyone's gotta stop seeing everything in terms of race and color. It all divides us over nothing worth being divided over.

 

[What 23]

I'm speaking mainly about Western Europe, the U.S., Canada, Australia, etc. Race is just a very simplistic way of categorizing, but certainly, you must be able to entertain the idea that being open to and making favor to mass immigration from the third world could upset stability, in multiple respects, if done incorrectly. It's about survival, and planning around/with facts of of nature.

Again I'm aware that we are the minority. We used to be about 30% of the world's population (around 1900 I think), and now, about 5-7 percent, just pulling numbers out of the air that seem close to what I remember. But, we used to be 90% of the population here in the U.S., and 99%+ in the U.K., Germany, etc. In every single successful western nation, we are now becoming minorities (or well on the way- or not the "majority").

I am for treating each human as individual, and respectfully, and given equal opportunities to thrive. I'm for helping each other. I'm even for helping my "enemies", to make them stronger in the right ways, and to hopefully make a friend (make them less likely to attack me or be desperate). But some individuals belong to groups, unfortunately, that aren't as willing to work with other groups, and simply identity as separate can be an issue, multiple ways (and this does happen, no matter what we idealize now).

Something you said resonated- about how our government is failing us. But, that also, it is as if they don't have any control of it. That they too are controlled by it... We just need someone who knows how to put on the brakes. Or learn how to ski. Right now we're all just being dragged/falling, or something. Not just speaking as if to blame "one side", or other people. We need a leader.

edit: I want to add that Trump is not an accident. The globalist policies, the mass immigration, the selling out, the lack of planning, and so many mistakes on how things are being conducted, are asking for it. In so many ways, out policies are detached from logic, unless, again, whoever is in control is going for some kind of ends justify the means- approach. Trump is understandable- his many supporters, most of them white, have felt threatened, rightfully- in ways, and as a group have been shamed into silence for a long time. The way things have been going, are asking for "Trump" (and his Alt-Right supporters)...

Sometimes I consider that even if Trump isn't elected, his support base, and their issues, won't be simply go away. A Trump Presidency right now could be like lancing a boil in itself... Or letting something "sigh" (and gain some perspective on what we're actually dealing with). Which could be better than continuing to shame things. I highly doubt he's "literally fucking Hitler". What he stands for happens to resonate with white people, but that doesn't mean that a black guy or a Mexican or Japanese person wouldn't have reasoning to support Trump, and his "putting on the brakes" of [the certain parts of, or effects of] globalization...

 

[What 23]

This is somewhat relevant, at least. This guy uses humor to make his points, and I rather enjoy much of his work (not to say anyone is "perfect").

 

[MisterNotSoClean]

I really wish there was a normal people party... You down with NPP... Yeah you know me.

But seriously, I'm only 28 and as young and dumb as I am, even I know that both nominees are a joke. I truly don't even know who to vote for.

I listen to AM talk radio as the music on the most airwaves is shit. So in other words... a lot of conservative talk radio.

WAIT!!!! DON'T HATE ME YET!!!

I do consider myself republican conservative... (but Im honestly not sure anymore) up to the fanatical religious beliefs they use to justify their positions. Mostly up to that point I pretty much fall in line... I like me some 2nd ammendment as I grew up in BFE Texas. I believe immigration needs to be more controlled but more so reformed in way to better control it... no... I don't want a wall... that's just silly. I do believe the constitution should be read fairly plainly and adhered to as those guys who wrote it were fucking awesome. More awesome than anyone I know. I'm with them. Also, I am definitely fiscally conservative but in a manner that most financial aspects of government spending just need reform to achieve fiscal responsibility... And I believe the government as a whole is there to protect those constitutional rights without infringing on the rights of any of its citizens...

And this is where I get lost on the conservative Republican side...

They claim to want limited government in people's lives yet scream that we should ban abortion, gay marriage, and have a tendency to use their biblical views as a pedestal to have a "moral high ground" and enforce as such. I also have become to believe that their staunch belief has plays a role in unwillingness to help people in poverty as it seems they lump them all together as " you made your bed, now you sleep in it"

I'm just so confused... especially living in Texas... I'm afraid if I swing left of center... I may no longer be able to use the boys bathroom...

Someone help my confused brain please?

 

[alasdairm]

pretty predictable debate so far.

you may dislike hillary but at least when she's asked about a problem she talks about what she wants to do to address it and how she's going to do it. she has a plan.

trump's answer to everything is "oh, we're going to do tremendously on that issue". so little substance.

alasdair

 

[cj]

That was a shit show from the jump. Hillary didn't hurt herself and Donald didn't help himself. Status quo will stand which means Hillary is pulling away.

 

[alasdairm]

he behaves like a toddler. he gets bent out of shape when she goes over by 20 seconds and yet he spends the whole night talking over hillary and the moderators and interrupting her with childish jabs.

alasdair

 

[Droppersneck]

Trump destroyed her by calling out her corrupt dealings. MAGA

 

[alasdairm]

lol. ok.

he can barely construct a coherent sentence at this point. he talked a lot and said nothing.

it's interesting that this issue of private position vs. public position came up at this debate. in his interview on meet the press, rudy giuliani used this idea to try to attack clinton but it absolutely blew up in his face when chuck todd turned giuliani's own words on trump.

giuliani knew he had shot himself in the foot and it was obvious he knew todd had made a very effective point: Chuck Todd Served Rudy Giuliani a Cold, Hard Dish of the Truth

alasdair

 

[spacejunk]

he behaves like a toddler. he gets bent out of shape when she goes over by 20 seconds and yet he spends the whole night talking over hillary and the moderators and interrupting her with childish jabs.

This.
The rumours about his use of cocaine don't seem at all far-fetched to me. His rude petulance is unbelievable for a grown adult - no matter how well known he is for being an egotistical brat.

Just imagine if Clinton (or any other female candidate) behaved like him.
He's a horrifying joke.
And i'm no Clinton fan, either. But this is a very bleak election campaign.

 

[JessFR]

I hate both candidates as I said and have no loyalty to either party.

Clinton won. Even I thought she came off as charismatic in this debate, I didn't last one. I think she does well in the town hall format. I still hate her and don't want her as president, but credit where it's due, she came off as far more like a likable mature adult in this debate. Better performance than her last one.

Trump did substantially worse in this debate, and this is one of the few debates I've seen where I feel one person definitively and decisively won. And it was Clinton. Either trumps advisors need firing or he needs to start listening to them. His behavior was childish. Even if he was right about the moderators letting Clinton get more time, and I don't think he was from my observation. that was not how you handle it. Even if you're right, you can't go crying about being picked on while also talking to Clinton the way he did. Saying shed be in jail and shit, again even if you think he's right. If you're one of those people who want him to win, it wasn't smart strategically. He's acting like he still seeking the Republican nomination. That shit can win him the nomination but not the presidency. He's got his supports in the bag, but I think maybe he thinks that's all he needs to win the white house and I think he's wrong. He could win but not the way he's playing the game currently. Women are half the vote and he has a problem with female voters. Namely that so many of us hate him. And attacking a woman while supposedly defending his opinion of women isn't smart. He needed to go after her politically. Maybe that's what he was going for but it came off as going after her personally. He came off as a bully and an asshole. Neither entirely obeyed the time limits, and that's normal no candidate does. But he can't be doing it far more noticably than her, and he was. At a few points it almost seemed like he was gonna storm off or that the debate might collapse. It's just not smart. He seems to me like a man who's not used to and actually can't handle not being in total control all the time, and that is not a quality I think makes a good leader. As president he will have to negotiate on equal footing with other world leaders and he's not coming across to me as a man who can get the job done in America's interests. Clinton could, she's clearly intelligent, just a shame I think her interests are no different in her mind from americas interests.

Hillary won the debate IMO. I'd call it something of a toss up last debate but this one he fucked it up. Clinton came off calm and respectful and charasmatic while he seemed like a bully and a baby whining over the moderator's not being fair.

I still dislike them both and would much prefer neither became president.

But trump actually did so poorly this debate that for a moment I actually wanted to vote for Clinton just so he is more likely to lose. And I'm fairly moderate in this sense and so are the people he needs to win over to get the presidency. And his behavior won't appeal to that group.

The last thing trump needs right now is to look like he has a problem with women, or that he is a bully or typical boss from hell. He looked exactly like the latter of those two, and as for the former, he didn't exactly make things worse with the women vote, but he utterly failed to make it any better at every chance. A good leader needs to be able to admit when they're wrong. Clinton actually did something along those lines as I recall at one point. Only mildly but it's still a positive. Trump on the other hand seems like he's incapable of admitting he was ever wrong about anything. Even when it's indefensible. He should have just cone right out and said he was sorry, that he was taken out of context but that nevertheless he sees how it sounds and is sorry for any and all offence to the American people. He can call it locker room banter, he may even be right about it, but being right doesn't make it the right move.

And he made all the wrong moves from what I saw, right or wrong.

 

[LandsUnknown]

Trump has endorsed Putin (who has a completely un-American leadership style), he has committed fraud with Trump University and failure to pay his construction workers, he has dodged taxes for years, and he has committed sexual assault in his admissions. Arguably, he should be the one locked up not her. Frankly, if he did these things and was a person without wealth (like the majority of Americans), he probably would be in jail. I would agree with those that said he should leave the race, as the thought of a rapist and con artist in office frankly scares the hell out of me.

Now, I agree that Hillary isn't the greatest candidate either. However, her email blunder was just that, a blunder. It wasn't done with malice, it was simply a mistake. I also don't fully trust her either, as I don't really have trust in any politicians. They're all potentially corrupt IMO, but I see no real reason to mistrust her more than any other person that has ran for office.

 

[neversickanymore]

This election is one of the biggest shit shows I have ever seen.

So now trump has put his foot in his mouth so significantly that he is being slammed by his own party and they want him off the ticket. Fkn republicans also vomiting love for the working and "middle" class.. What a silly joke.

And then we are looking at flappen Hillary as our eventual leader.. What an awful horror this whole thing is. Fkn disgrace. God awful;

 

[JessFR]

Trump tried hard to use the email scandal against her, but he overplayed that card. He took every chance to seem as disappointed and outraged as possible, but that totally falls flat unless what he's going after is actually that outragous. And clintons email scandal just isn't enough to warrant his behavior, it makes it look fake. Which is cause it is fake, politicians do it all the time, the problem isn't that it's fake the problem is that it looked fake.

Trumps comments about women wouldnt be as bad as it is if he didn't already have an image problem with women voters. And fair or not, Clinton being a woman can convincingly seem much more outraged about it and have it seem warrented. But for the most part she didn't. She used it but didn't act like it surprised her. That was smart. It was convincing and it was clear she was trying to make herself come across as relatable and "one of us". Now she isn't of course, but that's what she was going for, and mostly succeeded.

Clinton is a very good politician, which is part of why I neither like or trust her. Trump ironically comes off as more genuine, the problem is he seems like a genuine arrogant bully.

Also, he tried to deflect any negativity towards him by ignoring it and attacking her. Attack is the best form of defense as they say. Except it wasn't in this case. Not with Clinton engaging in the negatives brought up about her. You can't do such transparent dodging unless your opponent does too.

Clinton is playing it very well for the opponent she has. At this rate she could quite easily win and it will mostly be trumps fault. Trump would have advisors too like Clinton, but I think he might really think he's smart enough not to need them.

Trumps only good move was to say something nice about Clinton at the end of the debate. If he had used that kind of attitude the whole debate he would have faired a lot better.

Trump already has the nomination. He needs to seem like he respects, but doesn't agree with Clinton. And that while shes a good politician, he's the better president. That would help defuse a lot of the feelings that trumps a misogynist. He needs to be attacking her as a politician. And you don't do that by acting like, were you in charge, youd have them thrown in jail.

He played a very good game to get to the nomination. But the battle for the white house is a very different fight and he's making lots of serious strategic mistakes. His hardcore supporters won't see it of course because the mistakes he's making is that he's till behaving as if their support is what he's after. He already has their support. He needs to get the fence sitters now and Clinton is going after them smart. Trump doesn't seem to think he needs them. Time will tell. But this is the first time id be prepared to make a bet on who will win the presidency, and my money is on Clinton.

4 more years of the same. Alas.