Regional Pills/MD(M)A Discussion V. I don't understand this chemical waffle

[Small_town_casual]

Yes I haven't in the past but I am now... But well done you for being able to highlight a certain section of my comment, who's a clever boy eh?

 

[MiniNapalm]

Now now kids - play nicely. It may be cheesy, but let's not forget PLUR and that we are here for a common purpose: harm reduction ?

 

[rujex]

People report about different effects of mdma pills and assume that it maybe the result of different production processes, BUt maybe its all the same product, just with a different absorbation rate.

The cutout pills are very hard pressed - compared to the classic pills back then. The harder the press, the longer the absorbation should take. It should make a big difference, if all ingredient has entered the blood flow in 30, 45 or 60 min. The faster the comeup, the higher the initial blood level of the drug is.

Its the same with a lot of other drugs taken orally. Kratom users recommed to take it on empty stomach and beer on empty stomach kicks in harder and "cleaner" then on a full stomach. All because with an empty stomach, the absorbotion rate is the fastest. The desired blood level will be reached fast.

The dosage of mdma might make a big difference. E.g. if a half pill (200mg in total) is ingested, the outer bigger sourface will dissolve faster. While the strong pressed pill gets even more dissolved, then it takes a lot more time for the rest - as the surface area is smaller. This means the body has had his "first" dose and the rest will just be some kind of slow reloading + a small tolerance because of the intial mdma. The old crumble pills would even almost fall apart in the bags. Therefore all ingredient should have been absorbed a lot faster.

The bigger the dose of mdma, the more groggy it will feel. As the absorbation rate - with hard pressed pills - might be slower and still there is sometimes twice a big dose to come - compared to the old pills -, a different experinence could occure - while its still the same mdma.

 

[niall1290]

Don't really post here, more of a lurker, but just to let everyone know, as a few asked about them, I gave the mini coopers a blast at the weekend. Great pills and on par with the rainbow drops. Def from the same crew and beats any of the dutch stuff ive tried over the past year. Would say about 130-140mg of quality MDMA. Highly recommended.

 

[PocketLady]

^^^ Thanks for the info. I'm going to get me some of those I think!

 

[MiniNapalm]

Don't really post here, more of a lurker, but just to let everyone know, as a few asked about them, I gave the mini coopers a blast at the weekend. Great pills and on par with the rainbow drops. Def from the same crew and beats any of the dutch stuff ive tried over the past year. Would say about 130-140mg of quality MDMA. Highly recommended.

Cheers for sharing, that's really helpful. I've seen them but wasn't sure of their origin - are you 100% sure they're from the same source?

Also, any chance that you marquis tested them? I'm just interested to see if this supports the purple/quality MDMA theory.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

People report about different effects of mdma pills and assume that it maybe the result of different production processes, BUt maybe its all the same product, just with a different absorbation rate.

The cutout pills are very hard pressed - compared to the classic pills back then. The harder the press, the longer the absorbation should take. It should make a big difference, if all ingredient has entered the blood flow in 30, 45 or 60 min. The faster the comeup, the higher the initial blood level of the drug is.

Its the same with a lot of other drugs taken orally. Kratom users recommed to take it on empty stomach and beer on empty stomach kicks in harder and "cleaner" then on a full stomach. All because with an empty stomach, the absorbotion rate is the fastest. The desired blood level will be reached fast.

The dosage of mdma might make a big difference. E.g. if a half pill (200mg in total) is ingested, the outer bigger sourface will dissolve faster. While the strong pressed pill gets even more dissolved, then it takes a lot more time for the rest - as the surface area is smaller. This means the body has had his "first" dose and the rest will just be some kind of slow reloading + a small tolerance because of the intial mdma. The old crumble pills would even almost fall apart in the bags. Therefore all ingredient should have been absorbed a lot faster.

The bigger the dose of mdma, the more groggy it will feel. As the absorbation rate - with hard pressed pills - might be slower and still there is sometimes twice a big dose to come - compared to the old pills -, a different experinence could occure - while its still the same mdma.

Yep thought that one too. High dose leading to decreased energy increased lethargy. Did a test to see last year. Halves were taken as theoretically they would then be in the right ball park for energy (90 - 110mg). Result was a reduced peak effect but still very little energy or empathy.

Then crushed up some Dutch pills (Rolls Royce 2.0) tests black = same effect only onset is faster. Usually for Dutch hard press the come up appears longer + 1hr and more like 1 hr 30 if taken as pill but 20 to 45 min if crushed. Duration is shorter come up slightly more intense but the peak effects and plateau identical. Even did a gradually build from 100 mg of crushed powder to the full crushed pill which weighed in at 428 mg, over three months. Effects didn't change just increased or reduced based on the amount. Below 180 mg of the crushed pill the effects were below what I consider threshold dose.

Been reading a bit from 2012 threads and never realised how this discussion has repeated itself over and over since about 2007! Interestingly the ONLY data re pill contents and mg for the 94/96 period I can find comes from ecstacydata org who tested pills at the time and published. Now everyone uses this as the reference as to what was in those pills. Basically not much compared to today 60 - 140 mg max.

On the above theme someone suggested taking red wine and sugar before dropping has a major impact on effect. Appeared to be a bit of an old wives tale no actually proof but certain food and drinks and contents of stomache do alter the effect profile.

Marquis difference is a fairly new theory as I can see. Personally I wish people would get some anectdotal data and practice HR at the same time when doing pills.

However from what I've researched there is absolutely no way to prove the theory as marquis ingredients and % can differ, amount of pill in the sample can differ, ambient temperature, visual is always a matter of opinion and not analytical enough and shelf life leads to the marquis quickly deteriorating.
You'd have to have everything constant.

Anecdotal as in it goes dark purple however would at least give some heads up as to possible type of effects.

@ small town casual you are indeed correct and have been correct every time you've stated it. MDMA producers don't consider anything but the money BUT to establish yourself in the game and be better than the rest you have to offer something unique and different. So there is always potential for someone to fill a gap in the market. Check point being a prime example.

Also take a look at pill reports OZ section. Where we quibble over Dutch pills and want UK in Oz Dutch are seen as the holy grail, they love them because they are so strong and Mongy, even though they have a local industry producing what appears to be good MD albeit pills appear much lower mg. One guy stated the going rate on import 80 and 100 Oz dollars for a black EDIT HARLEY DAVIDSON. That's over £40 a pill!!! Would we pay that for a confirmed high quality synth using original precursors with a proven and published racemic and a full GC MS?

Edit -mini coopers showed up at PR but no marquis or reagent test. Plus purple tesla which have been showing up a bit in clubland over last couple of months but I'm a bit wary on as there are lots of conflicting reports and tesla is a compromised press.

 

[consumer]

Yep thought that one too. High dose leading to decreased energy increased lethargy. Did a test to see last year. Halves were taken as theoretically they would then be in the right ball park for energy (90 - 110mg). Result was a reduced peak effect but still very little energy or empathy.

Then crushed up some Dutch pills (Rolls Royce 2.0) tests black = same effect only onset is faster. Usually for Dutch hard press the come up appears longer + 1hr and more like 1 hr 30 if taken as pill but 20 to 45 min if crushed. Duration is shorter come up slightly more intense but the peak effects and plateau identical. Even did a gradually build from 100 mg of crushed powder to the full crushed pill which weighed in at 428 mg, over three months. Effects didn't change just increased or reduced based on the amount. Below 180 mg of the crushed pill the effects were below what I consider threshold dose.

Been reading a bit from 2012 threads and never realised how this discussion has repeated itself over and over since about 2007! Interestingly the ONLY data re pill contents and mg for the 94/96 period I can find comes from ecstacydata org who tested pills at the time and published. Now everyone uses this as the reference as to what was in those pills. Basically not much compared to today 60 - 140 mg max.

On the above theme someone suggested taking red wine and sugar before dropping has a major impact on effect. Appeared to be a bit of an old wives tale no actually proof but certain food and drinks and contents of stomache do alter the effect profile.

Marquis difference is a fairly new theory as I can see. Personally I wish people would get some anectdotal data and practice HR at the same time when doing pills.

However from what I've researched there is absolutely no way to prove the theory as marquis ingredients and % can differ, amount of pill in the sample can differ, ambient temperature, visual is always a matter of opinion and not analytical enough and shelf life leads to the marquis quickly deteriorating.
You'd have to have everything constant.

Anecdotal as in it goes dark purple however would at least give some heads up as to possible type of effects.

@ small town casual you are indeed correct and have been correct every time you've stated it. MDMA producers don't consider anything but the money BUT to establish yourself in the game and be better than the rest you have to offer something unique and different. So there is always potential for someone to fill a gap in the market. Check point being a prime example.

Also take a look at pill reports OZ section. Where we quibble over Dutch pills and want UK in Oz Dutch are seen as the holy grail, they love them because they are so strong and Mongy, even though they have a local industry producing what appears to be good MD albeit pills appear much lower mg. One guy stated the going rate on import 80 and 100 Oz dollars for a black Dom Periginion. That's over £40 a pill!!! Would we pay that for a confirmed high quality synth using original precursors with a proven and published racemic and a full GC MS?

I have never heard of such high prices for a pill in Australia ever. The most i can remember is $50 in the early 90's but that was when you took half a pill and were flying. Its probably the younger generation getting into these dutch pills. Why pay $100 a pill when a gram of quality MD is $200. Makes no sense to me. The aussie made banana pills i bought a few weeks back were $25 each and really nice. Apparently 120mg of proper old school mdma in them. I have been taking pills since 89 and these were as nice as the pills back then..maybe a bit weaker as you really need a full one but full of loved up euphoric energy. Nothing mongy about them. If people are really paying that much for dutch pills they are just plain stupid.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

Why buy a Ferrari when you don't need one I guess. But yep check out the Harley Davdison comments for OZ. The guy who commented is a regular PR reporter and obviously likes his Dutch "bangers.

Guess there is plenty of people that would pay double that for a 94 double dove or 98 mitzi.

People pay £100 plus for a g Coke and let's be honest it really ain't close value for money on a gram of MDMA.

Lol suggest you get out of the tv export business and make some Dutch friends

 

[SmokingAces]

Boa no offence but some of the stuff your now saying is so unrealistic even I'm left thinking "they're not going to do any of that, they're already making money".

A lot of people want what's fast reliable (and makes them a bit of extra money in a lot of cases).
Not everyone is interested in finding the best out there either. Doesn't mean those of us who do want the holy grail of ecstasy experiences are wrong for doing so, on the contrary IMO it makes more sense if you are throwing serotonin to the wind it makes sense to choose only the best to do it with.

Most of us who started out here asking why the Dutch pills were more mongy then pre drought pills have had our answer. PMK-Gylcidate and that it can be stereospecific. ie only yields one isomer/an unequal mix of isomers rather than racemic product as Shuglin recommends.

Us discussing what's caused it isn't going to change how hard it is for the guys running these labs to source enough Safrole oil to make 10 million pre drought pills. The can only work with what they have available to them.

The authorities banned the importation of Safrole oil into Europe, put it on a watched list, then PMK, next following that pattern will be PMK-Glycidate. Then what? Another analogue like Glycidate?
None of us, or the guys pressing the current pills know the answer to this.

It's no wonder the Dutch want to press as many different pills now while they still can. In 10 years time you never know they might not even have anything to press...

 

[consumer]

This is a quote from biscuit who is pretty clued in fella who posted this earlier in the mdma forum.

I agree with all of this.

It is not just a change in precursor which may be the cause of the issue. If these mega labs are using stereoselective catalysts when converting MD-P2P to MDMA via reductive amination (whether the MD-P2P is produced from the new precursor or not), then such a production method will favour one isomer over the other. Not only is the R isomer reported to have the "mongy" effects which have been described, it is also comparatively less potent than the S isomer. This is another logical explanation for why there has been this sudden enormous increase in the dosage of MDMA being put into these pills.

In the late 90s/early 2000s, I never came across a pill which had more than 150mg of MDMA in it (and I was privy to the results of hundreds of lab tests) and the truly amazing MDMA effects of some of these are simply in a different league to the current high dose pills. Of course tolerance and set and setting come into it, but we have gone way past that now and the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence is pretty clear. All that we need is for a laboratory to test the R:S ratio of a few of these pills and either confirm or bust the theory. It can certainly be done and forensic chemists do it all the time when they need to compare two separate batches of seized amphetamines (including the MDXX substances) to determine if they originated from a common source.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

Two years ago no one on DN said anything about precursor and now?

In 10 years time we will be enjoying pharma grade produced by govt approved labs - the war on drugs is over and common sense prevails

I like to dream ?

Edit - dreams come from somewhere. Check out the book Narconomics. The drugs world has been turned on its head and there is only one practical solution. An absolute must read if you have any interest at all in the supply chain etc.

Also a very interesting theory re cocaine comes up from reading it. IE They increased yields when volumes of raw material (leaves) significantly reduced = chemists coming up with a new method / solution. Now yields are higher than ever from a far lower amount of "precursor". Do I hear people say the quality of Coke and the high has substantially changed since the 80's to?

 

[Sprout]

I just hope the political overlords are aware that the upcoming NPS ban is gonna scatter kilo's of cheap precursors to anyone with an eye for opportunity and an internet connection...
The piperonal compounds are not something I envisage being as ubiquitous in clandestine synth over the next decade, the contraption conjured for their utilisation is running a little short on dated fuel sources just as more practical options present themselves. Crude oil may have powered a Hummer, but biodiesel and hydroelectric systems will ultimately eclipse the crushed dinosaur mess.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

Throw in forthcoming phase out of specific solvents (toluene dimethylene chloride) and things indeed look bleak.

 

[Sprout]

Throw in forthcoming phase out of specific solvents (toluene dimethylene chloride) and things indeed look bleak.

Bleak? Pfffft.
Bleak would be relevant plant species (Sass... ) suddenly going extinct and every chem. supply house burning down simultaneously.

It is the Pandora's Box of Pharmacology.
Drug design has been dominated by minor tweaking of specific drugs to escape the clutches of pointless politically motivated prosecution for the last decade, once the pharmacophore begins its return journey things get a little disconcerting. Thousands of now unemployed skilled chemists with access to the finest tools and tricks of technological transformation and synthetic magic tricks and an incomprehensibly massive stockpile of precursors and chemicals that are just as illegal as the possibilities....

The 21st century is an incredible time to be interested in scientific advances, to be druggie scum, to be the faceless audience to the screenplay of money, power, law, discovery and pure scientific ingenuity.

 

[breakcorefiend]

I have never heard of such high prices for a pill in Australia ever. The most i can remember is $50 in the early 90's but that was when you took half a pill and were flying. Its probably the younger generation getting into these dutch pills. Why pay $100 a pill when a gram of quality MD is $200. Makes no sense to me. The aussie made banana pills i bought a few weeks back were $25 each and really nice. Apparently 120mg of proper old school mdma in them. I have been taking pills since 89 and these were as nice as the pills back then..maybe a bit weaker as you really need a full one but full of loved up euphoric energy. Nothing mongy about them. If people are really paying that much for dutch pills they are just plain stupid.

I think the bananas are dutch from what i can gather, there are a lot of dutch sellers on dnms selling them, wouldn't make sense for them to be imported from aus, most likely the bananas are dutch imported to aus

 

[niall1290]

Cheers for sharing, that's really helpful. I've seen them but wasn't sure of their origin - are you 100% sure they're from the same source?

Also, any chance that you marquis tested them? I'm just interested to see if this supports the purple/quality MDMA theory.

Too be fair I cant say for certain they are from the same crew. However I am from Manchester which is apparently where these pills are being made, and I got the Mini's locally off the same person who once stocked the rainbow drops/pastels/ufo's which all have the same pattern of coming in a few different colours. So take it as you will. Either way they were pretty much identical in effects as the Rainbow drops with a 1 month break between usage. I did not marquis test them unfortunately.

 

[headfuck123]

Which reagent test is most suited to test for PMA/PMMA in a pill that already has MDMA?

 

[Brenner]

Cheers for sharing, that's really helpful. I've seen them but wasn't sure of their origin - are you 100% sure they're from the same source?

Also, any chance that you marquis tested them? I'm just interested to see if this supports the purple/quality MDMA theory.

I've tested the mini coopers and disappointingly they went straight to black like the dutch stuff. Judging from the comments on here about the minis though it may not be a reliable indicator of the MDMA quality contrary to what we first thought.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

Here in lies the issue.

It's not possible to spot a PMMA / PMA pill if it has been mixed with MDxx compounds using reagents. Reagent testing has limits. They tell you only what it might be, only GCMS can tell you what it is.

It's why anyone who knowingly creates or sells a pill containing both compounds should be immediately up for attempted murder. Doubled by the fact PMxx / MDxx together are even more toxic than just PMxx alone.

Thankfully the PMA / PMMA / MDxx combo pills are rare but alas for every pill we decide to take there is always the risk.