The Big and Senseless Mass Shooting Thread

[JessFR]

It would not be hard for a novice pilot to pull off, the plaines virtually fly themselves, all you need is the right heading and altitude.
In addition, the hijacker pilots had had flight training beforehand.

Finally, you're assuming you even know how a building is actually supposed to fall in those circumstances. Those buildings are designed not to just topple over or whatever you think. The damage to the buildings support and weakened support structures could easily have collapsed from the fires. Once one goes, the inertia and would very plausibly collapse the rest.

And wtc7 was seriously damaged from the debris from the trade center collapse. Causing fires, which the sprinkler system couldn't stop for one because it ran from city water supply which was damaged by the initial collapse. The damage and fire again compromised the support causing catastrophic failure. If you would just believe that your assumptions about how it SHOULD look could be wrong and look into the evidence, explanations, and lack of evidence for truthist claims. You would see the official explanation is completely credible and consistent and far more plausible than the idea of controlled demolition. Which has no end of problems.

 

[JessFR]

Read a report just now saying this is the 293rd mass shooting in the USA this year.

Is this an acceptable price of "freedom"?

What defines a mass shooting? I've seen too many manipulated statistics to trust them out of hand.

As for jfk, I don't deny that the whole thing is indeed unusual. But the real ballistic evidence unfortunately prevents the possibility of a second gunman. So if there is a conspiracy, it doesn't involve that.

Which is another thing I find insane. It's not enough to assert it's a conspiracy, often it has to be the most elaborate and implausible version of a conspiracy possible.

 

[spacejunk]

I assume that "mass shooting" is the murder (or attempted murder) of 2 or more people.

Regardless of the potential motives someone touting a figure like that could have - and their relative credibility - the question still remains.
It's more interesting to me than digressing into every conspiracy theory ever floated. I mean, I'm sure there's a thread for that.

 

[spacejunk]

Can you elaborate on what those parameters are? I'm genuinely interested in how "mass shooting" is defined (and if different people have different definitions).
As for limiting civilian access to firearms; it worked here in Australia. I'm happy to live in a country that regulated guns, it didn't actually oppress anyone. It was legislation by one of the most conservative right-wing governments in my lifetime, and most Australians polled agreed with it 19 years ago and still agree with it today.

I'd like to hear what other people think, i already knew droppers' opinion on this.

 

[2skeed]

What people don't get is that gun control doesn't prevent shootings because if criminals want to get a gun they will find a way to get it. For example if I wanted a gun all i would have to do is call up my boy and for roughly $500 I can get a fully automatic untraceable Uzi with a 30 round clip. Obviously I have no reason to get one but im just saying that outlawing guns takes guns out of the hands of good people and into the hands of criminals.

 

[spacejunk]

Yeah, but they are cheap and easy to obtain illegally because they are not hard to obtain legally.
Where i live, illegal guns cost as much as a new car.

 

[spacejunk]

What arguments?
I'm interested in generating discussion. Does it make you uncomfortable to discuss these things outside of a dogmatic context?

 

[-=SS=-]

No but the commie rhetoric wears thin after a while brother. All of these young men committing these acts have a few things in common. They are typically white, losers, bad family life, etc.. Maybe we should pay closer attention to those kids in our schools rather than a expedient political solution likely to only make the innocent suffer further.

See, that's called sensible politics.. something that seems to be absolutely lost on many people. It's quite sad to see emotions driving so much of peoples thinking. Perhaps if everyone channeled that emotional energy to these chumps who shoot up schools, you know, help them out when they obviously need a hug.. then we wouldn't find ourselves in this mess. But noooo.. let's go after the guns and punish the 99% of people who don't snap.

 

[spacejunk]

Does it make you uncomfortable to discuss these things outside of a dogmatic context?

No but the commie rhetoric wears thin after a while brother. All of these young men committing these acts have a few things in common. They are typically white, losers, bad family life, etc.. Maybe we should pay closer attention to those kids in our schools rather than a expedient political solution likely to only make the innocent suffer further. What works in Australia will not and cannot work in the U.S. Due to any number of factors. The number one reason your country has so much control over your population and what it buys and consumes is due to the fact that it's an island. Also your population is much more docile and accepting of things at face value or at least that is what your gun legislation tells me. Even if we could ban all guns and live in absolute utopia I still wouldn't want it. The firearm is one of the greatest tools ever invented and has done as much good if not more than it has done bad ime

I'll take that as a "yes".

 

[socko]

I'm curious about guns in Australia. I could google, but would rather keep it in the thread. Does Australia have a hunting season? For reference, the USA has several firearms game hunting seasons during which millions of rural people go out into the bush and harvest game animals. it's part of the culture there and is one of the reasons people oppose gun laws.

Second, what do ranchers do when, for example, a herd of dingos or wild dogs starts slaughtering their lambs and other livestock? In the US, ranchers lose livestock every year to predators and use firesarms to help protect their animals.

Finally, what about home defense? Australia has some remote regions where this must be an issue. In remote regions of the US where the protection of law enforcement is hours away, many keep firearms for protection. It is in some ways still like the Wild West. Home invasion is an issue, especially for women living alone and the elderly. Locals have been known to stalk and attack women living alone. It is uncommon, but it still happens. In many cases, the attackers are not in it for the robbery but for rape.




Gun laws will change in the US as the population becomes more urban but probably not in our generation.

Yeah, but they are cheap and easy to obtain illegally because they are not hard to obtain legally.
Where i live, illegal guns cost as much as a new car.

Even if they are banned, it would take decades before they become uncommon assuming no more are made. Making them in a garage workshop is not taht far-fetched. Somebody with a 3D printer and some shop tools could make something. Somebody with very nice shop tools could make a commercial grade pistol or rifle. Any bored teenager with access to his dad's power tools and a few chemicals could make a powerful zip gun. As a project, even I made a muzzle-loader pirate pistol.
Not mine, but I made something similar when I was 12. In case you're wondering, it did not blow up in my face when I fired it.

No but the commie rhetoric wears thin after a while brother. All of these young men committing these acts have a few things in common. They are typically white, losers, bad family life, etc.. Maybe we should pay closer attention to those kids in our schools rather than a expedient political solution likely to only make the innocent suffer further. What works in Australia will not and cannot work in the U.S. Due to any number of factors. The number one reason your country has so much control over your population and what it buys and consumes is due to the fact that it's an island. Also your population is much more docile and accepting of things at face value or at least that is what your gun legislation tells me. Even if we could ban all guns and live in absolute utopia I still wouldn't want it. The firearm is one of the greatest tools ever invented and has done as much good if not more than it has done bad ime

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Re: Gun control, I think if the goal is to put an end to these type of incidents, the easiest route is to put more armed security guards on campuses. We've seen how difficult it is to get anything done at the federal level with the competing interest groups and the legislative gridlock that results. Therefore we should stop focusing on gun control as the go-to solution as it has proven itself nearly impossible to implement. I think that most people would be in agreement that it should be harder for mentally ill people or radicals to gain weapons legally, and hopefully we will see some legislation on this someday soon. However, for the time being, there should not be any college campuses in this country that don't have a small police force dedicated to protecting the students. This is a solution that is actually feasible in the short term.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

If the whole of the rest of the advanced 'civilised' world was looking at me aghast and telling me I was wrong...I'd examine my psyche.

I cannot be bothered to go into individual arguments. But, America, you are not the only country that hunts. You are not the only country with wide open spaces where law enforcement might take a while to reach. But you are the only country with continual mass murders committed with the aid of gun culture. Not to mention the 30000 gun suicides a year.

This thread is as shocking to right thinking people as the incident that brought it about.

Congratulations. You are in a league of your own. USA! USA!

Good grief Charlie Brown.

PS No campus in my country needs its own police force.

 

[Droppersneck]

Turns out freedom isn't free...

 

[socko]

If the whole of the rest of the advanced 'civilised' world was looking at me aghast and telling me I was wrong...I'd examine my psyche.

I cannot be bothered to go into individual arguments. But, America, you are not the only country that hunts. You are not the only country with wide open spaces where law enforcement might take a while to reach. But you are the only country with continual mass murders committed with the aid of gun culture. Not to mention the 30000 gun suicides a year.

This thread is as shocking to right thinking people as the incident that brought it about.

Congratulations. You are in a league of your own. USA! USA!

Good grief Charlie Brown.

PS No campus in my country needs its own police force.

People I talk to here are all in favor of banning guns in the US. A ban would no doubt have an effect, but it would be complicated and difficult to bring about. It might not happen in our lifetimes. Americans prefer to have their guns and live a little dangerously. Other than an outright ban, what would be your solution? When did Britain pass gun laws?

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

PS No campus in my country needs its own police force.

Yes, we've established that the situation in the USA is different and less desirable than in the UK and other nations. The issue is twofold: 1) there is no way to reel in the amount of guns that are floating around the nation currently, and 2) we have a major segment of the population that fiercely opposes any effort to change the gun laws, largely as a result of #1. It's not really fair to compare the USA to other countries because what we have just doesn't exist elsewhere.

You're acting as if we like living in a land with a high rate of gun crime. The truth is that we have an expansive country made up of regions with very different cultural attitudes. People in the South who advocate for guns aren't advocating for a world where their children are more likely to die from gun violence. They honestly believe that limiting the availability of guns at this point will make them more likely to die from violence as they can't protect themselves. They see that everyone around them is armed and they want to be too. It's a short-term way of thinking but that's human nature.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Turns out freedom isn't free...

Freedom or death?
We shall all be moved.
Va(I)nglorious

Or..
..freedom is freedom of the need to be free.

People I talk to here are all in favor of banning guns in the US. A ban would no doubt have an effect, but it would be complicated and difficult to bring about. It might not happen in our lifetimes. Americans prefer to have their guns and live a little dangerously. Other than an outright ban, what would be your solution? When did Britain pass gun laws?

I am glad I am not American, not part of that psyche, and therefore not honour bound to offer a solution (y'all wouldn't listen anyway if I offered one). Interestingly though, your right to bear arms can be traced back to Henry II Assize of Arms, 1181. But we've been banning them ever since.

Yes, we've established that the situation in the USA is different and less desirable than in the UK and other nations. The issue is twofold: 1) there is no way to reel in the amount of guns that are floating around the nation currently, and 2) we have a major segment of the population that fiercely opposes any effort to change the gun laws, largely as a result of #1. It's not really fair to compare the USA to other countries because what we have just doesn't exist elsewhere.

You're acting as if we like living in a land with a high rate of gun crime. The truth is that we have an expansive country made up of regions with very different cultural attitudes. People in the South who advocate for guns aren't advocating for a world where their children are more likely to die from gun violence. They honestly believe that limiting the availability of guns at this point will make them more likely to die from violence as they can't protect themselves. They see that everyone around them is armed and they want to be too. It's a short-term way of thinking but that's human nature.

Yes, you have a shitload of arms floating around and your (nothing personal) psyche is fucked. That short term thinking sure does lead to some long term dying.

 

[One Thousand Words]

Turns out freedom isn't free...

being nice to your neighbour is free though.

American culture is one of selfishness and greed. You have been brainwashed to think that everyone else is out to get you and accept that it is right to kill another human in the name of justice.

The rest of the world has locks on their windows and spare chairs in their backyard. They invite people around for a meal and share their BBQ, and lock their doors if they don't want people to steal their shit.

I hunted my whole life and never saw the skill in using an automatic rifle.

 

[alasdairm]

indeed.

the issue is hard to discuss because the pro-gun lobby turns absolutely any attempt to talk about doing something - let alone actually doing something - into an attack on the second amendment. i don't see anybody here arguing for any constitutional amendment to repeal the second amendment. or even anything close to it.

people are simply asking 'are there some things we can do to stop crazies like this guy obtaining a gun which makes the impact of his attack so much more efficiently murderous?' but no, because the very idea of even having a discussion makes ted nugent shit his pants.

from 5 facts about the NRA and guns in America:

Although a measure to expand background checks on gun sales failed in the Senate last year, Americans who live in a household where they or someone else is an NRA member overwhelmingly favored the idea of making private gun sales and sales at gun shows subject to such checks. About three-quarters (74%) backed these expanded checks compared with 26% who opposed them. But far fewer people in NRA households supported proposed bans on assault-style weapons or high-capacity ammunition clips.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

Bullshit, the pro-gun and anti-gun lobbies are as bad as each other. Both twist and distort the truth to their own ends, both will disregard logic and evidence that are contrary to their predetermined beliefs. I hate the gun control argument more than just about any political issue because both sides are complete crap, and their little war with each other just leaves other people caught in the crossfire. I don't even bother explaining my gun control beliefs anymore. It's all so pointless.

Obama's right to be frustrated, but he's just part of the problem too. So obsessed with trying to limit what KIND of guns people have ignoring the fact that what really matters is WHO has a gun. Nobody cares about the truth, and everyone cares about spree shootings at the total disregard to the actual numbers and statistics. 1 person killed in a mass shooting equals probably about 10,000 people killed in more mundane and low profile killings. So gun control policy is designed to fight mass shootings, even if the number of people actually dead each year is the same or worse. Then you have the pro-gun side and their ridiculous solution of having more guns. Most clearly flawed by the fact many Americans do not WANT to have a gun.

Fuck it all man.

 

[JessFR]

Australia only has a couple rights protected by constitution, Australian "rights" are almost all written in ordinary law subject to modification or change at any time. And aren't quite as broad as their American equivalents.