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Collective inteligence in action: lets find how to reverse/reset NMDAs tolerance

Hexagon Sun

Bluelighter
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Mar 29, 2010
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Dopamine, serotonin, opioids, cannabis, pretty much all neurotransmission systems does balance tolerance pretty quick.

Why NMDAs tolerance builds so fast and is near to impossible to reset it?. I remember hearing about some peptid that was promising but I can´t find that info now. Do you know if that possibility even exist?. And why NMDA are so different?. Would we achieve this in the next 1-5-10-20 years?. Lets speculate about it and havest suggestions about keep the tolerance as low as possible.
 
NMDAR use 2 neutrotransmitters Glycine and Glutamine which might allow one to link and the onther one to be open keeping that NDAMR Closed but open so not tangible for recycling and not used those are the receptors that stay long in your brain and make you keep tolerance for long. By why would anyone want to reuce the amount of NMDAR receptors in your brain, I suggest you build GABA and other stabilizing-effect receptors like acetylcholine and others? Is it to get the dissociative high back? If yes then you onlyhave to do one thing, glycine supplement, glutamine supplement and intellectual activity. Also cannabis does in long term reduce the density of NMDA receptors at SPECIFIC areas of the brain might help too.

It is a rare question because usually people seek to gain those because they are directly linked to sending informations across time in your brian. So lowering them = global dissociation of the brain. Too much isnt better tho: Unable to keep track of every information/emotion rememberd and act without cooridination in terms of event/context.
 
NMDAR use 2 neutrotransmitters Glycine and Glutamine which might allow one to link and the onther one to be open keeping that NDAMR Closed but open so not tangible for recycling and not used those are the receptors that stay long in your brain and make you keep tolerance for long. By why would anyone want to reuce the amount of NMDAR receptors in your brain, I suggest you build GABA and other stabilizing-effect receptors like acetylcholine and others? Is it to get the dissociative high back? If yes then you onlyhave to do one thing, glycine supplement, glutamine supplement and intellectual activity. Also cannabis does in long term reduce the density of NMDA receptors at SPECIFIC areas of the brain might help too.

It is a rare question because usually people seek to gain those because they are directly linked to sending informations across time in your brian. So lowering them = global dissociation of the brain. Too much isnt better tho: Unable to keep track of every information/emotion rememberd and act without cooridination in terms of event/context.

That sounds interesting! By the way, either if you are able to lower tolerance to disos, magic will never came back. Once you're experienced with them they won't surprise you quite often again. I find ketamine tolerance nearly irreversible, but with 1-2 weeks of not taking PCP-like compounds, tolerance seems to lower easily.
 
I posted this on reddit but I'm going to repost it here since its relevant and I think we could get a discussion going:

According to this study, piracetam and aniracetam are both AMPA receptor potentiators. What does it mean for something to be a receptor potentiator?
If people are interested, the reason I am asking is because I'm trying to figure out how to restore the psychedelic effects of ketamine. Ketamine produces almost no psychedelic effects for me anymore because of increased tolerance.

According to this study, the psychedelic effects of ketamine are not caused by NMDA receptor antagonism, as is commonly believed, but is rather caused by excess NMDA agonizing the AMPA receptor.

With this in mind, my theory is that overuse of ketamine has caused my AMPA receptors to lose sensitivity (I don't know the technical term for this) to NMDA. Therefore, it seems likely that something called an AMPA receptor potentiator would increase the sensitivity of my AMPA receptors. Is this reasonable?
I'm not quite sure what a receptor potentiator is though. Does it increase the sensitivity of a receptor? Also, do the potentiating effects persist after piracetam supplementation has ceased? This is important because anecdotal reports find that piracetam, when taken simultaneously with ketamine, actually inhibits the psychedelic effects of ketamine.

Hopefully someone has some insight on this. Thanks!
 
I would think that the psychedelic effects of NMDA antagonists are not directly related to glutamate (after all, AMPAkines like piracetam are not psychedelic), but rather probably related to release of monoamines like serotonin and dopamine - and the tolerance you experience might be mediated by up-regulation of serotonin and dopamine receptors.

NMDA provides a lot of input to inhibitory interneurons, when you block NMDA you turn off the inhibitory neurons and turn up the neurons down stream of the inhibitory neurons. This is thought to be NMDA antagonists mechanism of action.

Disruption of the oscillatory waves that facilitate communication between brain regions might be playing a role in psychedelic effects as well and up regulation / down regulation of any number of receptors could diminish that effect.
 
So you basically say to take racetams not in concomitance with dissos could lower back the tolerance, no?. I will try it experimentally. If more BLters can try it we could find consensus if it work.

...and the tolerance you experience might be mediated by up-regulation of serotonin and dopamine receptors.

I guess not because after using dissos, you would get crosstolerance for amphetamins and 5ht psychs which is not the case. Also the antidepressive (5ht) and stimulant (Do) effect keeps in time even when your disso tolerance is out of the roof.

To me it seems like NMDA receptors mechanism of downregulation is wildly different from the others. I bet there´s some missing key we all have to find yet. Thank all for the input, lets keep looking for it.
 
From what I read recently that about K's dissociative action being mediated by serotonergic mechanisms is correct and significant - psychedelics just mostly work via 5HT2A which leaves plenty of room for different subtypes and importantly SERT being involved.

I wonder if nootropics can make a difference for dissociative tolerance but I kind of doubt it. If anything it seems like they support the tolerance instead of reversing it.

Why is this not in the NSP forum? If you want the knowledgeable people to speculate on info / theories to achieve this the people in there should be what you need? :)
 
You could try racetams, I think I would just try sobriety myself.

What could be happening is that with the regular NMDA shortage the downstream receptors have up regulated to compensate. Glutamate potentiators like piracetam can supply input to NMDA so that the receptors down stream of the NMDA down regulate again and so when you do block NMDA with ketamine there is minimal activity downstream of it (the receptors after NMDA are desensitized).

I think there's a good chance that a lot of the tolerance is being mediated by receptors down stream of NMDA.
 
I'm not suggesting that it would work, and I don't advise anyone to take any substances. I'm asking if it would work because I'm not sure. I have almost no knowledge of neuroscience, but I want to change that.
 
Cotcha thanks for your reply. If I read it correct, you're saying you think extended piracetam supplementation could help reduce tolerance over time?
 
It's possible that it could help, but piracetam WITH ketamine could be counterproductive as far as tripping goes. It could also increase harm.

I think a good benchmark here would be how much disso tolerance (maybe only to certain aspects of the disso it intoxication) do people formerly on things like SSRIs and amphetamines have - that might tell you (roughly) if some of the tolerance is being mediated by serotonin and dopamine receptors.
 
With psychedelics it its 5HT2A attached to a precise orther receptor I dont remember, activating a chain reaction that makes your brain takes more to its neighbor and somehow the visual data transfer is reversed so you see memories or imagination+everythingyourknow.

Ket increase the concentration of dopamine,serotonin,norepinephirne(monoamines) between your neurons making them ''talk'' more and give more energy which can lead to euphoria or even hallucination if it is mixed with a dissociative actions like NMDA antagonist activity which it also posses along with alot more. The trip is a momoamines boost with a dissociative backgrougnd.

As for PCP and orther compound they are simply like ketamine but more dopaminergic and dissociative so more euphoria (bad Idea) Also dopaime in impotant in hallucinations so its why you hallucinate so much on PCP.

Yes racetams can at a lower extend incrrease a dissociative buzz but will make it less dissociatve and more euphoric I think but thats not important.
What I wanted to say is that racetams are 5HT2A Positive allosteric modulator so which of the hallucinogen will be increased the most by racetams, 5HT2A agonist.
 
From what I read recently that about K's dissociative action being mediated by serotonergic mechanisms is correct and significant - psychedelics just mostly work via 5HT2A which leaves plenty of room for different subtypes and importantly SERT being involved.

I wonder if nootropics can make a difference for dissociative tolerance but I kind of doubt it. If anything it seems like they support the tolerance instead of reversing it.

Why is this not in the NSP forum? If you want the knowledgeable people to speculate on info / theories to achieve this the people in there should be what you need? :)

Good point Soli, I'll chuck it on over now. Would definitely get some good discussion there.
 
Racetams are 5HT2A agonists? I mean I can understand racetam potentiation of a 5HT2A related process because some 5HT2A leads to glutamate and there are 5HT2A receptors on non serotonergic cells but I didn't know racetams were 5HT2A agonists. If the affinity is high enough to matter you would want to avoid racetams in that case.
 
The dissociative are maybe the most obscure drug class out there (I may be wrong though) - they directly interfere with the deep circuits of our consciousness. I have spent much time in trying to find what's currently known about them and to understand it as far as I could. It's just so infinitely complex. I definitely agree to that they don't follow any "classical" known scheme of tolerance development, but whatever (if I put besides for a moment that I just accepted to be unable to comprehend all the stuff) my conclusion was that it's two mechanisms: 1) the immune system responding to xenobiotic influences, a complex cascade involving things like NADPH oxidase, reactive superoxides, and whatnot and 2) direct learning process. This is true for every drug but maybe much more for such ones that directly alternate the ways we perceive and form memories. Maybe it's just impossible to reset the brain to a dissociative naive state (is this even possible for any drug? For some more than others, perhaps?)

Said that, things are still obscure and interesting.

Dissociatives appear to affect every individual very differently, maybe more so than any other drug class.
For me, they exhibit only incomplete cross tolerance. And the actual tolerance threshold is very dependent on the current state of mind, on a random day a given dose can have next to no effect but on the next day be nearly overwhelming.
Then, different ones behave differently. Ketamine for example has a nearly infinite but predictable tolerance curve for me. Also it is the cleanest one, by far. When tolerance goes up, you begin to feel the secondary effects much more (obviously). DXM for example has strong weird inhibitory effects on the muscles and leaves me nearly unable to walk straight or to speak simple sentences at 350mg or so and above, with the mind being completely clear due to NMDA tolerance. Ketamine interestingly has little (negative) secondary effects for me, it isn't immobilizing at all but behaves like a short-lived stimulant. You could say it behaves somewhat like cocaine below the tolerance threshold (probably it has some DAT inhibiting effects, but this is speculative). MXE becomes a serotonergic with a hint of unpredictable NMDA antagonist buildup, but is nowhere near that nasty O-PCE with its nearly never ending after effects- Would say it is on par with memantine with the duration, maybe even longer. Oh, and ketamine isn't equal to ketamine. One batch gave me these infamous K stomach cramps, all the others not. One batch had slight physical, but strictly physically only, withdrawal after a week-long binge - mainly tremor. All the others not. And so on.

Now thinking of memantine, which also is a NMDA antagonist, things become even more difficult. Wouldn't I know the technical details, I'd say it acts on completely different receptors, yet it becomes clearly dissociative when dosed high enough (but lacks any psychedelic effects, which ketamine lacks for me too, but I can get a deeply relaxing dream-like near-hole on it, just that it isn't psychedelic at all). Pregabalin has acute dissociative-like effects too though, and it doesn't act on NMDA receptors at all. It's even much worse in terms of tolerance.

Back to the disso's. Sorry that I couldn't contribute anything usual, all my loved theses proved to be more or less wrong. There is a load of interesting stuff on PubMed, especially on this "ketamine / PCP model of schizophrenia" about changes resulting from dissociative abuse. Still the question though if this happens to anyone, just a part of the population, of even just a fraction and they just picked those who complained / got negative effects?

I'm very interested on the topic.
 
Now thinking of memantine, which also is a NMDA antagonist, things become even more difficult. Wouldn't I know the technical details, I'd say it acts on completely different receptors, yet it becomes clearly dissociative when dosed high enough (but lacks any psychedelic effects, which ketamine lacks for me too, but I can get a deeply relaxing dream-like near-hole on it, just that it isn't psychedelic at all). Pregabalin has acute dissociative-like effects too though, and it doesn't act on NMDA receptors at all. It's even much worse in terms of tolerance.

Ketamine dissociates from the PCP binding site slowly and therefore it can get trapped in the channel due to its long residence time (the length of time it takes for dissociation to occur). Memantine has a fast dissociation rate/short residence time and is a lot less likely to be trapped. The fact that memantine is "low trapping" means that its ability to block NMDA-R signaling is highly dependent on the ongoing level of Glu activity (which controls whether memantine has access to the binding site). With ketamine, the level of blockade is more independent of the level of Glu activity (if it gets trapped in the channel then it will continue to block the channel the next time it opens).

Back to the disso's. Sorry that I couldn't contribute anything usual, all my loved theses proved to be more or less wrong. There is a load of interesting stuff on PubMed, especially on this "ketamine / PCP model of schizophrenia" about changes resulting from dissociative abuse. Still the question though if this happens to anyone, just a part of the population, of even just a fraction and they just picked those who complained / got negative effects?

I'm very interested on the topic.

The point of the model is that blocking NMDA-R produces schizophrenia-like symptoms. The model doesn't suggest that dissociative abuse results in schizophrenia.
 
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I think what the guy a couple posts back was trying to say is: want the magic back? take WITH a 5HT2A agonist, LSD, psilocybin etc. I can attest to this. magic regained immediately, little too much sometimes! ;)
 
Racetams are 5HT2A agonists? I mean I can understand racetam potentiation of a 5HT2A related process because some 5HT2A leads to glutamate and there are 5HT2A receptors on non serotonergic cells but I didn't know racetams were 5HT2A agonists. If the affinity is high enough to matter you would want to avoid racetams in that case.

They are PAM not direct agonist at least that I know of..
 
The point of the model is that blocking NMDA-R produces schizophrenia-like symptoms. The model doesn't suggest that dissociative abuse results in schizophrenia.
There are some other sounding papers though:

Repeated application of ketamine to rats induces changes in the hippocampal expression of parvalbumin, neuronal nitric oxide synthase and cFOS similar to those found in human schizophrenia.

Abuse of the dissociative anesthetic ketamine can lead to a syndrome indistinguishable from schizophrenia. In animals, repetitive exposure to this N-methyl-D-aspartate–receptor antagonist induces the dysfunction of a subset of cortical fast-spiking inhibitory interneurons, with loss of expression of parvalbumin and the γ-aminobutyric acid–producing enzyme GAD67. (continued)
 
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