aMT, Al-Lad, LSz, 5-meo-dalt, (also AH7921+) BANNED from Jan 7th

[Sprout]

That is assuming they ever do ban them. I don't even want to imagine the cost to the taxpayer if every single person in the UK with an RC benzo habit suddenly entered the healthcare system.

 

[BigG]

That is assuming they ever do ban them. I don't even want to imagine the cost to the taxpayer if every single person in the UK with an RC benzo habit suddenly entered the healthcare system.

You know what though, I don't think the healthcare "system" even has the slightest idea how big the RC benzo scene is. In fact 99.9% of the folk I work with don't even know there is such a thing. I bet if you did a survey among GPs you would find a similar trend.

Yes some doctors like toxicologists and maybe some psychiatrists may be aware of the RC benzo explosion but you would be surprised how ignorant front-line medical staff are of RCs in general,

One of my reasons for being on BL in the first place is to make sure I'm not one of one of the ignorant ones. I honestly think this level of ignorance could cost someone their life one day especially with benzos as they have the greatest propensity to kill (especially when mixed with alcohol & opiates).

 

[Sprout]

You know what though, I don't think the healthcare "system" even has the slightest idea how big the RC benzo scene is. In fact 99.9% of the folk I work with don't even know there is such a thing. I bet if you did a survey among GPs you would find a similar trend.

Yes some doctors like toxicologists and maybe some psychiatrists may be aware of the RC benzo explosion but you would be surprised how ignorant front-line medical staff are of RCs in general,

One of my reasons for being on BL in the first place is to make sure I'm not one of one of the ignorant ones. I honestly think this level of ignorance could cost someone their life one day especially with benzos as they have the greatest propensity to kill (especially when mixed with alcohol & opiates).

A registered nurse at a drug addiction center recently used the quote "if it's available from Morrisons I'm going to assume it's weak" when I told her about my Poppy Tea usage....

 

[BigG]

A registered nurse at a drug addiction center recently used the quote "if it's available from Morrisons I'm going to assume it's weak" when I told her about my Poppy Tea usage....

Fucking hell man...and that's coming from someone who supposedly specialises in drugs and drug usage...can you imagine what sort of clue you typical 65 year old/close to retirement/not really interested GP is likely to have?....non at all I'd say.

Most medical professionals don't have a clue that you can buy all sorts of things over the internet let alone know what the different RCs are. Most have only just cottoned on (about 10 years after the fact) that people buy viagra online.

It's unbelievable!......

 

[Sprout]

Yup. She had no fucking clue about... well, anything at all. I actually went to college with the woman and know she's a fucking idiot, first hand.
She didn't know about.... MPA, EPD, aMT, Diclazepam, Flubromazepam, the 2Cx series, DOx series, BOx, NBOMe, NBOH.... the list goes on.
I was asked to complete a "drug diary" and she ended up crossing out MXP and changing it to Ketamine, Ethylphenidate to Cocaine, aMT to Amphetamine....

 

[Shambles]

My local addiction workers often ask me about RCs and what they do. The lack of knowledge - and even any real interest - is really quite scary given how many people use them these days. Doubly so when the users themselves are often also clueless whether through lack of giving much of a shit or through buying branded crap. The one that always pisses me off most is when one of the drug counsellors simply refer to "Legal Highs" with no distiction between even absolute basics like is it a stimulant or a psychedelic or a dissociative or whatever. Some - most I would say - seem to get all their info from the tabloids then ignore half of even that

 

[BigG]

I think it's because they are taught about a very narrow selection of substances i.e. the traditional drugs that everyone in the medical profession knows about - heroin, cocaine, cannabis, amphetamine etc. and when something new comes along that they've never heard of they are terrified to just say "I don't know - let me have a look and see what I can find out and get back to you" (because heaven forbid a patient who's a "druggie" should have a broader knowledge than them) so they just come out with something stupid which shows themselves up and destroys their credibility.

The face of drug use is changing and unless drug treatment services change with it they will become increasingly irrelevent

 

[Shambles]

Sounds spot on to me, Englandz. However, I will say that people just coming in to the field seem to be far more open to just asking people what exactly it is they use and are happy to put in a bit of research themselves to get at least a basic grasp. I have a feeling RCs are here to stay in one form or another - the genie it out of the bottle - and this will surely force people who need to know about these substances for professional reasons to do that bit of legwork. Although, saying that, I once accidentally shot a massive dose of ketamine into an artery and the first two people I spoke to at the hospital didn't know what ketamine was and when I told them they didn't believe anybody would ever take such a thing recreationally and - essentially - suggested I was just drunk and wasting their time 8)

 

[hexagram]

off topic but when did K use become widespread? I was never taught about in in my first drug education lessons at secondary school, I first heard about it in 2006 or so.

 

[BigG]

Sounds spot on to me, Englandz. However, I will say that people just coming in to the field seem to be far more open to just asking people what exactly it is they use and are happy to put in a bit of research themselves to get at least a basic grasp. I have a feeling RCs are here to stay in one form or another - the genie it out of the bottle - and this will surely force people who need to know about these substances for professional reasons to do that bit of legwork. Although, saying that, I once accidentally shot a massive dose of ketamine into an artery and the first two people I spoke to at the hospital didn't know what ketamine was and when I told them they didn't believe anybody would ever take such a thing recreationaly and - essentially - suggested I was just drunk and wasting their time 8)

That's incredible. Especially since ketamine is used by all anesthetists in.....well in the world pretty much.

Just out of interest (and I hope you don't mind me asking) but was your arm OK after aforementioned ketamine shot into the artery? It's just I've picked up people before who have injected things into arteries before that and called an ambulance (they generally report an intense burning in their hand and fingers as the substance goes straight down the arm rather than the other way to the heart) and they were all very, very concerned they would lose their arms. I had no real choice but to say "no you'll be fine" but I often wondered if they were going to be fine. I asked a surgeon friend of mine and she said it very much depends on the volume of the shot, how sterile it is and .....well just luck since once the drug reaches the small capillaries in the hand that transfer the blood itself from arteries back to veins it can block them leading to cessation of blood supply and gangrene..but it doesn't automatically happen like that as there are several possible outcomes

Were you OK afterwards? Did they have to operate on your arm? It makes me shudder thinking about it. I really hope your arm (and yourself in general) were OK after that, it sounds awful.

take care mate.

Hope you don't mind me asking I'm just curious from a medical stand point.

 

[kingme]

@englandgz74 - arterial shots are dangerous because of that precise reason you mention. vein injections have the extra advantage of the injected substances going through an additional filter before spreading out into the body - the lungs - which have very fine capillaries that more or less take care of most troublesome impurities. not that thats too healthy either, since a big enough particle injected may and can block off blood to part of lung. but the effects are generally far less than those of arterial shots. the pain felt in art shots is due to ischemia (lack of perfusion/oxygen) to tissue...

anyway back to doctors.
now im not saying drug nurses shouldnt know more about novel drugs BUT they are just nurses, and i suppose it is a cultural/regional thing as well, but where i am at, nurses know fuck all about drugs or general pharmacology. most docs would be happy if they would just measure bp and manage the occasional shot / blood collection. it is the doctor that has the general medical resposability of decision making...

most doctors have a lot to deal with beside drug use, and it is hard work keeping up with new medicine and guidelines (that you do have to folow to cover your ass legally) to allow for much time into the details of novel drugs.

novel drugs are usually also gray market and most likely understudied and under researched. it would be just as good guess work knowing the effects of say 5IT or MPA or whatever. just because we assume on this forum to know what does this and that and at what doses, we should remember that the bluelight wiki of drugs is far from objective research. it is only the best available. but i wouldnt want a doctor taking medical decisions based on what internet forums assume a drug does.

and since this started from a benzo discussion, some amount of ignorance may be allowed, in my opinion, in regard to all these novel benzos. sure, they have a lot of different names, and they have more or less a varied dose/effects/timeline but the basic principle of their effect and main effects are the same, are they not? as such, the most any doc can do about it is supportive care...

and let us remember that most drug users are not usually as informed about their poison as users here. a lot of rc users out there have little knowledge of their own drugs, especially if they come in branded form, a lot do not have scales, and msot that end up in emergency care are not in any condition to be offering any trustworthy information in their state, sadly.

i think the blame here is again on lawmakers who fail to see a basic human need and interfere, causing a lack of education on all sides that in the end in the problem

 

[Si Dread]

The average GP spends about an hour on nutrition out of the 7 years they spend at med school. I'd be impressed if they spent half of that time on illegal drugs & I'd be stunned if they spend any time at all on RC's/Legal Highs. It would be interesting to know how much they learn about the known drugs of abuse such as cocaine, crack, heroin, MDMA, speed, LSD, mescaline etc

I have been thinking about setting up some sort of unofficial advisory service for my local A&E & my GP surgery. The idea would be to make a list of the most commonly used RC's/Legal Highs, list the chemical & street name of RC's/Legal Highs, the effects & dosage range & possibly a rough idea of how to deal with an emergency or an admission for any reason.

For instance, one might make a list of RC Cannabinoids & Legal Highs, their dosage range & effects & the risks associated with overdose (which with cannabinoids is worryingly common) or freak-outs. Same again with benzo's, stims & psyches etc. Perhaps the report could be put up on a board in A&E to aid doctors in their diagnosis & treatment. The report could be updated every 3 months or so...

At the moment, I am pretty sure doctors in A&E rely on little more than guess-work when RC/Legal High casualties attend... Anyone know better???

 

[BigG]

The average GP spends about an hour on nutrition out of the 7 years they spend at med school. I'd be impressed if they spent half of that time on illegal drugs & I'd be stunned if they spend any time at all on RC's/Legal Highs. It would be interesting to know how much they learn about the known drugs of abuse such as cocaine, crack, heroin, MDMA, speed, LSD, mescaline etc

I have been thinking about setting up some sort of unofficial advisory service for my local A&E & my GP surgery. The idea would be to make a list of the most commonly used RC's/Legal Highs, list the chemical & street name of RC's/Legal Highs, the effects & dosage range & possibly a rough idea of how to deal with an emergency or an admission for any reason.

For instance, one might make a list of RC Cannabinoids & Legal Highs, their dosage range & effects & the risks associated with overdose (which with cannabinoids is worryingly common) or freak-outs. Same again with benzo's, stims & psyches etc. Perhaps the report could be put up on a board in A&E to aid doctors in their diagnosis & treatment. The report could be updated every 3 months or so...

At the moment, I am pretty sure doctors in A&E rely on little more than guess-work when RC/Legal High casualties attend... Anyone know better???

Medicine in the UK is only 5 years...6 if you include a pre-med year for people without a Chemistry A-Level (but the first year only gets you onto the actual course proper...it isn't part of it)....

But anyway re. the the main point of the advisory thing. It's a great idea and even though you undoubtedly know more about them than they do they wouldn't go for it. Simply from a legal point of view. If they were to make any decisions based on the info you provided and someone died they would be in deep shit. It would have to come directly from NICE.

It's a shame but that' the way they would see it.

On the plus side, with RCs taking off in such a huge way the current level of head in the sand ignorance can't last much longer. Things have to catch up at some point (hopefully soon).

 

[Si Dread]

On the plus side, with RCs taking off in such a huge way the current level of head in the sand ignorance can't last much longer. Things have to catch up at some point (hopefully soon).

Well, I personally would have thought that point had come & gone, wouldn't you? The number of people suffering adverse reactions to legal drugs has sky-rocketed in recent years. I'd have thought someone other than a raving hippy (me) would have thought of this by now & got it into motion. But I guess you're right, the lumbering "system" tends to take while to catch up...

I appreciate completely the difficulty of getting something like this accepted by the NHS, so I might try to get some group like Transform behind the project, see if they can use some kind of official push...

 

[kingme]

as admirable an idea as that would be si ingwe, how would your idea be any better than guesswork? considering the sheer number of rcs out there, the branded forms, the ignorance of (a lot) of users and the complete lack of proper research on them in the first place?

 

[Si Dread]

as admirable an idea as that would be si ingwe, how would your idea be any better than guesswork? considering the sheer number of rcs out there, the branded forms, the ignorance of (a lot) of users and the complete lack of proper research on them in the first place?

well, in the case of benzo RC's it would be obvious once the compound had been ID'd that an unconcious patient might need adrenaline. In the case of stimulant or psychedelic freak-out, sedatives would be advised. The fact that there are so many different Legal Highs & they're sometimes used by the less educated is the reason such a service might be needed.

The real problems come when legal & illegal drugs have been mixed, or when any kind of poly drugs use results in a health crisis.

I would hope that with a bit of effort, & whilst concentrating upon only the most commonly used RC's/Legal Highs, something slightly better than guess-work could be organised to aid health professionals.

 

[kingme]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful, but the real good would come out of legalization and proper research.

There are few drugs with a direct antagonist/antidote (Opiates, hallucinogens) and they work at receptor level not substance (so the causative agent is not as relevant). The precise type of benzo or triptamine would be irrelevant in an emergency setting where supportive care is primal.

Would you treat a od of alprazolam differently to a etizilam od? Does it matter if the panic / anxiety attack is caused by 4ho met or 5meo mipt?

 

[pinkpapaver]

I am more or less certain that my pharmacist has limited knowledge and am the same way with the doctor. never assume tho coz it makes an ass of u and me!

In most fields people either don't want to know more than they need to or don't have the time to know more than they need to.

I'm disappointed about all this banning business. Did they not learn from radio 1 banning Frankie goes to Hollywood's relax....?

ban the burka ban the beserkas!

 

[Si Dread]

There are few drugs with a direct antagonist/antidote (Opiates, hallucinogens) and they work at receptor level not substance (so the causative agent is not as relevant). The precise type of benzo or triptamine would be irrelevant in an emergency setting where supportive care is primal.

Would you treat a od of alprazolam differently to a etizilam od? Does it matter if the panic / anxiety attack is caused by 4ho met or 5meo mipt?

No, but if all the medical personel have is a Legal Highs bag with "Trippy" written on it, it might be handy that they know that "Trippy" is not a benzo. The point is that at the moment, I doubt that A&E staff have any idea whatsoever how to deal with these kinds of casualites & some minimal guidance might be better than none at all.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful, but the real good would come out of legalization and proper research.

I agree completely. I'm just trying to find ways of aiding the preservation of life & health until this immaginary utopian future arrives.

 

[kingme]

Medical staff should react to signs and symptoms in absence of a certain causative agent. That and statistics of the area.
docs generally take a couple of mins to evaluate a patient to distingush one od from another. Not saying that all do, or indeed that most do, but they should, as per their education. ..
There is also a latency problem as most rcs come out faster than we can learn about them. Remember the 2nd gen of synth noids? How long did they last? Why invest learning something thats useful for 3 months ?
there is a communication problem. We can barely come to use similar terms ourselves, and they are far from standard. What is trippy? Stimmy? Is mdma trippy?
Thats also a reason docs react to physical signs and if possible toxicology