100% Abstinence impossible for some?

[Captain.Heroin]

Anhedonia and lack of motivation is normal and should subside over time.

 

[GolemGolem]

I think there is a part of me that actually enjoys being addicted to a substance. It becomes a reason to get out of bed in the morning as sad as that is.

I kind of feel that way about vaped nicotine and pot these days. It gives my day some extra structure and an itch I both need and know how to scratch, but it doesn't trigger my more destructive tastes like drinking around harder drugs, or reduce me to a lost zombie like having a lot of dissos around. If it did I'd have to quit those too.

 

[Soulgasm]

Lol all of these addicts sitting here discussing how maybe we can use one drug instead of another and call it "harm reduction". Yeah that's a perfect example of your disease trying to trick you. Eventually it's all gonna fall apart, it might just take longer.

Lol all of these 12step fanatics trying to force their views upon everyone else around them. Honestly, the thing that always scared me most about leaving the "disease" behind was becoming a closeminded brainwashee that spouts this kind of bullshit. Luckily that never happened. This deems blastovv is for you dude.

 

[Erikmen]

I agree with crimsonjunk, at some point you can't live without doing something that will make you high.

Unfortunately, for some of us it takes too long to realize this is possible.
The impossible was indeed possible but it's far from being easy.
Being 'normal' is no longer how we'd used to imagine when you've been high for most of your life.

Everything seems to come with a high cost. It's more difficult but somehow I believe we learn to adapt.

We can adapt to anything IMO. As hard as it may be, at some point you get used to it.
Eventually we accept life as it is and small moments of joy are really appreciated.

 

[aihfl]

I agree with crimsonjunk, at some point you can't live without doing something that will make you high.

You can be high on something other a psychoactive substance.

Lol all of these 12step fanatics trying to force their views upon everyone else around them.

To the contrary, we don't give a shit if you use or not. As they say in NA, if you want to use, that's your business. If you don't, that's our business.

 

[Erikmen]

As they say in NA, if you want to use, that's your business. If you don't, that's our business.[/COLOR]

Nicely put aihfl!

 

[Foreigner]

That is terrible. There is nothing worse than forced abstinence.

This thread has really made me think about things in my own life. I think there is a part of me that actually enjoys being addicted to a substance. It becomes a reason to get out of bed in the morning as sad as that is. Especially my addiction to opiates. If not for it I would probably sleep all day and not leave the house for weeks. Instead I have to get up and at least make enough effort to get to the clinic on time. When I was addicted to heroin it was the reason I worked 40 hours a week. I actually haven't had a job since getting on methadone as I lost all motivation to work.

I've lived my life in such a way that I've done my best to avoid a lifestyle that forces me to do things I absolutely loathe doing. I used to work 9-5 in the corporate world and although I was good at my job the soul killing aspects of it drove me to go into any amount of debt necessary to claw my way out of that environment. My body won't physically allow me to compress hatred and despair brought on by a lifestyle that isn't right for me, so eventually I leave.

Unfortunately right now it's my body itself that prevents me from making changes that I would otherwise already be doing. And it's that stuckness that makes me want to turn to drugs. If you had to do heroin to work 40 hours a week then is there any better evidence that your life needed change? Don't get me wrong I know what it's like to be poor and have no choice... you can't always pick and choose in life. But I do notice that the more I try to endure something I hate the greater the probability I'll start using a substance again.

Even in my current situation I always have to remind myself that I still have the freedom to choose. Never forget your freedom.

 

[Foreigner]

It's not just an AA/NA platitude when they say that post abstinence from your DOC that the good thing about abstinence is that you start to have feelings again, and the bad thing is that you start to have feelings again.

I called it "the great thawing" in jest to my friends, but it wasn't really a joke. When life is good and things are going well, it feels all the more amazing because there's nothing clogging up my consciousness. I've had moments where life is so good that I almost have to pinch myself... and that has made it all the more worth it.

But when you're down and out, those raw emotions can be hard to stomach.

I guess that's life for you. It's all temporary anyway. But how temporary is the question.

 

[Erikmen]

I guess that's life for you. It's all temporary anyway. But how temporary is the question.

Absolutely.
I believe we tend to think we are on a permanent situation even it's meant to be temporary.

When I was younger I'd settle for good business imagining that 10 years would be indefinite.
I'd thought I'd always have a life time ahead of me.
Now it's a bit different.

 

[manboychef]

I'm in a similar situation to foreigner. I can't work right now due to health. I am a workaholic, just the way my dad was, and his dad...somehow my brother escaped the trait of working to escape your feelings. I would spend all day in the kitchen and the restaurants I worked were successful because of it. Unfortunately for the workaholic everything else falls apart around it. My health is not so good now.

Abstinence is not sobriety. Sobriety is a state of mind. Is the coffee you drink not a mood altering substance that you can control? I know I like a cup in the morning, but I can just as easily do without.

Dependence is not addiction: I am dependent on benzos. I don't crave a high from them. I need them for relief from mental issues. I am currently weening myself off again to see if I can handle the panic disorder without them.

I enjoy a glass of wine at the end of the night. It helps me relax to sleep...I don't drink to excess. Does this make this unsustainable?

My problem was my mind state. This goes back to why abstinence is not sobriety. If you need abstinence to achieve a sober state of mind then that is what you need....What might be right for you, might not be right for some. My sobriety is that I can wakeup without the desire to shoot speedballs all day till I can no longer stand the sight of myself, and want to end it. I have found things worth living for again. If traditional medicine fails you, seek something different. If you don't like your situation then change it. I stated above that I cannot work right now...I hate not being supermanboychef. Sobriety has taught me that I do not need to be in order to effect changes that are beneficial in my life.

That all being said; I don't keep reservations in my mind of when I am going to use my drugs of choice. That is what slips up the non abstinence based sober person. I don't think up situations that it would be okay to use a speedball, I don't think of situations that I would let it slide to be around it. If you are using heroin or cocaine you are out of my life. period. I have too much to lose, my sobriety being the main thing.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to start an off-topic discussion, what I say is just my opinion and it's completely alright if one doesn't agree with it.

100% abstinence is not impossible. The question is, is it even worth trying to achieve? Yes, you can force yourself in all kinds of ways in order to achieve something, but is our life really to achieve something no matter how much it makes us suffer?

Being a person of science, I've come to the conclusion that our life as we know it has absolutely no purpose, no plan or anything like it contrary to what society and religion would like you to believe. Now, when I say that people think I'm implying that life is just a miserable existence and it's something bad. Yes, that's what you can take away from that, but there's also a positive side to it: it gives us freedom. Freedom to basically do anything, because in the end it won't matter anyway, so it doesn't matter what it is that you choose to do. Yeah, it makes it okay to kill someone and all that, but you have to agree that if we lived by no rules whatsoever, then it'd be too chaotic and would make everyone's life worse. So I would put it this way: you're free to do whatever you like as long as it doesn't negatively affect other people. And that's the main principle I live by. I stopped trying to fit in the way society sees it. I'm still a productive member of society, but really only because I have to give something to receive something (food, electricity etc). If everything was free I'd probably stop working, although I admit that I enjoy my job when monetary gain is taken out of the equation.

Now the reason I'm saying all this is because when you've realized all that, it is easy to see that there is really no point in trying to achieve 100% abstinence just for the sake of it or just because you don't know any better. I definitely see where you're coming from, Erikmen, and if you feel that even one glass is one too many, so to speak, then that's quite alright. If you've come to terms with complete abstinence (except caffeine and nicotine) and it doesn't bother you - I'm really glad and happy for you. Sadly, that is not the case for many people including me. I think about drugs all the time. From dawn to dusk. I'm not high all the time and I don't like being high all the time, especially when working, but I like being high at some points in my day to day life. I usually like to do it before bed or after I've done everything I had planned for the day. I don't mind not doing the famous wake 'n bake practice, nor do I mind abstaining for the better part of the day, but I can't stand the thought of abstaining all the time. It drives me insane.

That said, I decided that complete sobriety is out of the question, at least at this point in my life. I just need to find ways to minimize harms (both physical, mental and interpersonal) associated with it, and in that case I think it's no worse than being 100% clean. I mean in the end, if all I really do is get high in the comfort of my home, alone, don't affect anyone by doing so, don't miss work, then who the fuck cares? Oh, the government does, but fuck them. They can suck a fat one for all I care. This is why I've started experimenting with daily opioid use, because I know I couldn't live long if I continued drinking the way I used to. And with complete sobriety out of the question, I figured the least I can do is substitute alcohol with something healthier and something that doesn't impair me in the way alcohol does. And it helped me limit my drinking to 4-5 times a month, sometimes even less often. I know a lot of you'd say "well, cannabis is perfect for that, using opioids is too risky", but I don't like weed. I smoke it a few times a year, but that's it. I don't like the mental impairment it causes and I don't like feeling foggy the next day, because my work requires cognitive sharpness most of all. Opioids don't do any of that and anyone who has tried them knows they feel absolutely heavenly, so it removes any and all cravings for something else.

And this kind of harm reduction, as OP talks about, is what I feel should be the first step in case of an addiction. Yes, it's good to be completely clean, but in some cases it is unrealistic and in all honesty pointless to try to achieve if it causes immense suffering. Life is to be enjoyed, after all.

Thanks for reading my long comment, those who had the patience to.

 

[belligerent drunk]

I don't know why it doesn't let me effectively edit long posts, first of all not showing my text in the edit window and then if I copy-paste it and correct it, it doesn't accept the edit saying I didn't write anything at all. Anyone know a way around that? Anyway, I'm forced to double-post to add to my post.

What I want to add is that maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, but I'm not saying all this to discourage people trying to get and stay clean, or to justify destructive addictions for those who are addicted. No. What I'm saying is that if you really feel there is no other way, then go ahead and use, but try your hardest to make it so your use doesn't negatively affect your or other people's lives.

 

[Erikmen]

I do relate to a lot of things you've said in your previous post.

Basically, after coming in terms with yourself it's mostly about dealing with what we learn to accept. We know what has destroyed our lives. Resolving that issue properly gives you space to do whatever you want, from exercises to nicotine.

Being committed 100% with abstinence it's an ideal. Even if you do so, there are other sort of addictions. Sex, gambling, smoking, eating, etc, etc.

So what nicotine represents for me could be what MJ seems right for someone else or a glass of champagne if the person is not or has not been an alcoholic. When there's no need to live the life as if you once lived while addicted. You feel it's okay and that there's no further issues nor lies with whatever you decide to let in.

I believe it's also the relationship you build with yourself that counts and whatever it is that makes your life worth living when you are already distanced from what was ruining you.

I know people who have quit heroin for decades but have no problems in smoking weed but at the same time would not smoke a cigarette. At the end, it's the same logic with different perspectives.

Different perspectives about living sober. You can be sober and still do things that other people wouldn't consider 100% sobriety. As long as it's not a problem for you.

At some point I suppose we just know when we are following the right track.

 

[manboychef]

I can totally appreciate your standpoint b.drunk. I would subscribe to your newsletter if you had one. Eloquently put, and my sentiments exactly. I don't obsess about drugs anymore...however I do know when I lower dose in xanax, or I go over the time that I was to take them. The point you make about it negatively affecting your life, or others lives is extremely poignant. I believe the people that abstinence based sobriety are the all or nothing types of folks. If your on a straightaway you put the pedal to the floor. I am not one of those people. I like to observe and think about situations before I place myself in them....unfortunately I have a terrible track history of doing benzos and opiates together and waking up in bad situations. Now controlled use...that is a topic for discussion. Is it possible to control a raging habit and bring it back to being just a wolf in sheeps clothing, and lastly to a spring lamb? For me, I know if I even am near opiates and cocaine I will be headed for a rig....so for me I cannot control the habits I have allowed to become raging.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Is it possible to control a raging habit and bring it back to being just a wolf in sheeps clothing, and lastly to a spring lamb? For me, I know if I even am near opiates and cocaine I will be headed for a rig....so for me I cannot control the habits I have allowed to become raging.

That's a very tough question in my opinion. I guess the blanket answer would be "depends on the person", but I believe that in any case it is too risky to try if other options are still available. Some people change over time, so perhaps one could be able to exercise more self-control with their DOC as they age, but I don't think that applies to everyone. It does to my father, though - when I was a young teenager, I remember he'd drink quite a lot (alcoholism runs in the family, I guess); still in a high-functioning manner, but in a little bit of excess. Nowadays he still enjoys drinking, but he does it in a very controlled way, which still amazes and surprises me, I personally can't imagine showing that kind of restraint, but then again he's twice older than me.

So with that said, if really everything else fails, then I guess the person has no choice but to try and focus on using their DOC responsibly. I think it also depends on what the person uses their DOC for - what they look for in the high, but then again if said person has been known to heavily abuse the drug, then most likely the reasons are less than benign. But in any case, if the person can manage using their DOC in a stable manner, maybe with a little bit of excess, instead of trying to be 100% abstinent and failing to do so every now and again and wreaking complete havoc, then that's still a better scenario in my opinion. "If they can" being the main catch here...

I subscribe to the thought that getting clean is easy, now living your life clean is the hard part. Many of us who started abusing find something in the high that they can't elsewhere; I do. So taking that away (100% abstinence) puts too much stress on an already weakened mind. This is why I find maintenance treatments a very good idea: methadone and especially buprenorphine in the case of opioids. Anecdotally, it lets a big portion of people start being productive while still feeling stable or even good. And there's really nothing wrong with a person being slightly high if it doesn't impair them too much and doesn't result in dangerous situations; it's not a moral problem. Because really, when you're done with your week of torture from kicking the habit, you're still left in the ruins called "your life" that you were trying to escape from in the first place, and it's only harder to fix it if you have to deal with cravings and PAWS all along.

Another thing I wanted to add is that I may be wrong, but I think those people who have it in them will drop the substituting habit altogether at some point, it's just a matter of time (like Erikmen, for example?). If a person is one of those all or nothing types, then being somewhere in the middle won't be enough anyway and knowing that they've already made it so far away from their DOC, the "nothing" option may seem more feasible and easy to achieve than going back to the "all". A transition more often than not is easier than going from one extreme to the other overnight.

A lot of speculation in my post, so don't get too angry if I get something wrong, and again sorry for it being so long. Thanks for the compliment by the way, manboychef. I'm not much of a writer though!

 

[Erikmen]

That's a very tough question in my opinion. I guess the blanket answer would be "depends on the person", but I believe that in any case it is too risky to try if other options are still available. Some people change over time, so perhaps one could be able to exercise more self-control with their DOC as they age, but I don't think that applies to everyone.(...) I remember he'd drink quite a lot (alcoholism runs in the family, I guess); still in a high-functioning manner, but in a little bit of excess. Nowadays he still enjoys drinking, but he does it in a very controlled way, which still amazes and surprises me, I personally can't imagine showing that kind of restraint, but then again he's twice older than me.

So with that said, if really everything else fails, then I guess the person has no choice but to try and focus on using their DOC responsibly. I think it also depends on what the person uses their DOC for - what they look for in the high, but then again if said person has been known to heavily abuse the drug, then most likely the reasons are less than benign. But in any case, if the person can manage using their DOC in a stable manner, maybe with a little bit of excess, instead of trying to be 100% abstinent and failing to do so every now and again and wreaking complete havoc, then that's still a better scenario in my opinion. "If they can" being the main catch here...

I subscribe to the thought that getting clean is easy, now living your life clean is the hard part. Many of us who started abusing find something in the high that they can't elsewhere; I do. So taking that away (100% abstinence) puts too much stress on an already weakened mind. This is why I find maintenance treatments a very good idea: methadone and especially buprenorphine in the case of opioids. Anecdotally, it lets a big portion of people start being productive while still feeling stable or even good. And there's really nothing wrong with a person being slightly high if it doesn't impair them too much and doesn't result in dangerous situations; it's not a moral problem. Because really, when you're done with your week of torture from kicking the habit, you're still left in the ruins called "your life" that you were trying to escape from in the first place, and it's only harder to fix it if you have to deal with cravings and PAWS all along.

Another thing I wanted to add is that I may be wrong, but I think those people who have it in them will drop the substituting habit altogether at some point, it's just a matter of time (like Erikmen, for example?). If a person is one of those all or nothing types, then being somewhere in the middle won't be enough anyway and knowing that they've already made it so far away from their DOC, the "nothing" option may seem more feasible and easy to achieve than going back to the "all". A transition more often than not is easier than going from one extreme to the other overnight.

A lot of speculation in my post, so don't get too angry if I get something wrong, and again sorry for it being so long. Thanks for the compliment by the way, manboychef. I'm not much of a writer though!

No. I think I got it. I used to think that I could be in the middle. I used methadone for almost 8 years after gone through hell.
So my life was super normal if I'd compare with the previous attitude problems and hardcore addiction.

But 8 years and getting old at the same time made me think I was running into deep problems. Not only side effects but tolerance problems, not being able to keep up with the maintenance routine while working 10-12 hours a day and kids waiting for me at home.

So I decided to go all the way. But that was impossible. How could I manage doing what my doctor insisted in saying I wouldn't make it through the first month?! My own doctor! But I did it. I was in hospital, had the worst 30 days you can ever imagine. I am talking about withdrawals for more than 4 weeks. And now I look back and see that this was the easy part.
Maintenance is another story. You get depressed, can't work. Lose your social skills, and suddenly you see yourself going back on time when self esteem wasn't even part of the game.

So I had to stop. I got Seroquel prescribed and no benzos, no intermediate painkillers. And the worst is when I had to do my endoscopy. Nothing was allowed.

Of course I was all against it. I should have given something to deal with all this lethargy, lack of energy and so on.
But I learned right here that you can do that on your own. So slowly getting into exercises, NSA guided me through this and so did Sekio at the time, when I still needed to find something that made me happy like a hobby.

Excellent advises. Like the one I had to test my testosterone levels. God Bless some BLighers! So more energy. And the exercises started to become a routine. Although I kept on drinking coffee and switched to nicotine Nordic patches (Snus) I started to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The thing is, it takes time and people around you don't always appreciate your new you. But it was about my life. Day by day, month by month, now I'm 11 months+ sober. And believe me I have my happy moments. Sex became enjoyable again and I'm still adapting.

I'm avoiding incredible possibilities just to keep me from suffering and going through all these stages again. So I have to turn down something real good and apparently innocent but the entire thing is about going to square one when you are already old. So I'll do it.

It's a self preservation thing. At the end all we want is to feel good about ourselves and know that it can make other people happy too, in my case my kids!

Great posting, good level of discussions here. Thanks for that!

Erik

 

[belligerent drunk]

That is also a very wise way to approach things and that's actually what I meant in my last paragraph - that some decide it's not worth it anymore to be on something all the time and quit altogether. (my late congratulations on quitting to you, by the way!)

Of course, there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problem, because we are all so different. Hobbies are another thing I wanted to address, but forgot. If we look at the difference between addiction and dependence, then in a few words dependence is a pharmacological condition where you need a drug to be present in your body or otherwise you go into withdrawal, whereas addiction is a bit different in that you may not be dependent on the drug at the time, but your mind is always thinking about it and it affects your life in a certain (often negative) way - there is a strong desire/mental need to consume the drug on a regular basis.

Now I see dependence as being a pretty simple thing, somebody who is dependent can go through withdrawal and that's it, they're free. Addiction doesn't work like that. I see the basis for addiction as some kind of void in one's mind that they're trying to fill with something pleasurable. And I believe that here is the main difference: you can't substitute a drug with something different in case of dependence (you'll still be in withdrawal), but you can substitute the drug with something else in case of addiction. One of those substitutions could be some kind of hobby, a significant other, work - you get my point. That makes it, in my opinion, important to focus on finding that "something" to fill the void when attempting sobriety. I've been searching for "that" myself for quite some time, but no luck just yet.

Anyway, it seems like I'm getting a bit off-topic here, so my apologies. I just feel a strange need to type this out as I've been thinking about this for some time now, but haven't had the opportunity to share my thoughts with others.

 

[Erikmen]

That is also a very wise way to approach things and that's actually what I meant in my last paragraph - that some decide it's not worth it anymore to be on something all the time and quit altogether. (my late congratulations on quitting to you, by the way!)

Of course, there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problem, because we are all so different. Hobbies are another thing I wanted to address, but forgot. If we look at the difference between addiction and dependence, then in a few words dependence is a pharmacological condition where you need a drug to be present in your body or otherwise you go into withdrawal, whereas addiction is a bit different in that you may not be dependent on the drug at the time, but your mind is always thinking about it and it affects your life in a certain (often negative) way - there is a strong desire/mental need to consume the drug on a regular basis.

Now I see dependence as being a pretty simple thing, somebody who is dependent can go through withdrawal and that's it, they're free. Addiction doesn't work like that. I see the basis for addiction as some kind of void in one's mind that they're trying to fill with something pleasurable. And I believe that here is the main difference: you can't substitute a drug with something different in case of dependence (you'll still be in withdrawal), but you can substitute the drug with something else in case of addiction. One of those substitutions could be some kind of hobby, a significant other, work - you get my point. That makes it, in my opinion, important to focus on finding that "something" to fill the void when attempting sobriety. I've been searching for "that" myself for quite some time, but no luck just yet.

Anyway, it seems like I'm getting a bit off-topic here, so my apologies. I just feel a strange need to type this out as I've been thinking about this for some time now, but haven't had the opportunity to share my thoughts with others.

Exactly b.drunk. And thanks btw.
Of course. Somehow like insulin. The body needs it to process sugar and is dependent so to avoid symptoms similar to withdrawals. An analogy to represent what could make the body dependent but not addicted.

Instead, addiction would be a state of mind which comprehends - not the drug itself - but the entire context aligned to everything that is involved with the ritual, psychologically speaking. So that makes everything connected, reason for which we talk a lot about triggers. The connections are always related to pleasure and it's complicated as it becomes part of someone's routine.

So trying to find something that can fill the void could be an 'everlasting' task with its complexity but still complicated as it takes time for someone to find the right thing.

So what counts is what happens during the process when we suddenly realize that certain actions may make you feel okay and cozy so to speak. At the end we tend to realize that the thing is the process itself where we relearn to take pleasure for small things that we wouldn't consider but it can be these small things that makes you okay and not willing to go back to your previous self where addiction brought so many problems and never ending situations.

Once we achieve the quitting phase, w/d's and while trying to figure out could or not be replaced so that we don't feel as miserable, I suppose our endorphin get back to work (at some point) and make us relearn how to take joy for the simplest things we had forgotten that it could be interesting.

I must confess it's a very complex issue considering that we are all different and our experiences don't always lead us to the same conclusion but all I can say now is that once you've determined what you need and in the process you realize the healthy life is what is making you survive, you slowly progress to accept life as it is. Instead of the illusion we once believed that would be no match to the life's daily challenges.

This is an enriching discussion. And definitely your posts made us think about the possibilities.
Like you said ' there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problem, because we are all so different', which is very true.

 

[cicerogrinds]

I remember when I used to go to the methadone clinic I had 2 counsellors there that were trying to preach that complete abstinence for some just isn't attainable, due to various reasons..they were more preaching harm reduction which I am more in favor of..I don't see a big deal if a former hardcore crackhead got clean and now occasionally smokes pot a few times a week to take the edge off..or the former heroin addict that now drinks alcohol on the weekend now..these counsellors were research freaks and they said the studies of addicts that tried and maintained 100% abstinence were quite depressing..they said les than 10% of addicts were able to achieve this so they said a different approach needs to be made..they ended up losing their job due to this as well but do you agree?is complete abstinence impossible for some of you?

For me, I don't think I will ever be 100% abstinent.i tried that and lasted 16 months before I started drinking here and there..

this is me.. been completely clean off heroin for 2 yrs now.... i drink on the weekends sometimes

 

[Erikmen]

Good for you! Whatever works and makes you happy.

I'm happy with my life, proud of my achievements. I have my bad days, try to keep an open mind, don't judge.
Nevertheless, I enjoy having my kids around and going out with them. That's a miracle for me, a big one.

My family, wife and friends had always said that I tend to surprise people being the exception every rule has.
That's not necessarily a good thing at all.

I survived after being in a 48 hours coma when the prognosis was certain that if I'd ever lived I would have to rely on machines to breathe. So good and unexpected things have also happened, but never without a good fight.

I suppose everyone has its own view of success. So far I've been proud of mine. I do recognize victory on others like yours.
Like you I have also been on methadone so I understand how it works and of course I do agree totally with harm reduction.

However that does not prevent me from wanting to do the impossible as long as I'm fine and realistic with my goals.
I'd be honored if I could be the 0,5% of the statistic that says I can do it and be fine as I'm doing so far.
I guess essentially we are all very similar meaning we live a day at a time.
That's the achievement for today, and I'm okay with that.

All the best!
Erik