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So many people I know and respect are smug know-it-all atheists...

I see your point. I have thought about it before, family being the preventative, in my case that is not the ONLY reason. I don't WANT to kill myself, I want everything to be okay.

But family does play a large part. Maybe my feelings are transient, but only so far due to depression.

Sometimes okay and sometimes I wish I could die and it all be over with, but when the rationality kicks in I understand why I won't do it.

Because I know I don't want to. It is just up my sleeve.

And by no means do I romanticize menta illness or death.

But for lot of people, family does not stop the decision.
 
You keep forgetting this is just for the sake of discussion. Maybe you know what's best for you or maybe you don't and you're just pretending - either way I have no intention of actually intervening in your private affairs so stop basing your arguments on that.

I agree that we should try to be humble when talking about these subjects, but it's kind of hard to do that when in nearly all of your posts here you've been romanticizing death, which is arguably our ultimate shortcoming. My motives for accepting or rejecting what you say go beyond taboos or superstition. I'm trying to build something for myself and you're sitting there as if I'm a catholic priest trying to get you hanged for blasphemy because "OMG YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT ITS LIKE OK?!" Please lets just move on.

Wtf, If i'm romanticizing death you're romanticizing life and it's benefits. You're overly sensitive to my posts, to me you're just another poster I'm responding to. I carry no particular grudge against you. I'm discussing this just like you are. I never remember saying you had the power to interfere in MY choices because I'm not giving away that power. Others who may not be secure do just that. I think I stated that no one (not you in particular) know what it's like for another. I'm not just posting here for your benefit or pointed toward you in particular. So yeah lets move on.
 
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I see your point. I have thought about it before, family being the preventative, in my case that is not the ONLY reason.

It really doesn't matter what you choose as reasons to stay or go. As long as they are valid reasons for you then it's part of the control you have over your own life and death. I can see not wanting to hurt someone as a valid reason to not commit suicide as long as it's your reason, your choice and you accept the consequences of your actions. Each person sets their own criteria for their own life and death. Or should in a reasonable world.
 
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Don't you agree that hesitating to kill yourself because of how it will affect others is inconsistent with the view that we deserve to have control over our own death? .

Bit of a strawman really, no-one is really saying that. I think that any reason to avoid suicide is valid. I also think that suicide itself is valid. I think you have a right to live your life in your own way; I think you therefore have the right to choose your death. Not that I wouldn't try to talk any person out of suicide because I have; I do not think there are many times when suicide is the only option- I tend to think of suicide as a poor decision most of the time. All it does is accelerate inevitable oblivion by a very short sum of years. But when life is suffering, a short span of time may as well be eternity.

Do you think that suicide is selfish? What is your reason for being so evidently opposed to it as the mere mention of it seems to actually offend you...
 
Don't you agree that hesitating to kill yourself because of how it will affect others is inconsistent with the view that we deserve to have control over our own death?

No. You're assuming suicide is a totally selfish choice. A lot of people consider how it would affect others and they set certain plans into motion for post mortem. Sometimes suicide is being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
 
This seems so reasonable to me. I'm so blown away that most of humanity does not see suicide as a gift. There is so little that we have control of in life and the facts are that life can be truly painful. To have the choice to leave a bad or hopeless situation or for any reason really seems wonderful to me. I guess it's really frightening to many people that we are mortal and impermanent, so frightening that they feel the need to condemn suicide for others. Why else would one care how another chooses to live their own life? I mean it is our own life right? Isn't that supposed to be what freedom is all about and why we consider freedom such a valuable ideal? It's one of the great gifts to mankind yet most see it as an abomination. I will never understand most humans.

Agreed! I'd say that an awareness of suicide is useful. An inescapable situation is usually worse than one with a way out built in, and we have it. Its pure denial to pretend otherwise. This doesn't mean that suicide is neccesarily desirable. Its just a good thing to know. You can escape your pain if you need to.

Still, I would always offer some contrary opinion to someone who mentioned that they were planning suicide. Only because it is such a momentous decision that requires thinking through in great depth.

I would say that, by the time I am older and even more decrepit and base than I currently am (is that possible omg), euthanasia will be broadly legal. I do not doubt that, in the end, that is how I will die my one death. And this gives me immense hope. It reduces my fear of dying.

BTW I really enjoy many of your posts. I'm glad you're here.

Thanks mate :). And I you...<3
 
Agree. Some people here think that I believe everyone should commit suicide. Far from it. If I'm enjoying life then I say live it out. But in all honesty I do admit to being an antinatalist for various reasons but that's a subject for another topic. Personally I'm appalled that suicide is condemned to the extent it is. Especially by Christianity. And btw as I've mentioned there is nowhere in the Christian Bible that prohibits suicided in any fashion. This has been done by priests and theologians on some personal agenda. I've read some very interesting speculation on why that has been done but that's also another topic. The reason I seem to be such a cheerleader for suicide here and in other forums on this site is that I've seen and experienced some really severe suffering first hand. To insist someone live out a life under such conditions breaks my heart. It also breaks my heart and leads me to despair that many seem not to care about that in the least. I'm not one to go in for vengeance or revenge because that's always counterproductive in my book but I think it might be useful for those who condemn suicide in others to get a taste for themselves what those people are actually going through.
 
I don't know man, it seems from your choice of language that you do have strong feelings or judgments about suicide ("it's a lie to mask your own failure", for example). I don't get why you are so aggressive/confrontational about stuff so much of the time. It's possible to converse and even disagree without resorting to sarcasm, personal attacks, and veiled insults.
 
It's not a strawman lol, just go back and read some of CT's posts.

Anyway, I'm not really offended by suicide nor do I think it's selfish. If anything, I think it's useless. It's not the best analogy, but imagine life was a videogame you were forced to play: don't you think it makes more sense to overcome the learning curve and come out on the otherside knowing more and feeling better than before? Like as much as you hit the respawn key, you're not going to progress unless you take the initiative to buckle up and face the fire.



I'm not assuming anything. In fact it was more like a rhetorical question to demonstrate how ridiculous this whole conversation is. Idk maybe it's comforting to think that you have the freedom of killing yourself, but deep inside I'm sure everyone knows that's only a lie to mask your own failure.



Oh wow, so we're back on square one. Amazing!


The analogy. If the game is painful and you only play it once without a free play (after life) then progression is useless.

It is worth playing if you enjoy it.
 
Well it makes sense to me because I happen to believe in reincarnation. Also your enjoyment becomes irrelevant since you have no other choice, but make of it what you will.

It makes sense if you believe in reincarnation.

Not if you're agnostic.

Anyhow you presented a good argument despite your own recognized "toxicity", but is only expected since we all here have seemed to form strong opinions/preconceptions about suicide.

But I think it might be high time to switch gears.
 
My opinion is more and more people are falling away from religion. Why? I have no idea. Also, i see more and more people becoming mean AssH@les anymore.

People are also withdrawing themselves from public and are staying inside 24/7. I'm guessing society is falling apart. It's way different than it used to be. I have a theory, why this is going down like it is and why society is crumbling down.


Cell phones and technology!

We have no idea what it's doing to our minds. To be honest, we should slow down and study the affects it has on us.

IceDancer
 
If people are falling away from religion I would think it is because it doesn't fill people's real needs. Of course now science is a replacement religion to many so things may not have changed all that much. One thing that has changed is it has become much more socially acceptable to be openly agnostic or atheist.

I lived before the advent of computers and cell phones. I liked it a lot better back then but I was not born to it like this generation. Most seem to love it at least on the surface. But we can't slow down now, that's not going to happen unless we have a nuke war or something drastic.
 
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My opinion is more and more people are falling away from religion. Why? I have no idea. Also, i see more and more people becoming mean AssH@les anymore.

I dunno, I think the assholery of humankind is pretty impossible to accurately quantify (but 'fucking huge' is enough). There is a tendency to see society and culture as always getting worse. I'm not sure why, but given how prevalent such thinking is, I'm inclined to see it as a knee-jerk reaction to change in general. Which is always happening and so is the resistance. Perhaps a little bit of survival instinct kicking in and opting for the 'known known's' of safety and predictability.

The moving away from religion is not a bad thing though IMO. I think its harder to explain the contradictions of religion these days, harder to justify the foibles and idiosyncrasies and some of the outright unethical beliefs, given the movements our society has made to free itself of the consequences of many of them (such as women's rights, gay rights, non-traditional families, etc.). Many of those movements are increasingly succesful and this is a good thing.

Cell phones and technology!

I definitely think that we have not thought through the consequences of our wholesale adoption of technology. Particularly internet connected technology and social media. I don't know if anyone would have really predicted that things like twitter and facebook would become so important to many people, even twenty years ago. I've wondered if the huge amount of conflcting ideologies and cultural mores we now encounter through the internet has lead to a sort of overload.


Well it makes sense to me because I happen to believe in reincarnation.

Why do you believe in that, if you don't mind me asking? An open and honest question with no hidden agenda. I am always curious when I hear such statements. :) Of course, you needn't answer if you don't wish.

And yeah I realize my conversational tone is a bit toxic, but I think in this case it's a byproduct of having to deal with square-minded people whose purpose is to stall or prevent progress. Generally I'm much more easygoing and when someone sheds new light on a topic I will gladly sit back and listen.

No man, the way you choose to talk to people is always your responsibility. You can disagree with people, and its good when it happens because constant agreements and right-ons make boring reading IMO, but you can do it like an adult, with politeness and respect.
 
Atheism, to me anyway, is more about admitting that I(and humankind in general) know so very little about the overall workings of the universe and how it came to be, and instead of following some bogus mythology that explains it all without any actual evidence whatsoever and makes little to no sense, I try to seek out real answers, even if it is a much slower process.
 
My opinion is more and more people are falling away from religion. Why? I have no idea. Also, i see more and more people becoming mean AssH@les anymore.

People are also withdrawing themselves from public and are staying inside 24/7. I'm guessing society is falling apart. It's way different than it used to be. I have a theory, why this is going down like it is and why society is crumbling down.

I think the biggest culprit is that the population has boomed tremendously, and people are living in "communities" so large they are no longer communities. When people live in smaller communities, they know most or all of the people they live among and camaraderie is the natural result... when you're living in a city of million people, sudden;y all of those people are competition, not to be trusted. I think the ramifications on personal comfort and happiness are obvious and drastic. And add to that the isolation brought about by people living apart from families and staying inside (away from nature, which we have always been a part of until relative recently on an evolutionary scale) and it's no wonder people are so unsatisfied and twisted and mental illness (particularly anxiety and depression) is so prevalent.

I dunno, I think the assholery of humankind is pretty impossible to accurately quantify (but 'fucking huge' is enough). There is a tendency to see society and culture as always getting worse. I'm not sure why, but given how prevalent such thinking is, I'm inclined to see it as a knee-jerk reaction to change in general.

Yes, it seems like, at least in recent times, every generation sees culture as getting worse. My grandparents see their youth's time as great and everything after as degraded... my parents see their youth's time as an improvement over their parents' and their own as great as great and everything after as degraded, and I see our time as an improvement over my parents'. Of course I don't see my own time as great, but I also don't see when I was younger being better than now... in fact I find now to be preferable to when I was a kid. Maybe (hopefully) I will continue to see that being the case. I guess we'll see...
 
Not progress in general, I meant my own personal progress. I think I've said it before, but I come from a similar mindset of thinking that life is meaningless and absurd; that suicide or not, you're on your way to your deathbed anyway; that for every positive facet of our existence there's always more negative ones etc. I can't go back to thinking like that again because it won't get me anywhere I want to be and tbh it's not a healthy and objective viewpoint to stand on. Besides, the signs that there's something more are overwhelming for me now, and I'm not about to doubt myself because some depressed junkie in retirement doesn't know what to do with his time left to live.

It's too bad some have to take things so personally. I can discuss just about anything without feeling someone is trying to get me to doubt myself. I'm stronger than that. It's more about learning and connecting for me. I think it's much more productive to try and connect and enjoy others here than taking pot shots at them just because I don't agree with their pov. For me spirituality and philosophy includes respecting others. What good is any belief without that?
 
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Fair question I guess. It must seem like wishful thinking, but darwin's explanation is too sterile for me. Like ok we've evolved from apes, but that doesn't adequately address matters of consciousness, intelligence, culture etc. There's a big gap in our understanding of how such things manifest and while there's bound to be a scientific explanation for everything, I'm pretty sure there's a second underlying level responsible for and synchronized with this first level we operate on. My belief in reincarnation stems from this idea that our existence is rooted in both material and immaterial dimensions. Ofc I can't prove all of this to you, but then again I don't think it's my place to do so even if I could.

Each to their own, I say.

Its interesting that you say that evolutionary theory is too "sterile" and unable to account for things such as consciousness. From my own reading, limited I must admit, evolutionary theory is the ONLY theory I've encountered which actually explains why we have life as we know it and why it is always changing. As I said, each to their own.

You should have a read of the book "The Dragons of Eden" by Carl Sagan. Its a bit old now but it talks about evolution and the way in which our brain still retains basically all the 'hardware' it has had throughout its evolutionary history, with additions 'built-on' to the existing structure. Consciousness is not just one thing, it is a continuously emerging property of our brains and consciousness has been slowly building towards the consciousness that we have now. Not that this is an end point, but at the very least, our consciousness represents something pretty much new for earth and the evidence for change and evolution is still held within our brains.

The whole field of evolutionary psychology is something that I find pretty fascinating.
 
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