harmacologist
Ex-Bluelighter
weed is a real psychedelic if you do it right.
ive smoked enough hash to hallucinate
ive smoked enough hash to hallucinate
If weed isn't a "real" psychedelic how do you explain arabesque/hindu art?
- Thread starter JCRG
- Start date
It's strikingly similar because these images and patterns are part of how our brains are built and how they process visual information. LSD and weed may trigger effects that make those wirings very evident but mostly what they are doing is showing what is there in the first place.
I've seen geometric visuals from chronic meditation on retreats alone, when you don't change your visual input that is another strategy to make much more clear that we have pattern-seeking algorithms hard-wired into our heads. So even if the arabs only had meditation they could still get creative inspiration from experiences like that, where those algorithms are shown better for what they are.
So I agree that it is a fallacy to think that the drug magically has some character that imposes these effects, it just encourages more dynamic, interesting and emergent effects from the brain and consciousness that was there in the first place.
It is no wonder that psychedelic effects, whether from weed or serotonergics, are associated with deep meditation.
You got it backwards.
I've seen geometric visuals from chronic meditation on retreats alone, when you don't change your visual input that is another strategy to make much more clear that we have pattern-seeking algorithms hard-wired into our heads. So even if the arabs only had meditation they could still get creative inspiration from experiences like that, where those algorithms are shown better for what they are.
So I agree that it is a fallacy to think that the drug magically has some character that imposes these effects, it just encourages more dynamic, interesting and emergent effects from the brain and consciousness that was there in the first place.
It is no wonder that psychedelic effects, whether from weed or serotonergics, are associated with deep meditation.
You got it backwards.
They're brightly coloured, I don't personally see the funny shaped Gods tho. And are the people who had the money and power in India really going to be the ones who were baked all the time?
What do you mean? Why wouldn't they use sacred plants? Why wouldn't they enjoy the very best pleasures? I feel like the people with the money and power are the most likely to use drugs.
Perhaps they'd use them in private - although I'm not convinced deeply religious Hindus take lots of drugs.
Wouldn't building temples designed to look like what you saw when you were baked be considered an insult to God by most religious people?
Wouldn't building temples designed to look like what you saw when you were baked be considered an insult to God by most religious people?
DrGreenthumb
Bluelighter
You can see similar designs in Christian churches too, especially in stained glass windows. I don't think it has much to do with drugs. http://markspitzerdesigns.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/york-minster-cathedral/
Bhang is certainly a central part of Hindu culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Izb0eNoHk
Bhang is certainly a central part of Hindu culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Izb0eNoHk
No? Why would it be? Just because drugs are looked down on today doesn't mean they were in ancient times. Quite the contrary. Cannabis was an entheogen. Drugs and the states they caused were considered quite holy. They still are today by some.
perpetualdawn
Bluelighter
Can someone ID the temple/mosque shown in the first picture of OP? Looks like computer graphics to me, but I can't tell. Very pretty!
I agree with Solipsis' post that these artistic styles are a reflection of characteristics of our brain's optical circuitry. They remind us of trippy visuals because psychedelic drugs really amplify the artifacts of visual processing that our brains do, but you can also become aware of this same kind of patterning from meditation, sensory deprivation and such. I wouldn't rule out the idea that someone somewhere who was making religious art smoked some weed or ate some mushrooms and saw patterns, but it's not necessary either.
I agree with Solipsis' post that these artistic styles are a reflection of characteristics of our brain's optical circuitry. They remind us of trippy visuals because psychedelic drugs really amplify the artifacts of visual processing that our brains do, but you can also become aware of this same kind of patterning from meditation, sensory deprivation and such. I wouldn't rule out the idea that someone somewhere who was making religious art smoked some weed or ate some mushrooms and saw patterns, but it's not necessary either.
《Plasticity》
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It's the Nasir Al Mulk mosque. As unreal as it looks... I believe that's a real photo. All photos of this mosque I've seen look unreal, it's very beautiful.
zn13bt
Bluelighter
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I often see things that resemble multi-armed gods, seated Buddhas, and Chinese dragons while meditating on MXE, along with many other phenomena described by astral travellers. But it's certainly possible to have visionary out-of-body experiences without the use of any drugs, as has been reported by many people over the centuries, so I don't believe that what I'm seeing is directly caused by taking MXE.
Do you have any evidence to support this claim? That drugs wern't looked down on in India? The only stories of ancient drug use I know of in India is the assassins.
And what do you mean by "ancient times"? The taj mahal was built in 1631. Are you saying drugs were considered holy then? You really think the guy building the taj mahal got baked and thought everything I build must look like what I see when I'm baked?
I'm not gonna babysit you, dude. Do some basic research. Marijuana has been considered sacred in India for thousands of years. Google bhang, which has already been mentioned in this thread.
No, as I already stated I do not believe this theory. But if it were true, the patterns and designs could obviously outlive attitudes toward drugs. People incorporate elements of culture into their lives whether they believe in it or not. Surely you don't believe everyone who likes the Beatles does psychedelics or practices Hinduism?
Incunabula
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The surrealists were inspires by dreams. They strove to express their subconcious through symbolism. It should be seen in the context of the, at that time emerging, freudian and jungian view of the human psyche.
The muslim arab ornamentation used in mosques were based on mathematics, not drugs, and also contained symbolism praising the perfection of god, not drugs.
The most likely candidate for soma/haoma is either bhang, also known as cannabis, or ma huang, also known as ephedra, or maybe a mix of the two. There is some evidence of poppy seeds maybe having been added at times. Yes, I know, not as exciting as if it was amanita or psilocybin, of which there is no proof of having been used in India or Persia.
And oh, yeah, Indian gods having several arms and heads is symbolism. It doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with drugs at all. Each hand holds an item, or form a mudra, which symbolises an ability or a quality of the god.
Ismene, the assassins were an arab middle eastern phenomenon, not Indian. In my mind there is no doubt that the indians have been blazing away on weed and charas as they do now (!) for at least thousands of years.
And to be fair, it's you who have to prove that drug use was looked down upon in India. Indians even today have a very liberal view on drugs. And even today weed is legal for Indians to grow and smoke, it's just not legal for tourists. Indians worshipping Shiva even have a holiday were they are obliged to drink bhang lassi (drinking yoghurt spiked with cannabis)
"Bhang has been used in India since Vedic times, and is an integral part of North Indian culture. Sadhus and Sufis use Bhang to boost meditation and to achieve transcendental states. Bhang or cannabis is also used amongst Sufis as an aid to spiritual ecstasy."
http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang
The muslim arab ornamentation used in mosques were based on mathematics, not drugs, and also contained symbolism praising the perfection of god, not drugs.
The most likely candidate for soma/haoma is either bhang, also known as cannabis, or ma huang, also known as ephedra, or maybe a mix of the two. There is some evidence of poppy seeds maybe having been added at times. Yes, I know, not as exciting as if it was amanita or psilocybin, of which there is no proof of having been used in India or Persia.
And oh, yeah, Indian gods having several arms and heads is symbolism. It doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with drugs at all. Each hand holds an item, or form a mudra, which symbolises an ability or a quality of the god.
Ismene, the assassins were an arab middle eastern phenomenon, not Indian. In my mind there is no doubt that the indians have been blazing away on weed and charas as they do now (!) for at least thousands of years.
And to be fair, it's you who have to prove that drug use was looked down upon in India. Indians even today have a very liberal view on drugs. And even today weed is legal for Indians to grow and smoke, it's just not legal for tourists. Indians worshipping Shiva even have a holiday were they are obliged to drink bhang lassi (drinking yoghurt spiked with cannabis)
"Bhang has been used in India since Vedic times, and is an integral part of North Indian culture. Sadhus and Sufis use Bhang to boost meditation and to achieve transcendental states. Bhang or cannabis is also used amongst Sufis as an aid to spiritual ecstasy."
http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang
Vurtual
Bluelighter
Well the prominent place that soma (whatever it was) holds in some of the most ancient and sacred hindu texts is pretty strong evidence. Solipsis and the rest said it best: psychedelics just show up the same neural circuitry that can be revealed in various non-drug ways - just the fact that we see these patterns as pretty suggests that the creative part of our brain might be likely to spit them out when the gain is turned up (some core element of our aesthetic sense, symmetry, love of patterns/meaning). I think it's a moot point - whether we/they found these patterns through drugs, meditation or just usual artistic processes, it's still the same thing, hence the recognition. Looking into the past for psychedelics and being disappointed when we can't find them is silly - it's our consciousness that's the important factor and that was always there - the drugs are just trigger/catalyst (same as the mantras, rituals, etc)
Incunabula
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Well said, I totally agree. Obviously the human imagination is able of inventing and creating complex patterns without taking drugs, and it's not like appreciation of beatiful colours are limited to people who tried tripping on psychedelics.
Maybe. Maybe not. If you're a drug user that's obviously an appealing idea - "They were all getting stoned dude, just like me". It's like the use of ayahuasca in south america - when you really look into it they often arn't even using DMT at big enough dosage levels to even trip. Often it's simply to help them vomit and shit to get rid of worms. Similarly bhang is largely used as a medical cure or as part of a religious ceremony like catholics use wine.
And to be fair, it's you who have to prove that drug use was looked down upon in India
Seeing as drug use is looked down on in every monotheist religion on earth it's a very good bet. And drug use isn't really what we're talking about - it's more than just "drug use" - the claim is that people who were baked thought they would best praise God by building temples that reflected what they saw when they were baked. Now to me that sounds like something that any monotheist religion on earth would find blasphemous. I'll need an awful lot of proof before I can accept the theory that they all went "Yeah dude, we praise God by painting this stuff on the walls I saw when I was baked". That's just plain batshit crazy. It's obviously some 21st century teenager who'se looking back on history and seeing the things he wants to see regardless.
Sadhus and Sufis use Bhang to boost meditation and to achieve transcendental states. Bhang or cannabis is also used amongst Sufis as an aid to spiritual ecstasy
Unfortunately for this theory - Sufis don't build temples. I think there's only one in existence and that looks like shit. And Sadhus are ascetics - which mean they mostly lived in caves and holes in the ground.