In the end all that matters is relationships?

[-=SS=-]

Something that has bothered me since early childhood has crept up again on me after a powerful dream recently, and after contemplating what spirituality really means to me and other human beings. The spiritual path and journey to the top of the mountain often seems like a lonely journey, indeed the final experience of Enlightenment where you experience the totality I've heard described in these words, "If this is God, then God must be very lonely". I've always had this niggling feeling that deep down perhaps this is one of the reasons why we exist.. it's a chance for the totality to diversify itself and try to experience something that is not itself by forgetting what it is.

Following this through to the modern world it seems like one of the great unacknowledged tragedies of our time is loneliness and isolation. We live such fast paced artificial lives where work and money dominate our time and energy, leaving us little time to pursue friendships and community with other people. Throw in to the mix that jobs often require us to move away or hop around geographically often and this leaves little time to nurture meaningful relationships with others. My grandparents generation still retain a sense of community and lifelong friendships within their villages and small towns, yet my parents generation were atomized, and my generation atomized further still. My friends from school are all over the country/world, and the people I've befriended now at college will all be going their separate ways in the next month. This upsets me at a deep level and always has done, right from the start when I left primary school to go to secondary school.

I read two articles recently that stoked this line of thinking in me. One was about rats and addiction where they found that rats in a happy, social and fulfilling environment shunned cocaine laced water.. whereas isolated rats became addicted and died. The other was about death bed confessions of people and the number one regret was not spending enough time with people and focusing too much on work. It really upsets me because it seems so obvious and yet we allow 'life' to get in the way.

We like to champion the destruction of the Christian religion in the West as some irrelevance and yet the church was one medium of community that allowed people to come together. We no longer have village greens, street parties don't often happen, and kids don't use streets as they did in my parents generation. We've destroyed the wild green spaces and locked our children inside because of paranoia about pedo's, removing a medium of community for them, and the only remaining community for children growing up is school and college. I know deep down a lot of people, myself included, came to college not so much for the degree but to just be around others of a similar age. Community. We knew that going in to the work environment wouldn't even compare in terms of potential for friendship and community.

I'm not sure what question I'd like to pose to you all here, if there is indeed one. Perhaps I just needed to get this off my chest, but I would like to hear your opinions and stories of how you have experienced friendship/community in your lives. Or what we can do to stem the tide of this increasing isolation, falseness of the artificial corporate constructs that supplement our needs, and encourage real community again?

--

In the dream a presence interacted with the dream/me directly.. it responded to my lamentations by forcibly moving me and showing me, "The only thing that matters in this life is relationships to other people." I woke up deeply moved.

 

[Mysterie]

i really like the way this guy sees things, really engaging and it resonates with me a lot, i saw a short video of him talking about 'what to do about loneliness'? i have found watching his stuff really opening me up to stopping and seeing stuff in different ways, really helpful here. you might find it interesting, i pretty much agree with his sentiment.

i dont understand how enlightenment is lonely because every time i have heard that experience described it is usually about seeing that everything is one, all barriers and seperation between this face mask and identity and every other expression of the divine are broken down and there is a feeling of complete union with oneness, or stillness or emptiness.

i also don't believe in the destruction of christianity or any other religion, everyone should be free to do as they desire, and none of us are any better than anyone else. i get that there is the social aspect, but when it is taken seriously i find that the community replaces friendships with non-christian people, so they are basically surrounded by yes-men who just reinforce the ideas they already have.

i think our relationship to ourself comes before relationships to other people, right now i subscribe to the idea that we are all alone, we are all in our own worlds, we are lost in a world of language and symbols which cannot represent real truth or love. we can bridge that gap momentarily, we can enjoy the presence and company of others, but once there is a need for companionship or friendship, the relationship dynamic has changed.

 

[malakaix]

I spoke briefly about this sense of isolation in the 'beliefs' thread in P&S in the spiritual sense, with the experience of a crushing unnerving sense of absolute isolation as you come into the awareness of being everything while looking out towards the void and the infinite nothingness. I know there's a few that know what im talking about here, and the pursuit of self-interest just lose's its appeal after that and relationships with others begins to take on a whole new paradigm.

The west feels like it's falling into a slow descent of cultural marxism with the disintegration of the family unit, traditions, religion and communities that have acted as the building blocks of modern society, weather this will pave the way for something better i don't know. But i feel like with the rise of technology that has paradoxically brought has more connected then ever while at the same time leaving us totally disconnected from one another and the ever increasing need for 'individuality' and pursuit of money, people are inadvertently cutting themselves off from each other.

We like to champion the destruction of the Christian religion in the West as some irrelevance and yet the church was one medium of community that allowed people to come together.

When i spent some time travelling around, the countries i visited that still maintained strong religious backgrounds often had the greatest sense of community and family values. Because of this there was a greater emphasis on relationships and friendships, i was welcomed strongly in these countries by strangers i had never met.. these countries were also poorer then more developed ones, i would even say one could draw a comparison between a countries economical well-being and their relationship with community.

I too have been pondering this question for some time, when i came back to the west i felt that sense of isolation once again that has permeated our culture, i have had to go through the agonizing pain of learning detachment when it comes to people because too often the connections i make with others don't have the support of a wider community, life moves fast and people come and go into your life.. we all meet with each other in some form of social arena only to retreat back to our castles of solitude.

I think us living in first world countries have the opportunity to see both sides of the coin.. the potential to earn more, own more, be more and do more has to be tempered and not allowed to fester into an obsession where the side-effect is a total disconnection from each other. What i observed in poorer countries was people had the disposition that they couldn't get ahead financially.. this obsession didn't exist because it never had the means to begin with.

I sometimes think the phrase 'You can be whatever you want to be' in the spirit of freedom and self-actualization has actually created more anxiety among people then ever before, especially in societies that perpetuate it such as capitalistic ones. And it's a ruthless fight to the top..

 

[Xorkoth]

Something that has bothered me since early childhood has crept up again on me after a powerful dream recently, and after contemplating what spirituality really means to me and other human beings. The spiritual path and journey to the top of the mountain often seems like a lonely journey, indeed the final experience of Enlightenment where you experience the totality I've heard described in these words, "If this is God, then God must be very lonely". I've always had this niggling feeling that deep down perhaps this is one of the reasons why we exist.. it's a chance for the totality to diversify itself and try to experience something that is not itself by forgetting what it is.

I've had this experience, where the totality of existence dropped away leaving a single infinitely lonely point of pure consciousness. Since then I have come to believe what you're saying, that the reason for existence is for the universe to diversify itself, as you say, and forget that it's a singular totality.

I have always found relationships to be one of, if not the most, important things in life. Forming close connections with other people is such a beautiful thing.

 

[Ninae]

Sadly, in this world, I think money can be more important than relationships even if you're not materialistic. It can buy you freedom and other things of real emotional value, including escape from bad relationships, while relationships can trap you if they're not mostly positive which is often the case in this world. If it was paradise, love would be all that mattered, but in this world what we call love tends to be only temporary, lead to loss and betreyal, and many negative emotions and experiences.

Marriage and family-life tends to be portrayed in an idyllic way, but it's hard, really. One of the last things I want is to be trapped that way and I think romantic love can be a dangerous drug that can ruin your life. Maybe that sounds cynical, I know it's mostly men who say things like that, but I've seen a lot of unhappiness in close relationships and how people can find great relief in being alone (my grandmother seemed relieved when my grandfather died after controlling her for 60 years).

I wonder if children are always worth it, or if 5 years of bliss is worth 15 years of misery, like it can turn out to be. I would think that can be a fine line for many and that regrets do occur. But surely raising a family is one of the hardest things in this world and it's about time it becomes recognised as such.

 

[socko]

Part of it is the difficulty of our era. Survival is more difficult now than it was for our grandparents' generation. After WWII, anybody who showed up for work on time and sober was pretty much guaranteed a job with a high enough income to live a relatively prosperous life. For us, it is much harder. People with PhDs are out of work, struggling, barely making rent bagging groceries or driving taxi cabs. So, while we struggle to avoid homelessness, love is difficult to find and having a family is out of the question unless you're the whitetrash breeders in the first five minutes of the movie Idiocracy. Our grandparents already owned a house and had a family by the same age. That's part of the problem.

I spent the last year almost completely isolated in the desert living mostly off the grid. I am not attracted ot money or materialism. I had a gf with me for a while, but living with only ourselves for company made me realize how little we had in common and things aobut the other's personality become apparent. Her idea of fun was to drive her car 50 miles to her uncle's house in the nearest town and watch television. My idea of fun was hiking up a nearby mountain and watching the baby eagles in their nest in a tree top or sitting and reading a book or writing. She was always wanting to spend money on stupid things. And she started instisting on having children, for example. Despite the fact that on the day we met, I explained carefully to her that children were not worth it and out of the question. Earth to me is a Hell World, and if given a choice, it is not worth it to be born.

Anyway, after the gf left, I was much happier and never felt lonely for a minute living in total isolation.

I like to believe that Romantic Love is possible, and I'm totally open to the idea, but I don't have much in common with anybody. The best I have been able to do is "serial monogamy." But maybe things are changing for me...

 

[malakaix]

Anyway, after the gf left, I was much happier and never felt lonely for a minute living in total isolation.

I like to believe that Romantic Love is possible, and I'm totally open to the idea, but I don't have much in common with anybody. The best I have been able to do is "serial monogamy." But maybe things are changing for me...

I am finding myself in a similar situation, it's difficult for me to discern if it is in fact simply circumstantial or if it runs deeper. I am totally open to the idea of an authentic connection with someone on a romantic level and like to believe that i have experienced it a couple of times, but time and time again i slowly find myself craving freedom from the relationship..

I love meeting new people, travelling, socializing and connecting but i always maintain my sense of independence.. i want to be able to freely interact with others but know that i have no obligation to uphold any expectations they may have of me, and nor me of them. And while I've been able to successfully manage this with friends and family, it doesn't lend itself well to romantic relationships because there's usually an underlying dependency on one another in some way and an expectation to compromise, perhaps this is where i fall short and i'm missing out on an enormous potential for personal growth..

I value relationships with others deeply, i once lived with travelers from all over the world coming and going regularly.. but i can be stubborn and quite extreme when those relationships impose on my personal freedom and i will if necessary cut people out of my life because of it. - Maybe this is an area of myself i need to develop.

Serial monogamist is a good term to describe me.

 

[-=SS=-]

Interesting responses, thanks people

I've had this experience, where the totality of existence dropped away leaving a single infinitely lonely point of pure consciousness. Since then I have come to believe what you're saying, that the reason for existence is for the universe to diversify itself, as you say, and forget that it's a singular totality.

I have always found relationships to be one of, if not the most, important things in life. Forming close connections with other people is such a beautiful thing.

Likewise. I do daydream though about an era of humanity where the majority of people have seen/felt 'the mystery' and it shines through in their eyes.. both parties knowing what they really are and at the same time able to celebrate in this dance together, free from the fear of death and seriousness that pervades the typical human existence at present. A civilization like that would be indescribably beautiful. I like to hope that is where we will evolve to one day.

I like to believe that Romantic Love is possible, and I'm totally open to the idea, but I don't have much in common with anybody. The best I have been able to do is "serial monogamy." But maybe things are changing for me...

And while I've been able to successfully manage this with friends and family, it doesn't lend itself well to romantic relationships because there's usually an underlying dependency on one another in some way and an expectation to compromise, perhaps this is where i fall short and i'm missing out on an enormous potential for personal growth..

These quotes come back to a point I tried to elude to in my original post, that we have become very atomized and individualistic. I think perhaps this has been necessary, a growth and evolution away from the rigid constructs of Victorian society and further back. And whilst it's great we can find individual freedom now, what about our relationship with society itself? This is one of those relationships, like community, I feel we're losing. If we can't compromise, come together and grow the next generation of children, then what is going to happen to our civilization?

My idea of fun was hiking up a nearby mountain and watching the baby eagles in their nest in a tree top or sitting and reading a book or writing. She was always wanting to spend money on stupid things.

One of you has got the right idea at least ^_^

 

[Xorkoth]

I didn't think you meant romantic relationships necessarily for this thread, right? I took it to mean relationships of any kind with people... family, friends, romantic, whatever. I think romantic relationships are overblown in importance and it is important to be happy with being on your own. That said, romantic relationships can be among the most beautiful of relationships, and also certainly they can be the most destructive (I definitely lived through one of those, a very long one). But my post was about relationships of all kinds, in general, but specifically about family and friends.

 

[swilow]

Earth to me is a Hell World, and if given a choice, it is not worth it to be born.

I know, and the most insane part is that we are essentially programmed to fight desperately for our survival here and do everything to avoid this existence ending. I always imagined god saying: "Here is this awful painful thing that you will hate and you will know you hate it, but I will make you need it". The reality off life on earth (as I see it) makes the idea of a watchful and interactive deity seem soul-destroying. What monster could sit by and watch this and do nothing? Thankfully I cannot believe this.

But, through all that, I think the idea of earth being like hell is incorrect. It fucking seems that way, but that's human subjectivity colouring something essentially formless. Its kind of horrifying to think that what we find important and what we find morally repugnant mean nothing to the universe. A million babies could starve and then catch fire and the universe would not slightly change. At the same time, this means that we can probably discard things like guilt and regret as being unreal and meaningless and live our lives, in the now, in a more fulfilling way. I don't think that right and wrong, good and bad existed 250,000 years ago; or, at least, nothing existed to describe those qualities. Truly, the advent of humans brought sin into this world. Morality and all of that, happiness and love, its all human fiction that hopefully I can forget and just live. Existence being like a formless void upon which we make brief impressions speaks true to me, adds poignancy and urgency to our time here and makes me truly wish to live a good life; there is absolutely no reason no to. At the same time, if I do wrong, I know that it isn't of consequence, it is not remembered by the universe and can be a positive thing if I learn from it and move on. Instead of being like hell, earth is just indifferent and, in the end, completely without mercy or sentimentality. That is the closest thing to an external god I can imagine...

 

[malakaix]

Its kind of horrifying to think that what we find important and what we find morally repugnant mean nothing to the universe. A million babies could starve and then catch fire and the universe would not slightly change. At the same time, this means that we can probably discard things like guilt and regret as being unreal and meaningless and live our lives, in the now, in a more fulfilling way. I don't think that right and wrong, good and bad existed 250,000 years ago; or, at least, nothing existed to describe those qualities. Truly, the advent of humans brought sin into this world. Morality and all of that, happiness and love, its all human fiction that hopefully I can forget and just live. Existence being like a formless void upon which we make brief impressions speaks true to me, adds poignancy and urgency to our time here and makes me truly wish to live a good life; there is absolutely no reason no to. At the same time, if I do wrong, I know that it isn't of consequence, it is not remembered by the universe and can be a positive thing if I learn from it and move on. Instead of being like hell, earth is just indifferent and, in the end, completely without mercy or sentimentality. That is the closest thing to an external god I can imagine...

I agree, well said.

 

[-=SS=-]

When I was younger and very bitter I described this world as a hell realm too. That's not to say I don't get the odd bitter day anymore. But after much thought I've redefined the statement to what I believe is more accurate.. 'This is a madhouse'. The birds still tweet, the trees still stand proud.. and neither give a much of a fuck. The problem is us with our game playing.

 

[Smoky]

Thank you for sharing. Sometimes I feel separated cut off in the maze and isolated, but other times I feel in the zone or flow of life … one with life and others, unblocked and connected to what IS. For me it's the source of life with inflow and outflow of the human heart.

I would say in the end it is the experiences in life that are important, with ourselves and those we love. The universe can provide a challenge to move and create relationships, but at least ime it's up to me to develop them, and step out of my comfort zone in order to grow.

There are hidden forces within us I believe. They just need to be tapped into through living, experientially… Active involvement in the moment … giving the best of ourselves whatever that is for each of us, verses avoiding what arises via fear and too much stagnation and contemplation.

And knowing it's okay to be happy! At least for me this has been an issue. We are born with infinite worth… society diminishes this with delusions of success and failure… artificial constructs beliefs that separate us. Cultivating self love is also giving love and appreciating that we are enough.

 

[Xorkoth]

When I was younger and very bitter I described this world as a hell realm too. That's not to say I don't get the odd bitter day anymore. But after much thought I've redefined the statement to what I believe is more accurate.. 'This is a madhouse'. The birds still tweet, the trees still stand proud.. and neither give a much of a fuck. The problem is us with our game playing.

Well said... the world is certainly a madhouse, and life as a human is INTENSE, but there is great beauty and joy to be had as well. It's an existence of extremes, especially emotional ones, but being able to experience pain and sadness also means that we are able to experience love and joy, things that are about as opposite from my idea of "hell" as possible.

 

[Ninae]

I know, and the most insane part is that we are essentially programmed to fight desperately for our survival here and do everything to avoid this existence ending. I always imagined god saying: "Here is this awful painful thing that you will hate and you will know you hate it, but I will make you need it". The reality off life on earth (as I see it) makes the idea of a watchful and interactive deity seem soul-destroying. What monster could sit by and watch this and do nothing? Thankfully I cannot believe this.

Has it ever occurred to you this game might have been created for us and something you've been taking part in at your own request?

Mainly because of what you can gain from it for your own soul-development, for what you can contribute, and for experience's sake. I think the problem is as soon as we come here we start believing it should all be for the sake of experience and seen that way it soon starts to look senseless and disappointing.

But if that is really how you think of the idea of God we don't even have a conflict although it's not an outlook that leads anywhere. I can agree there is obviously no God here that watches over you in that sense, but that is not my idea of God or what I've ever been able to believe, simply because it's so clearly not true. That is also one of the things I want to write about, or the different perceptions we can have of a God, as it seems like something many could still find helpful.

 

[snazzy_sn]

Beyond organic and natural relationships....
Which have deeply personal and unique meanings or (lack of meaning) for each of us....

We need money, we need our beliefs and we...
I mean like relationships are of paramount awesomeness and importance and shit.
Otherwise you're just you... figuring this shit out alone.
Is that good or bad, though? Do you build yourself as these progress? I believe so. Or do you find your stance, then pick and choose....? Then...

I dunno. Drink more.

 

[snazzy_sn]

Still believe in an end all?
Should that be established before or after we open ourselves to others and their.... new stuff.
Eh? No... Oh well.

 

[herbavore]

The title of your thread is the only real conclusion I have ever come to in life. The rest of what I like to wonder about , muse upon or even argue and debate is nothing more than me mushing around the mysteries in my own head or with others. I rarely have the goal of reaching a conclusion.

Loneliness is so incredibly powerful. That deep drive to be seen and heard and acknowledged can make us individually and collectively completely lose our bearings (and end up with the horrendous world of image over authenticity, possessions trumping knowledge and compassion, etc, etc). But In my experience loneliness, when fully embraced, can be the most liberating learning experience of this whole little set of years we call a life. I feel like most little kids don't feel lonely unless they are abused or truly neglected. I never remember feeling lonely as a young child. It was comfortable, even desirable, to be alone and I was as happy playing by myself as I was playing with my siblings or a friend. But adolescence changed all that and suddenly loneliness became so threatening that without even realizing the change, I would do anything to avoid feeling it. I would hang out with people that made me uncomfortable, stay with a boy that I didn't really care for and do anything I could to create the image that I was never alone--all the while feeling more and more lonely. Looking back now I see that it wasn't so much that I wanted to feel loved as it was that I wanted the world to see that I was loved. That is probably when I started to lose that deep and unconscious relationship to myself, when image started to replace substance. I think my whole trajectory is pretty common for young people in modern cultures and I feel lucky to have had interventions that derailed it. I know plenty of people my age that seem to be still stuck in that rut.

SS--Your descriptions of what has been lost over the last few decades in our communities is very true. Yet I feel very hopeful as I see things starting to swing back as more and more people feel the devastation in their lives of all this isolation. I've always been a people person--I don't have to work hard to like my fellow human beings individually, though I do struggle with our species as a whole. So in my neighborhood I go out of my way to get neighbors together--with outdoor fires, plant exchanges, tool sharing, baby-sitting co-ops, dinner exchanges, etc. With other parents I always tried to dispel the myth that the world is less safe for their children and to encourage all the kids to run around together and have that heady, magical world outdoors away from grown-ups. I think that people are hungry for something different but most don't know how to initiate it. I once read about a single mom that moved to Berkeley and didn't know a soul. She started Wednesday Soup Nights at her house by just putting a note in all her unknown neighbors mailboxes telling them that every Wednesday she would make a giant pot of simple soup. All they needed to bring was a bowl and a spoon--no need to ever rsvp--just show up or not. 15 years later the soup nights were still going with all new people. Sometimes only one or two people show up and sometimes 30. I think that we can all create these nurturing pockets to fight the isolation and have a lot of fun doing it. The best part of doing it with neighbors is that you cross generations and get a diversity that doesn't happen in other more homogenous environments. Back in my parents day the grown ups all got together for cards and the kids ran wild in the yards.

I have a friend here that has Stone Soup Sunday that is a combination potluck soup (everybody brings an ingredient) and discussion of a topic. His topics are always thought provoking and the loosely knit group that show up are people that genuinely like to explore. The last one that I went to concerned the topic: "What is your relationship to the unseen world?" P&S is a great version of this with threads like this one that bring people together to share views and experiences and beliefs. Forums and online interactions are relatively new to me and I have to say that I find them as rewarding as my interactions with people off-line. People are often much more willing to be honest and vulnerable online and this can create a wonderful intimacy that has to be very carefully nurtured in a group of people face to face.

As I'm writing this I'm actually feeling the need to say how grateful I am for this forum and this particular part of the forum for this very reason. I don't get to participate here as much as I would like simply based on the amount of time I already spend in the Recovery Forums, but P&S always feels to me like getting seated at a very interesting table of people that I genuinely look forward to talking to but even more, listening to.

So carry on, good peeps. We can change this world most by not getting discouraged and by engaging with each other however and whenever we can.

 

[swilow]

^That was just a seriously awesome post.

 

[malakaix]

^That was just a seriously awesome post.

Seconded.

Looking back now I see that it wasn't so much that I wanted to feel loved as it was that I wanted the world to see that I was loved. That is probably when I started to lose that deep and unconscious relationship to myself, when image started to replace substance.

This really stood out for me, because i can strongly relate and have been going down this path for some time now.. it's become the source of much suffering and conflict in my life, but i hope in time and with enough awareness it will shift.

I recently re-watched 'Schindler's List' and it reminded me of this thread, i always tear up towards the end of that movie.. it reminds me that beyond everything, the relationships with each other is what matters most.