The UK in the EU: "Brexit"

[Deleted member 210577]

Both the EU and the GBP are down. But the GBP is down farther than the EU. People have less faith in the economy of the UK than the EU.

Oh you reckon do you? The EU economy was being propped up in part by our contribution, alongside the other powerhouse economies like Germany. In reality the cracks appeared long ago and will split open soon with Italy, Spain, and so forth. We'll be alright in the UK. But the med countries? Ha. God help them.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Oh you reckon do you? The EU economy was being propped up in part by our contribution, alongside the other powerhouse economies like Germany. In reality the cracks appeared long ago and will split open soon with Italy, Spain, and so forth. We'll be alright in the UK. But the med countries? Ha. God help them.

So far, the markets disagree.

Both the Euro and the GBP took a pretty big hit from the Brexit vote. But the GBP took a bigger hit.

Unless we see the European Union implode, I suspect the GBP will be worse in the long run, especially since it seems likely that London will lose its luster as the axis for the financial center for the Euro.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Well-written article arguing Brexit was ultimately a good thing:

http://qz.com/721089/the-case-for-brexit/

"Xenophobic. Racist. Jingoistic. Nativist. Parochial. The 52% of British voters who hit the EU eject button might be all of those things. But they were also backing the right horse."

I would paste here but it is fairly long and has many graphs. Great read though.

 

[manboychef]

ss: Vacations are an important way for people to decompress when faced with working, and barely having your needs met. What happened to the idea that people need time off to make working worthwhile. Not to mention vacations are a great way to boost the economy of tourism based places. Let me get this straight: Time off is not a luxury. Paid time off should be mandatory. I have worked my entire life, and paid time off is very rare in most fields the working class are in. Most working class people live paycheck to paycheck and are shouldering debt. Even if time off is offered, if it is not paid, those working class people cannot afford to lose that paycheck.

Let me ask you a serious question. How do you feel about paid sick days? Would you like your server, chef, bank teller, nanny etc.. to not be able to take time off when sick and come to work and pass that on to you? Well in the states it is not mandatory. There is also no mandatory maternity leave. Real vacations are putting people in debt. This is where the UK is headed.

It seems to me that brexit was about changing laws that protect the workers, and deregulating the financial sector. It was just easy to mislead people that are uninformed. The states are an indictment of what deregulation causes. Hopefully, you open your eyes and do what is best for you fellow countrymen.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

ss: Vacations are an important way for people to decompress when faced with working, and barely having your needs met. What happened to the idea that people need time off to make working worthwhile. Not to mention vacations are a great way to boost the economy of tourism based places. Let me get this straight: Time off is not a luxury. Paid time off should be mandatory. I have worked my entire life, and paid time off is very rare in most fields the working class are in. Most working class people live paycheck to paycheck and are shouldering debt. Even if time off is offered, if it is not paid, those working class people cannot afford to lose that paycheck.

We're now talking about two different things.. vacations to exotic places, commonly referred to as holidays, and annual leave. I'm talking about exotic vacations, not annual leave. Of course people need time off.. I'm all for that 100%, in fact I would argue even in the UK which has a pretty generous system, job depending, that there is room for improvement. Hell, I'd even argue for extending to a three day weekend! The current arrangement doesn't provide enough down time given how full on up-time has now become in the modern world.

The issue I was getting at is generally involving the middle class and above, though many working class people I know do it too now.. this constant exotic holiday break, helped in part by cheap airline flights. Many people the world over don't get anything at all for a start.. and people are complaining that their holidays abroad might get a fraction more expensive? Give me a fucking break. We live like kings, even the "poor" do. So you can only take one holiday a year to a sunny place? My heart breaks. I haven't been away for years, but a nice sunny day here in the UK countryside, or just in the park, is enough to recharge.

Let me ask you a serious question. How do you feel about paid sick days? Would you like your server, chef, bank teller, nanny etc.. to not be able to take time off when sick and come to work and pass that on to you? Well in the states it is not mandatory. There is also no mandatory maternity leave. Real vacations are putting people in debt. This is where the UK is headed.

All for paid sick days. Not sure why you'd think I would be against it. Same for maternity (and paternity) leave. We are organic beings, not robots, and whilst work is important to keep the world turning the world won't turn at all if we kill off all our spirit.

It seems to me that brexit was about changing laws that protect the workers, and deregulating the financial sector. It was just easy to mislead people that are uninformed. The states are an indictment of what deregulation causes. Hopefully, you open your eyes and do what is best for you fellow countrymen.

Why you think the EU is going to protect us from what you refer to I don't know.. I really do not understand where this sudden belief in the masses has come from in regards to this faith in the EU as an institution. Why? What on earth has led people to believe it is going to protect us from anything! What's best for this country, for any country, is adhering to the basic foundation pillars that make a country great in the first place.. and one of the core pillars is sovereignty.. the ability to make our own laws and hold those who do to account. Remove that pillar and you do not live in a free country.. you live under a dictatorship, no matter how dress it up that's what it is if your laws are made by other people.

This 'thing' is bigger than Murdoch, the right-wing, the Tories or whatever skewed perspective the left likes to try and paint it as. We have got to get away from this polar way of viewing things and all agree that all our elected representatives in the modern era are a great reflection of us as a society.. and we're morally bankrupt. Westminster or Brussels. Washington or Beijing. No difference.

 

[manboychef]

The problem is not vacations. It is people spending beyond their means. It happens a lot in the states with the millenials feeling the need to go out drinking and dining quite a lot on 30k a year.

You are absolutely right that it is a problem endemic of government regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

My point is that collective bargaining power is way better than standing on one's own. Of course there are things about the european union that bad...just as there are bad things in everything.

I ask you this: Are you the type to go down with the ship just to maintain sovereignty?

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I ask you this: Are you the type to go down with the ship just to maintain sovereignty?

If we give it up we will go down anyway, so yes I'd rather we go down fighting than give in and get sunk anyway.

Why would you want to give away your sovereignty to a culturally hollow political entity? Just because it has "European" in the title doesn't mean it has any real meaningful connection to Europe. It likes to pretend it does, that it brings together all our cultures and histories. Bullshit! It hasn't evolved in the same way nation states have.. it's an untested experiment which has been running long enough for us to see that it has no real future in its current format (and reform is never going to happen).

I have a good point in my head but I can't articulate it today. Ugh.

 

[treezy z]

Manboychef how does being in the EU give the citizens collective bargaining power?

The EU is run by unelected bankers and bureaucrats. They don't answer to the citizens at all. The only bargaining power the European people have is brute force if they were all to unite and take the EU down.

 

[MMT]

The EU is run by unelected bankers and bureaucrats. They don't answer to the citizens at all.

Not much different than the Kings and Queens of olden days. Except for the size of the Kingdom.

 

[malakaix]

No Article 50 this year.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...irst-legal-opposition-to-brexit-in-high-court

Theresa May does not intend to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty initiating the UK’s departure from the European Union before the end of 2016, the high court has been told.

At the opening of the first legal challenge to the process of Brexit, government lawyers suggested that the highly sensitive case is likely to be appealed to the supreme court.

At least seven private actions arguing that only parliament, and not the prime minister, has the authority to invoke article 50 have been identified to the court.

Confirming that the UK is not aiming to push the exit button until next year at the earliest, Jason Coppel QC, for the government, conceded that there was “some urgency” to the issue.

 

[manboychef]

I am talking more about the regulations the EU has put on labor. In the states we do not have that and most of the citizens have suffered for it.

I am hoping the UK does not turn out how the US has, but only time will tell.

 

[Ziiirp]

Manboychef how does being in the EU give the citizens collective bargaining power?

The EU is run by unelected bankers and bureaucrats. They don't answer to the citizens at all. The only bargaining power the European people have is brute force if they were all to unite and take the EU down.

Given the current developments, it is likely, that the plans of tighter supervision, aka "transparent citizens", will be tolerated by the population without any objection. Therefore it can be concluded, that the plan to import millions of people without even fucking verify their IDs beforehand, was successfull. I don't know about a more sinister crime of a democratic country (Germany and France) on its citizens.

Nobody in the population wanted to participate in the destabilization of Northern African and Middle Eastern countries and cause a mindless war in the masquerade of "fighting for democracy" 8(. Ask the Libyan people if they rather wanted peace or death, hunger and misery. Ask the Irakish people. the Syrian, the Afghans. Nobody wanted the NATO to wreck their political structures and create chaos and death.

As long as the US-American and Western European population does not give a fuck about the rest of the world and inform themselves about the nexuses of military conflicts and the role of their bullying nation in those trouble spots, the governments will continue to abuse the life of their own and foreign people in order to further enrich a minority, which is utter nonsense and epicly criminal.

 

[manboychef]

As long as the US-American and Western European population does not give a fuck about the rest of the world and inform themselves about the nexuses of military conflicts and the role of their bullying nation in those trouble spots, the governments will continue to abuse the life of their own and foreign people in order to further enrich a minority, which is utter nonsense and an epic level of criminality.

I feel the same way. The US is not the world's police force. Modern imperialism under the guise of "spreading democracy" or "stopping terrorism" is creating so many problems for us here, and for those abroad. In the states more than half of our budget goes to the military, which leaves the other budgets for education, healthcare, environment etc. anemic at best. Who benefits the most from a foreign war? I will tell you. Those that have businesses like haliburton, or those that create military technology or build weapons. The american people pay a shit ton of money in taxes to enrich these assholes, but the biggest cost is the lives of soldiers, and the lives of those in the countries we try to "spread democracy to".

When it comes to brexit: I seriously hope that your country is not completely destabilized economically by this. I know your working class people are going to suffer considerably, however those that are upper class are going to enrich themselves off the lack of regulation on banking and business that were in place when they were part of the EU.

 

[Ziiirp]

I'm not British, but from another European country with an equally shameful past.

The biggest disadvantage of the Brexit for me from a global perspective is, that the UK now - just as the USA - has the opportunity to exploit arbitrary countries as a part of the NATO-gang without directly having to deal with the consequences, i.e. accommodate refugees as a part of the EU. That situation also has the potential of creating a split within the NATO, when Germany and France will likely try to ease the relationship to Russia, Turkey, Syria (Assad), Iran in the future because of domestic issues, while USA and UK will continue the collision curse.

Does not need to be a bad thing today, a decay of the NATO.

 

[socko]

The American Democratic base needs to realize that it was their own leaders, Bill Clinton's wife and Obama, who got Kadafi killed and who tried to kill Assad. Had that never happened, this massive wave of refugees never would have flooded into Europe. the British were afraid they would have to take on the refugees that Clinton created. So of course the voted for brexit.

Teh world is going to have to deal with 8 more years of new humanitarian catastrophes created by America's leaders when America gets its new hawkish/unstable president.

Given the current developments, it is likely, that the plans of tighter supervision, aka "transparent citizens", will be tolerated by the population without any objection. Therefore it can be concluded, that the plan to import millions of people without even fucking verify their IDs beforehand, was successfull. I don't know about a more sinister crime of a democratic country (Germany and France) on its citizens.

Nobody in the population wanted to participate in the destabilization of Northern African and Middle Eastern countries and cause a mindless war in the masquerade of "fighting for democracy" 8(. Ask the Libyan people if they rather wanted peace or death, hunger and misery. Ask the Irakish people. the Syrian, the Afghans. Nobody wanted the NATO to wreck their political structures and create chaos and death.

As long as the US-American and Western European population does not give a fuck about the rest of the world and inform themselves about the nexuses of military conflicts and the role of their bullying nation in those trouble spots, the governments will continue to abuse the life of their own and foreign people in order to further enrich a minority, which is utter nonsense and epicly criminal.

 

[Ziiirp]

The American Democratic base needs to realize that it was their own leaders, Bill Clinton's wife and Obama, who got Kadafi killed and who tried to kill Assad. Had that never happened, this massive wave of refugees never would have flooded into Europe. the British were afraid they would have to take on the refugees that Clinton created. So of course the voted for brexit.

Teh world is going to have to deal with 8 more years of new humanitarian catastrophes created by America's leaders when America gets its new hawkish/unstable president.

Unfortunately not just the USA to blame for this chaos. It is also the yea-sayers, that must obey, because their security depends on the US like Germany, France. In my view, the time has come, when Europe should seperate from the big bully friend and flirt with his enemies (mentioned above), with whom together they have a comparable army and create a stalemate situation in order to stop this insane machinery of sorrow. That would be the most promising path to ensure peace in the long run.

 

[MMT]

What's a regular American to do ? Or any regular westerner for that matter ? The 99% do not want this.

 

[manboychef]

^^^exactly. The 99% have been fooled into believing what that they want it, but through their folly they will suffer now, while the 1% grab more of the wealth. Yes more of the wealth can cycle upwards, even after noone else has any money...it is called debt.

 

[MMT]

^MBC, I'm talking about the interventionism and neo-colonialism in the ME. The US definitely led the charge but Europe went right along with them.I don't think the 99% was fooled into believing. No one I know wanted us to go back into Iraq,we had Saddam contained (no fly zones and all).Libya too,we had no business fucking with ANY of the Arab uprisings. The only ones that wanted the ME mess were the leaders of Israel/USA/EU and the folks that make $$ off of wars and young men dying. Certainly the average citizens of these countries had no desire for any of this stuff. The only place we had a right to retaliate against was Afghanistan and even then I'm not so sure Bin Laden wasn't suckered into the 911 conspiracy.I still can't square the fact that he could have pulled 911 off all by himself.IMO,it's all but certain to me that it was a US/SA/Israeli concocted crime and that Bin Laden had no idea who he was getting involved with. There are still too many questions and obfuscation that continue to this very day. Just another reason the West fears Trump so much,he knows a lot more than he lets on if only to stay alive. The West is no more than a fuckin mafia with Omerta as their credo while using democracy as a cover. Like the Mexican slogan, "plata o plomo" ,silver or lead,you play or you die . Only a popular uprising will ever change things but we're just not there yet.But I can see a Hillary presidency providing the tipping point,only millions more will have to die.

 

[malakaix]

UPDATE:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ief-negotiator-opt-in-passports-a7465271.html

EU negotiators will offer Brits an individual opt-in to remain EU citizens, chief negotiator confirms

EU negotiators will offer British people the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens as a proposal in Brexit negotiations, the European Parliament’s chief negotiator has confirmed.

The plan, first revealed in its early stages by The Independent last month, was being considered as a long-term aim by the European Parliament – but has now been fast-tracked to the negotiating table by Guy Verhofstadt, who is in charge of thrashing out a post-Brexit deal.

The plan would see Brits offered individual “associate citizenship”, letting them keep free movement to live and work across the EU, as well as a vote in European Parliament elections.