LSD and ego death

[Kl519]

This ^ is entirely false and uninformed nonsense, noone has ever "discredited" any of Freud's ideas, and they continue to form the fundamental basis and cornerstone of the study of the human mind (psychology, psychotherapy, psychiatry etc). Everyone who studies the human mind will be grounded in Freud's ideas, all psychological theories that have been formulated since Freud's day are centrally based on Freud's original concepts.

However the Freudian concept of "ego" has no connection at all with "ego" as in "psychedelic ego death". They are two entirely separate concepts, although they are spelled the same.

I didn't think they were such separate concepts. Kind of, sort of, but I'll take your word for it. This thread is starting to turn into round 2 all of a sudden. =O

Because hey, I remember you lol. How've you been? And yes, he's kind of the godfather, if you will, of the theories of how the human mind functions with the self. There are others too, but the top of my mind is blank atm.

I agree... part of the transcendental, +4 experience for me is the total moving past the self-reference frame into the all. In my first experience (my first trip), I was still aware of my current subjective self but I was equally aware of everything else, and none was of greater importance than the rest. I was conscious that I was still seeing and perceiving through the eyes of Xorkoth, but mentally/spiritually I was much more than that. That's why it was life-changing to such a great degree, I actually experienced being the whole. I would call it extreme ego dissolution but not total ego loss, but it was equally informative. The second time it happened, on 2C-E, I actually did completely lose my ego for a time, I had absolutely no recollection of Xorkoth anymore, only a single point of universal consciousness alone in a yawning void, aware I had just lost the subjective universe but the vastness of it entirely blew Xorkoth out of my awareness. And to get there I died kicking and screaming and was blown away in the cosmic breeze. That was a true ego death.

Yessss, finally some more input into that ++++ state. I kind of felt alone there.

Man, it really is different for everyone though. Great input as usual, Xorkoth.

 

[Ismene]

Because he's never experienced it despite a lot of intense tripping. We've had this discussion many times over the years in PD. I've come to expect his jabs in every thread where this discussion is taking place.

Exsqueeze me X

There's a bit more to it than that.

Firstly, the fundamental characteristic of LSD, the whole reason why Hoffman thought it might have some worth was that you RETAINED CONSCIOUS PRESENCE throughout the experience. You're absolutely aware that you've taken a drug and that you are tripping. That's the whole point of why it was thought valuable in medical research. A drug that makes you blackout or forget who you are is of absolutely use to anyone. LSD doesn't make you forget who you are, if it did it would have been left in the research lab in 1943.

Secondly, every ego-death report is different. Some people remember it, some people don't. I think people are confusing strong LSD effects with an "ego-death". Instead of just thinking "I'm having a strong trip on LSD" they reach for the term "ego-death".

Thirdly, if you've had an "ego-death" and lost track of who you are how the fuck can you remember what happened and spend 5 pages writing a trip report about it?

Those are just the first three things that come to mind.

 

[Ismene]

noone has ever "discredited" any of Freud's ideas, and they continue to form the fundamental basis and cornerstone of the study of the human mind

Not you again max.

Freud has been discredited for 50 years. The advent of MRI scans and the ability to examine the brain directly means all the bollocks Freud dreamed up 100 years ago is considered exactly that - complete bollocks.

 

[Ismene]

And to Ismene-I've come to the conclusion that maybe you are not making yourself susceptible to an ego loss state. Or it could be your subconscious possibly blocking it, therefore out of your control? Well, who knows. Though you seem to have that stone cold, grounded-in-reality type of approach to just about everything, so a state such as this one will probably have no benefit to you. As it is definitely in the land of the unknown, and the abstract.

I've experienced everything they say an ego-death involves - feeling at one with nature etc. I just never lose track of who I am or that I've taken LSD and that I'm tripping. In fact I'm usually more attuned and more deeply aware of my inner self when tripping - it's the complete and total opposite of some blackout state.

 

[max_freakout]

I didn't think they were such separate concepts. Kind of, sort of, but I'll take your word for it.

They are 2 completely separate concepts, no relation between them.

The Freudian sense of "ego" is part of Freud's convoluted model of the mind consisting of three parts, ego, id and superego.

The sense of ego as in "ego death" is much more simple than that, it just refers to the "sense of self", ie the normal feeling of being a person, ego death is the temporary cessation of that ordinary sense of being a person during a psychedelic trip. In ego death the ego is seen as being an artificial mentally projected construct, as opposed to a literal real thing.

Unfortunately Freud just complicates things by using the word "ego" in his theory, because many people mistakenly assume that this is the same ego that dies in ego death.

 

[Ismene]

They are 2 completely separate concepts, no relation between them.

The connection is that the guy who came up with the whole idea of an ego-death - Tim Leary - was aware of Freud's ego idea though being a psychologist.

 

[Xorkoth]

But the term ego was and still is also used to mean the sense of self, it doesn't necessarily mean someone is using the Freudian term, and in fact, in this sort of idea I don't think that's generally ever what people mean.

 

[Disco Doctor]

There's nothing quite like frantically patting down your own arms and legs after emerging from the hole... that rush of euphoria and relief you feel when you realise you are a human again and you are alive!

 

[Kl519]

I've experienced everything they say an ego-death involves - feeling at one with nature etc. I just never lose track of who I am or that I've taken LSD and that I'm tripping. In fact I'm usually more attuned and more deeply aware of my inner self when tripping - it's the complete and total opposite of some blackout state.

Well, it seems like you've reached at least parts of that state in those trips. Maybe that's just how it affects you?

They are 2 completely separate concepts, no relation between them.

The Freudian sense of "ego" is part of Freud's convoluted model of the mind consisting of three parts, ego, id and superego.

The sense of ego as in "ego death" is much more simple than that, it just refers to the "sense of self", ie the normal feeling of being a person, ego death is the temporary cessation of that ordinary sense of being a person during a psychedelic trip. In ego death the ego is seen as being an artificial mentally projected construct, as opposed to a literal real thing.

Unfortunately Freud just complicates things by using the word "ego" in his theory, because many people mistakenly assume that this is the same ego that dies in ego death.

Ah ha, I see. I knew I'd take your word for it.

But the term ego was and still is also used to mean the sense of self, it doesn't necessarily mean someone is using the Freudian term, and in fact, in this sort of idea I don't think that's generally ever what people mean.

And this is pretty much what I meant too, how the two are not too separate from each other in this way. The term ego doesn't have two separate meanings when both of the contexts at least loosely refer to each other as meaning the "sense of self."

 

[max_freakout]

The connection is that the guy who came up with the whole idea of an ego-death - Tim Leary - was aware of Freud's ego idea though being a psychologist.

Leary would have been aware of the Freudian concept of ego-id-superego, but he would also have been aware of the other uses of the word "ego" such as the Cartesian ego which is the sense of "ego" that is relevant to ego death (ie the "sense of self").

Also Freud was not aware of the phenomenon of psychedelic ego death, and the term "ego death" has nothing to do with the Freudian ego.

Leary was only the first person to use the term "ego death" to describe that particular experience, but people have been tripping out and experiencing ego death (ie mystical death and rebirth) since long before Leary ever existed (eg Mckenna's stoned ape theory)

 

[max_freakout]

But the term ego was and still is also used to mean the sense of self, it doesn't necessarily mean someone is using the Freudian term, and in fact, in this sort of idea I don't think that's generally ever what people mean.

Freud's theory of ego only serves to confuse things in any conversation about psychedelic ego death unfortunately

 

[Ismene]

Well, it seems like you've reached at least parts of that state in those trips. Maybe that's just how it affects you?

Could be. There's an old talmudic saying that you don't experience the world as it is but how you are. But objectively, if anyone said to me "if I take LSD will I suffer a complete blackout and lose all ability to know I've taken a drug or even remember who I am" I would say absolutely not - LSD doesn't work like. The whole point of LSD is that you are aware of what's happening to you.

 

[max_freakout]

Ego death has nothing to do with experiencing "blackout" or "amnesia", forgetting you've taken a drug, or anything like that. You remain fully aware, conscious and lucid during ego death experience and you fully remember that you have taken a drug.

Ego death is an experience of hyperconsciousness and full memory, not loss of consciousness and memory-loss.

 

[Ismene]

That's your interpretation tho max - I've had people assure me that during an ego-death if a burglar walked in and began removing money and items from the room they would have absolutely no idea what was going on or try and stop the burglar.

 

[max_freakout]

I've had people assure me that during an ego-death if a burglar walked in and began removing money and items from the room they would have absolutely no idea what was going on or try and stop the burglar.

This ^ is largely irrelevant to ego death.

Identifying ego death experiences has nothing to do with how a person would react to a burglar, it is an experience of mentally dying that happens inside the mind of a person who is tripping sufficiently hard

 

[Ismene]

So if you know who you are and that you're tripping in what sense has your ego died?

 

[max_freakout]

So if you know who you are and that you're tripping in what sense has your ego died?

If you had lost all memory how would you know you had died? These kind of vague empty questions don't shed much light on the ego death phenomenon.

During ego death you know who you are (or who you *were*) and that you took drugs (while you were still alive), but you now feel that you have died and permanently left the ordinary world. That is all there is to it, ego death is the feeling of having died during a psychedelic trip. Ego death means thinking to oneself that "I have died".

This experience of mentally dying is fairly commonplace on psychedelic drugs like LSD and mushrooms, if you explore the psychedelic state of consciousness you are bound to come across ego death sooner or later.

 

[Ismene]

Feeling like you're dying doesn't mean you must be having an ego death - you can feel like you're dying on a bad trip.

 

[max_freakout]

Feeling like you're dying doesn't mean you must be having an ego death

On the contrary feeling like you are dying whilst tripping is precisely what ego death is, that is why it is called "ego death"

you can feel like you're dying on a bad trip.

This ^ is exactly what ego death is, ie feeling like you are dying during a trip.

The ego death trip is typically bad because ego does not want to relinquish its attachment to existence, so it struggles to maintain its existence and the resulting life-or-death struggle is a very unpleasant experience (ie a bad trip). This is exactly the same kind of instinctive, non-rational urge towards self-preservation that you would feel if a hungry lion suddenly entered the room ie mad, desperate panicked urge to protect your life.

Ego is programmed to hang on to its grip on existence at all costs, the most centrally important thing to ego is the belief in personal reality (the belief that "i exist" or "i am real"). For this reason, when egoic existence is felt to be slipping away or dissolving during a strong psychedelic trip, the ego reacts by entering into a fight-or-flight struggle to hold on to life which is precisely what characterises the 'bad trip' experience, a desperate struggle to remain alive with one's egoic integrity remaining intact.

 

[max_freakout]

if a burglar walked in and began removing money and items from the room they would have absolutely no idea what was going on

This ^ is the kind of delirious non-lucid experience that you might expect to have on a dissociative drug like PCP or ketamine, but you would never get this on a psychedelic like mushrooms or LSD