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The Big and Bangin' Pseudo-Advanced Drug Chemistry, Pharmacology and More Thread, V.2

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There's something to do with receptor colocalization too, involving mGluR's forming complexes with 5HT2A, which switches it toward a different pathways often involving transcription rather than direct G-signalling. And then Glu receptors themselves can change affinities/ligand bias based on bonding with shit like Neto's. Wouldn't say it's sophsitry so much as an incomplete science (along with the rest of them =D )
 
Amphetamine has a lot of usage as a chiral base, I don't know why it's suprising.

I'd have thought there would be difficulty obtaining it/getting any licensing required but then again I'm not a chemist.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCH-50911

It is a GABA-b antagonist, reverses a GHB overdose and precipitates convulsions in GHB-dependant animals. Yet it apparently is an anticonvulsant, which I find unusual. Any thoughts or explanations?
 
There's CDSA paperwork to be filed out for sure, but it doesn't limit a company like Glaxo from using it.

Think about it, there are in fact companies that use safrole and benzaldehyde and the like - controlled chemcials - but yet they still keep accepting deliveries. You just have to be serious enough about controlling access to the "hot" compounds.

Yet it apparently is an anticonvulsant, which I find unusual. Any thoughts or explanations?

Maybe there's other sites it acts on?

The study doesn't seem very kind to the rats, though.
Thirteen of 30 rats died during the intoxication procedure, likely due to overdose

At that level of GHB administration... you're talking about the human equivalent of consuming several hundred mL of GHB a day. They report killing all the GBL rats with overdoses. Something tells me the study could hav e been done a little better.
 
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Thanks for linking, interesting article.

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This compound shows that the nitrogen is not needed for reuptake inhibition. I was really really surprised when I saw this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-2172

methyl%202-cyclopentyl-2-(3%2C4-dichlorophenyl)acetate.png


Also similar things have been done for cocaine analogues:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropoxane

Changing the N-methyl for CH2 results in only a less than 6 fold loss in activity. I would've thought it would utterly kill any activity...
 
This just reinforces that the phenidates should be put together with pipradrol or cocaine rather than amphetamines, and that the amphetamine backbone in it is just a mere coincidence...
 
Although there are some cocaine analogues lacking the carbomethoxy group and they still retain activity. This suggests: 1) the carbomethoxy group is not necessary and 2) the nitrogen is not necessary and it doesn't even need to be replaced with an electronegative atom, a carbon suffices.

If a simple carbon skeleton suffices, then maybe steric factors play a way bigger role than originally thought.
 
i can't really understand your first sentence, that "although" is confusing me, but anyway there are active phenidate analogues (loosely) which are without the carbomethoxy too, such as 2-benzylpiperidine and desoxypipradrol. benzylcyclohexane (would that be the name) is definitely inactive though...

a study testing these drugs for affinity at the cocaine site at DAT would be interesting
 
Is 2-benzylpiperidine a reuptake blocker only though? It could very well act as a releasing agent. For desoxypipradol the phenyl ring could in some ways act as a bioisostere for the carbomethoxy group?
 
I'm the one who got them to invent 2-BzP (2-benzylpiperidine) way back, as I was sure its uncanny similarities to MPH (with an amphetamine benzyl methylene to boot) would make it an utter shoo in for research chemical of the year. Imagine my chagrin when somebody makes it, and it's utterly and widely deplored as utter shiite!!! How embarrassing.

But yeah, as far as MPH and desoxypipradrol relate to each other, wouldn't their carbomethoxy and phenyl rings be the definition of bioisosteric?
 
But yeah, as far as MPH and desoxypipradrol relate to each other, wouldn't their carbomethoxy and phenyl rings be the definition of bioisosteric?

Only if they had the same mode of action, which seems to be disputed.
 
Is seems like to me that it should mean they are 'bioisosteric' if they have the same biological effect as each other with the same two different functional groups in the same places in two otherwise identical molecules. Clearly, they are both powerful CNS stimulants. But, upon closer inspection, MPH may be a pure NT reuptake inhibitor, while desoxypipadrol may be a NT releaser.

Is the mode of that action really the deciding factor? Mightn't it depend on how close you are splitting hairs when settling on a definition for "biological effect" (i.e., in a general sense, yes, they are both powerful CNS stimulants, but on a more hair splitting level, one is possibly a releaser while the other is a reuptake inhibitor?).

Which leads me to the question: Is it possible for a molecule to be both a releaser and a reuptake inhibitor in varying degrees at the same time? In other words, why (or does) this dichotomy have to a be an all or nothing proposition? Seems like I remember reading here somewhere maybe by you, aced126, that releasers are also reuptake inhibitors in so far as they have to fill DAT or SERT or whatever long enough to reverse NT flow anyway.

Must the means and ends match? Why not just the ends? I guess I'm just the kind of guy who focuses on the end results and tries his best to ignore the intermediary mechanism which gives rise to that end. To me, the ends often justify the means, but maybe I'm a Machiavellian psychopath with a small penis, a psychiatric diagnosis or two, an inability to currently procure real MDMA or LSD (which was once my forte of sorts back when we still bought Schedule I drugs on the streets, at rave parties, and in dorm rooms) and a fairly robust ice methamphetamine habit, I dunno.
 
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Is seems like to me that it should mean they are 'bioisosteric' if they have the same biological effect as each other with the same two different functional groups in the same places in two otherwise identical molecules. Clearly, they are both powerful CNS stimulants. But, upon closer inspection, MPH may be a pure NT reuptake inhibitor, while desoxypipadrol may be a NT releaser.

Is the mode of that action really the deciding factor? Mightn't it depend on how close you are splitting hairs when settling on a definition for "biological effect" (i.e., in a general sense, yes, they are both powerful CNS stimulants, but on a more hair splitting level, one is possibly a releaser while the other is a reuptake inhibitor?).

Which leads me to the question: Is it possible for a molecule to be both a releaser and a reuptake inhibitor in varying degrees at the same time? In other words, why (or does) this dichotomy have to a be an all or nothing proposition? Seems like I remember reading here somewhere maybe by you, aced126, that releasers are also reuptake inhibitors in so far as they have to fill DAT or SERT or whatever long enough to reverse NT flow anyway.

Must the means and ends match? Why not just the ends? I guess I'm just the kind of guy who focuses on the end results and tries his best to ignore the intermediary mechanism which gives rise to that end. To me, the ends often justify the means, but maybe I'm a Machiavellian psychopath with a small penis, a psychiatric diagnosis or two, an inability to currently procure real MDMA or LSD (which was once my forte of sorts back when we still bought Schedule I drugs on the streets, at rave parties, and in dorm rooms) and a fairly robust ice methamphetamine habit, I dunno.

I think finding out the intermediate mechanism which results in the observed effect is important if we want to build upon and improve on what we have currently. As a brief example, if we wanted to make a non-neurotoxic stimulant but we did not even know how the stimulant precisely acted upon us to exert its effect, how are we even going to get close to finding out the mechanism of neurotoxicity?
 
Yeah, I agree but I approach pharmacology from a drug's subjective effects as a function of its Kekule structure first and foremost, mainly because I can study those variables because I can see or change its structure and feel what it does for me subjectively but haven't the foggiest notion of how to elucidate any important biochemical markers of a drug with or without a sophisticated biochemistry lab and years of training I don't have.

Yes, I know I could make a pilgrimage to my old university's science library to brush up on the proprietary drug studies (it has been, after all, 20 years!), but I get off more intellectually on coming up with disparate chemical structural commonalities rather than the latest ED50 binding data for sertraline or what not. In other words, I am both basically crazy and lazy, I guess. Not really, though. I mean, I do try to read the stuff you and a couple others have to say about biopharmacology, but still, I don't know what ampakines do or anything still, for example. That's just not the side of the science I find most fascinating. Furthermore, I don't feel the importance of finding out whether a particular stimulant is a NT releaser or reuptake inhibitor as long as they seem pretty much indistinguishable chemically and all feel pretty much great to me. It's a rather narrow approach, yes.
 
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But there are so so many factors in determining a drug's subjective effects. What you're talking about is structure activity relationship within a set of very similar compounds, which, to an extent, can be predicted without a deep understanding of the mechanism of the drug. For example, 4-lipophilic substituents are observed to increase activity in the 2-CX series, and so one could predict that increasing the lipophilicity will increase activity (we can speculate why this is so but until proper binding studies are done and pk data is obtained, it will always be speculation) but correlation does not imply causation, as the saying goes.
 
Why is "dimenhydrinate" (Dramamine) considered a generic drug name? I can find no other instance of a two-drug combination being given a single generic name, but I also know of no other pharmaceutical salt in which both ions are active. Oh except for morphine valerate o whatever.

edit: wait, is it a salt?

Incidentally, is 8-chlorotheophylline more stimulating than caffeine?
 
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Do antagonists/inverse agonists ever get close to increasing neural activity because the amount of auto receptors out number the regular receptors? It seems at some times a partial agonist can work as an antagonist because it's displacing a more efficacious ligand..
 
A very common example of a partial agonist working like an antagonist is buprenorphine, which can produce precipitated withdrawal if taken while some other opioid (full agonist) is still active.
 
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