would you use a beta or alpha blocker to calm down from the cycle?

[CFC]

whoa whoa, do you mean this would prevent/reverse the heart concern (left ventricle hypertrophy, i think?)? Why isn't it more popular? I've always considered that heart hypertrophy the scariest of all aas sides!

Any medication that controls blood pressure (an inotrope) and to a lesser extent pulse rate (a chronotrope) while on AAS will reduce or prevent left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) - this includes diuretics, beta blockers, alpha blockers, calcium channel blockers, ACE inhibitors as well as ARBs. But LVH in itself is not necessarily an issue. It often reflects the fact that bodybuilders have developed the significantly superior heart function and strength required to shift large weights and feed powerful muscles - what would be called an 'athletic' adaptation.

The problem is when this coincides with fibrosis in cardiovascular tissues. In this instance fibrosis is the deposition of less flexible collagen not just in the heart but in arteries and veins across the body. This seems to occur directly and indirectly as a result of AAS use, and some AAS are worse than others - eg Deca is notoriously bad. This extra collagen makes the cardiovascular tissues a bit 'stiffer' and increases the pressure (force) required by the heart to pump blood through the body (increases the 'load').

As a result, a rather less healthy (and structurally maladaptive) deposition of new muscle (LVH) will occur in an attempt to overcome the strain of the increasing load, and once past a certain size, it begins to reduce the efficiency of the heart as a pump. But the fibrosis also affects things like the passage of nerve impulses across the heart (often resulting in atrial fibrillation or heart block, for example), and interferes with the essential growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis) to the new cardiac muscle, potentially starving these tissues of oxygen, resulting in pain (angina), necrosis and scarring. And the scarring makes the heart even more inflexible, and is thus basically a very unwelcome positive feedback loop.

All these outcomes are incredibly unhealthy for the heart, and probably explain why some powerlifters/bodybuilders (anecdotally, and I suppose relative to their otherwise incredibly healthy looking bodies) seem to suffer disproportionately from heart attacks, afib etc etc. ARBs are unusual in their ability to reverse tissue fibrosis, and as a bonus can also reduce blood pressure, which is a major trigger for unhealthy LVH. N-acetylcysteine has potentially been shown to have benefits in reducing fibrosis, but these unfortunately cancel out those of the ARB!

** As for why it's not more popular... beats me! I've been banging on about this for at least 10+ years. Usually I'm met with silence and confusion (out of ignorance I suppose) and also wails of 'polypharmacy' - by men otherwise pumping themselves full of dozens of 'unnecessary' compounds. To each their own.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Any medication that controls blood pressure (an inotrope) and to a lesser extent pulse rate (a chronotrope) while on AAS will reduce or prevent left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) - this includes diuretics, beta blockers, alpha blockers, calcium channel blockers, ACE inhibitors as well as ARBs. But LVH in itself is not necessarily an issue. It often reflects the fact that bodybuilders have developed the significantly superior heart function and strength required to shift large weights and feed powerful muscles - what would be called an 'athletic' adaptation.

The problem is when this coincides with fibrosis in cardiovascular tissues. In this instance fibrosis is the deposition of less flexible collagen not just in the heart but in arteries and veins across the body. This seems to occur directly and indirectly as a result of AAS use, and some AAS are worse than others - eg Deca is notoriously bad. This extra collagen makes the cardiovascular tissues a bit 'stiffer' and increases the pressure (force) required by the heart to pump blood through the body (increases the 'load').

As a result, a rather less healthy (and structurally maladaptive) deposition of new muscle (LVH) will occur in an attempt to overcome the strain of the increasing load, and once past a certain size, it begins to reduce the efficiency of the heart as a pump. But the fibrosis also affects things like the passage of nerve impulses across the heart (often resulting in atrial fibrillation or heart block, for example), and interferes with the essential growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis) to the new cardiac muscle, potentially starving these tissues of oxygen, resulting in pain (angina), necrosis and scarring. And the scarring makes the heart even more inflexible, and is thus basically a very unwelcome positive feedback loop.

All these outcomes are incredibly unhealthy for the heart, and probably explain why some powerlifters/bodybuilders (anecdotally, and I suppose relative to their otherwise incredibly healthy looking bodies) seem to suffer disproportionately from heart attacks, afib etc etc. ARBs are unusual in their ability to reverse tissue fibrosis, and as a bonus can also reduce blood pressure, which is a major trigger for unhealthy LVH. N-acetylcysteine has potentially been shown to have benefits in reducing fibrosis, but these unfortunately cancel out those of the ARB!

** As for why it's not more popular... beats me! I've been banging on about this for at least 10+ years. Usually I'm met with silence and confusion (out of ignorance I suppose) and also wails of 'polypharmacy' - by men otherwise pumping themselves full of dozens of 'unnecessary' compounds. To each their own.

Incredibly informative yet again CFC on a subject most forums like to dismiss, or blame other exogenous agents..

Thanks for sharing...

 

[CFC]

Incredibly informative yet again CFC on a subject most forums like to dismiss, or blame other exogenous agents..

Thanks for sharing...

Thanks GF. I hope advice like this becomes more widely disseminated in the bodybuilding world and helps a few guys make the right choice. Had I started using an ARB (or even any BP medication) as part of my normal protocol from the beginning of my AAS use 15 years ago, I believe my heart would have been in better shape today. Fortunately it's never too late to start since fibrosis can be reversed, as can LVH, but stil....

 

[Genetic Freak]

Thanks GF. I hope advice like this becomes more widely disseminated in the bodybuilding world and helps a few guys make the right choice. Had I started using an ARB (or even any BP medication) as part of my normal protocol from the beginning of my AAS use 15 years ago, I believe my heart would have been in better shape today. Fortunately it's never too late to start since fibrosis can be reversed, as can LVH, but stil....

Thats interesting to know, I had hoped it could be reversed, as you say never too late..!!

 

[neon black]

CFC- thank you so much, that post was incredibly informative and I'm still going over&over it. It's crazy how non-chalant(sp?) people seem to be about the heart when they use, in comparison to the concerns over hair/acne/etc. I'm psyched to have been pointed in the right direction to learn proactive measures, so really thanks a ton man [edit: what compounds would be your top recommendations?]

 

[CFC]

Thats interesting to know, I had hoped it could be reversed, as you say never too late..!!

To clarify, fibrosis can be reversed, though it's unlikely to be fully, and not in everyone. And the damage to other tissues such as heart valves (due to fibrotic stiffness and years of elevated BP and raised PCV) is unlikely to be reversed.

Prevention is logically going to be a safer course of action. Unfortunately, though some compounds are thought to be harsher, there is scant human research (for obvious reasons).

BP medication should still be in everyone's arsenal though: even beyond the fibrosis aspect, controlling elevated blood pressure and the effects of raised haematocrit (PCV) should be universally important for all AAS using bodybuilders.

This means giving blood on a regular basis would also be wise (or doing it yourself via vacuum tubes if you've the balls lol).

And as for pre-workout stimulants dramatically aggravating all of the effects we've just been discussing.... LOL.

 

[CFC]

CFC- thank you so much, that post was incredibly informative and I'm still going over&over it. It's crazy how non-chalant(sp?) people seem to be about the heart when they use, in comparison to the concerns over hair/acne/etc. I'm psyched to have been pointed in the right direction to learn proactive measures, so really thanks a ton man [edit: what compounds would be your top recommendations?]

Thanks, I hope it helps.

Losartan is the most heavily researched of the ARBs with regards to reversing fibrosis. Angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) are generally suffixed with ~sartan.

However one of the most efficacious of the ~sartans, at least in research, is Olmesartan, closely followed by Irbesartan. But really, most of this will simply come down to what you can get your hands on and at what price.

In the absence of any of the ARBs, you could try any of the other blood pressure medications (ACE inhibitors are probably the next choice, though personally I'd avoid diuretics), with a fairly high dose of N-acetylcysteine (iirc it was about 2g daily). The NAC approach is not as effective but it does offer something I suppose.

FWIW both ACE-inhibitors and ARBs are slightly less effective for people of West African origin (blacks) with regards to blood pressure reduction (due to differences in the renin system); the anti-fibrotic effect should remain however.

 

[whatnotgot]

I am on a beta blocker propananol, 40mg in the morning, i got put on it for anxiety and it does nothing for it. Would propananol have any negative/positive effects if i were to run a 500mg test e 10/12 week cycle?

 

[CFC]

I am on a beta blocker propananol, 40mg in the morning, i got put on it for anxiety and it does nothing for it. Would propananol have any negative/positive effects if i were to run a 500mg test e 10/12 week cycle?

No, aside from the already negative side effects (beta-blockers reduce insulin sensitivity).

Also, unless the propranolol is a long-acting preparation, it's really not going to be effective for more than 4-5 hours anyway.

 

[neon black]

propananol, 40mg in the morning, i got put on it for anxiety and it does nothing for it.

damn that's too bad, sorry to hear. I always figured propanolol would be a fantastic chemical for anxiety, and had intended to give it a go for that myself.. are you responsive to other pharms for your anxiety?

 

[ongos]

If anxiety lasts for more than 4-5 hours, it is something else. I would assume the high dose "gear" is doing something to the person. Propranolol is meant to block adrenaline and lower blood pressure so it should work for anxiety. I just took a 10 mg to see what happens. From what I understand vitamins and minerals decreases its effect, in other words, if you're taking something else with it, be sure to check drugs.com to see what negatively interacts with it.

I'm not on gear right now, so this may work for my anxiety. If I were on gear I'm sure it would be useless since gear is meant to give anxiety. Gear would cancel out its anti anxiety effects but may work to lower blood pressure.

No, aside from the already negative side effects (beta-blockers reduce insulin sensitivity).

Also, unless the propranolol is a long-acting preparation, it's really not going to be effective for more than 4-5 hours anyway.

 

[CFC]

If anxiety lasts for more than 4-5 hours, it is something else. I would assume the high dose "gear" is doing something to the person. Propranolol is meant to block adrenaline and lower blood pressure so it should work for anxiety. I just took a 10 mg to see what happens. From what I understand vitamins and minerals decreases its effect, in other words, if you're taking something else with it, be sure to check drugs.com to see what negatively interacts with it.

I'm not on gear right now, so this may work for my anxiety. If I were on gear I'm sure it would be useless since gear is meant to give anxiety. Gear would cancel out its anti anxiety effects but may work to lower blood pressure.

Anxiety can be long and short term. Propranolol is commonly prescribed for anxiety disorders - which are chronic, long term conditions - because it can easily cross the blood brain barrier. Its short half life means it's usually taken thrice daily. Not to be confused with panic attacks - which do indeed rarely last more than a few hours, but for which benzos are a more typical choice.

Beta blockers will still work perfectly well on gear. The effect may simply be weaker due to stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system by AAS. However if the beta blocker isn't doing anything to calm you, it's unlikely to be having much inotropic or chronotropic effect either. You can compensate by either titrating the dose upwards or adding a centrally acting alpha blocker to the mix as well.

 

[DOB]

beta and alpha blockers are known to lower blood pressure. Has anyone used it when needed (i.e. when you're too jacked up on steroids).

most important thing is to donate blood,using drugs to lower blood pressure when your blood is thick from too much red blood cell isnt the best solution