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World War II history appreciation thread - you insensitive clod

Some variants on the Hitler Lives!!! conspiracy theories are pretty decent. It's not beyond the realms of conceivability and there would appear to be quite a lot of circumstantial evidence and some rather odd witness statements in support of it. But whether he shot himself in a bunker or lived to a ripe old age in Argentina or elsewhere doesn't ultimately make much difference as it's a bit late for a comeback now either way.
 
He's just biding his time - he'll be back soon, along with the "advanced supersonic nazi hell creatures from beneath the hollow earth"*

* all true, as this impeccable source proves
 
Shambles said:
But whether he shot himself in a bunker or lived to a ripe old age in Argentina or elsewhere doesn't ultimately make much difference as it's a bit late for a comeback now either way.
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Especially as a 125-year-old man.

I mean, Jagger's looking shaky in his seventies. I know Der Führer has that extra theatrical flair, but I can't see it being very dignified.
 
I don't think he would have been in a medically fit state to survive a submarine journey to South America anyway. He had dismissed his "doctor" Morell from the bunker a week before he died, so it's pretty clear that he intended to take his own life pretty soon after that. And even if he hadn't, I think he was so ill he would have popped his clogs pretty soon anyway.
 
felix said:
However, if the Russians didn't actually find his remains, why would it be in their interests to say they did? I think they did.
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I had always thought the story that Hitler simultaneously shot himself in the head while biting down on a cyanide capsule was pretty much a cast iron story, accepted by all but the most hardcore conspiracy theorists. After all the piece of skull with the bullet hole in it still exists in the Russian National Archives and that is definitive proof isn't it?...or is it?

I had intended posting something along the lines of....don't be silly folks of course it happened the way they say it did, we have the skull fragment to prove it...then I came across this:-

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/27/adolf-hitler-suicide-skull-fragment

Now it's just an article and doesn't "prove" anything....but it's interesting reading nonetheless.

Even if he hadn't have topped himself though his Parkinson's was pretty advanced by April 1945 and it's doubtful that he would have survived more than a year or two at the most.......

Having said all that though I'm still a first believer that he's alive and well living on the moon with Elvis and JFK eagerly awaiting his 126th birthday in April....stranger things have happened :)
 
By the numbers...

Members of the Gestapo (secret police): ~32,000
Members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards): 22,033
Members of the Einsatzgruppen (death squads): ~3,000
Card carrying members of the Nazi party: ~8,500,000

How is it fair to judge a group by the actions of less than ~0.07% of its members?
 
LosBlancos said:
By the numbers...

Members of the Gestapo (secret police): ~32,000
Members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards): 22,033
Members of the Einsatzgruppen (death squads): ~3,000
Card carrying members of the Nazi party: ~8,500,000

How is it fair to judge a group by the actions of less than ~0.07% of its members?
Click to expand...

Erm because it was the POLICIES of the party that lead to the carrying out of the crimes. Obviously every single party member wouldn't be expected to actually pull a trigger himself but it's the directives and decrees of the party that give the orders for the trigger men to perform the tasks.

The central and over-riding philosophy of the Nazi party was that some people were declared Untermenschen (sub-human) and did not have the right to life. The Einsatzgruppen, Gestapo, Totenkopfverbände were the instruments of that central policy.

It's called collective responsibility.

The Nazi party wasn't fucking Greenpeace or something where if a few members do wrong then it's unfair to blame the rest.

I don't think you quite understand how the Nazi party and the Third Reich operated as not only a government but an entire belief system
 
felix said:
Grey Wolf



This was actually a semi-plausible read.

However, if the Russians didn't actually find his remains, why would it be in their interests to say they did? I think they did.
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agree with that. Though, if the Russians thought they really had Hitler, though really they did not. They didn't or even couldn't prove it to themselves in the conditions they were in - the body didn't even receive a proper autopsy
I think he killed himself like they say still, probably because it was the only thing i was told that happened :O




LosBlancos said:
By the numbers...

Members of the Gestapo (secret police): ~32,000
Members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards): 22,033
Members of the Einsatzgruppen (death squads): ~3,000
Card carrying members of the Nazi party: ~8,500,000

How is it fair to judge a group by the actions of less than ~0.07% of its members?
Click to expand...

have no idea if those are correct, even if so, what's your point? The whole Nazi party was affiliated with war crimes. in your view they should release Charles Manson because he didn't kill anyone


Also many countries committed war crimes. As said already, UK purposely let ~7million Indians die(no food). on purpose. We don't hear about that often in history class do we?
 
zzz101 said:
agree with that. Though, if the Russians thought they really had Hitler, though really they did not. They didn't or even couldn't prove it to themselves in the conditions they were in - the body didn't even receive a proper autopsy
I think he killed himself like they say still, probably because it was the only thing i was told that happened :O
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I also lean to believe that he did kill himself. The accounts may not be accurate but I believe he killed himself. Afterall, it was just two days earlier that Mussolini was killed. If you were Hitler, and saw what happened to aul' Duce, suicide would seem like a lottery win compared to the possible alternative.

It could have been a fantastic performance if he had to stand trail in Nuremburg. Although, he may not have reached that stage if the Soviets had captured him.

zzz101 said:
Also many countries committed war crimes. As said already, UK purposely let ~7million Indians die(no food). on purpose. We don't hear about that often in history class do we?
Click to expand...

This is one of the most interesting things to me about WW2 (and all history, really); the picture that is shown to us, as the victors, when we are being educated. It just tends to be more interesting with more modern history as there are more contemporary sources and it's still quite fresh. I know of a number of instances where we did some terrible things during and after the war. The one thing that really sticks out is the betrayal of the Cossacks.
 
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englandz:

Thanks to your recommendation, I'm now about halfway through this:

51oU4uYDhXL.jpg


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Armageddon-The-Battle-Germany-1944-45/dp/0330490621

It's great. I'm appreciating the perspectives from soldiers on different sides of the story, for the same events, which is unusual.

He also doesn't pull any punches about all the fuckups made, from top to bottom. And I can understand why the Americans may not like his attitude about a lot of things too. So far I'm loving it. Cheers!
 
Its a good book isn't it...im not sure if its as good as Antony. Beevor's Berlin but its close. Hastings has a really good perspective on the thinking behind the way the soldiers acted and could be expected to act given the societies they were from. I might re-read it actually just to refresh my memory.

I'm glad you like it though mate ����
 
Well I thought I had but the one I got was Speer by Joachim Fest (different from the one you were on about)....i think I'm banned from the library for not paying my fines and returning a load of books with yogurt spilt on them....last time I went to get books out my card wouldn't work but fuck it....i just took the books out of the door anyway. The buzzer went off but it goes off accidentally so often no one noticed....i doubt that will work forever though ��
 
Guten Tag mein Kameraden!

Englandgz: It's taking me so long to plough through the massive "Armageddon" that I now have a library fine of 72p. :p

I found one bit amusing today. In the part where it describes all the looting of Germany by Allied soldiers towards the end of the war, it says that the SAS, with the considerable amount of leeway they had, were a bit more selective than the masses grabbing any old shit from people's houses, focused their attentions on cracking safes instead. Heh.


Also: I was very intrigued to read about Patton sending a column of 300 soldiers & tanks etc. way into occupied territory for the sole purpose of busting his son-in-law out of a POW camp. An operation that ended up with the son-in-law and about 240 American soldiers dead. I can't believe I've never heard of that before. Outrageous.
 
72p in library fines????....zis vud never have happened under ze Nazis!!!

Yeah I liked that bit about the SAS jedborough. teams making use of the fact Tha they were a) highly mobile...b) well armed...and c) no one knew where the fuck they were to do some more ..ahem.."selective" looting.

And that business with Patton attempting to bust his son in law out of POW camp was a disgrace. Not only in terms of the men and machines lost in the attempt but also the fact that that most of the released prisoners had to make their way BACK to the pow camp as they lost so many vehicles that they couldn't carry them back to American lines. Some of the shit Patton got up to was absolutely outrageous (like attempting to divert the entire fuel supplies from 21st Army group to his own 6th army). How he wasn't court marshalled and sent home is beyond me. I wonder how much the fact that by this stage in the war Monty had shown himself to be such a complete cunt contributes to Ike and George Marshall putting up with Patton's behaviour. Had Monty not acted himself so much he could possibly have been kept on as commander of land forces after the Normandy campaign which could have led to a whole different command structure and Patton being sidelined more.

What's your opinion of the broad front versus narrow front strategies for the campaign in the west? I think that regardless of its merits as a strategy, Montgomery's narrow front strategy was rejected purely by virtue of what a twat he was acting like thus forever sullying himself and his plans in the eyes of the Americans.
 
Yep, Monty did himself no favours after Normandy. I can understand his attitude slightly though, after running the invasion successfully and then having his command taken away and given to an American. He continued to take passive-aggressive sour grapes to a whole new level, even after the fuckup of Market Garden, which should have been beneath someone of his stature. I don't quite understand how someone of his obvious intelligence could be so politically retarded though.

On Patton (and Monty, and Bradley, and Bomber Harris too) I still find it quite odd just how much the media - even back in those days - had such an influence on things. All of them should really have been sacked for various reasons at various times, but they were National Heroes and it just wouldn't have gone down well, or so it was convenient for FDR & Churchill to act like. Madness.

I'm no military strategist, but we have the benefit of hindsight (and loads of books ;)) to inform us. I don't think it's much of a secret that Ike's broad front strategy was part of the deliberate intention to use the Soviets to take the brunt of the Eastern meatgrinder. I think the lack of boldness and pandering to the egos of all his subordinates probably prolonged the war, however. Hmmmm.
 
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