The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[L2R]

i won't lie, cross cultural relations are really hard. there's way more adjustment required on both sides to find a stable basis for the familial unit to build from. language is one hurdle, but moreso than this are cultural presumptions. you can't take things for granted like you can with someone who shares the same culture.

cross "racial" relations can be way easier. i could have married an aussie born to chinese parents, and it's the same as marrying a blonde hair blue eyes aussie, in terms of culture. the required adjustment are very minimal if you were both raised in the same country, irrespective of ethnicity or physical traits.

what is "white", really? go back a few generations and you wouldn't recognise it. go forward, it will be something else. nothing is forever. nothing is doomed. what is most important is if you have kids, how they will grow up. what the next generation values will determine the quality of their lives, as well as the quality of services which will look after us in our old age.

i chose to marry a chinese woman, born and raised in china. a real chinese woman, not just an aussie with an asian body. with this decision i made life more difficult for myself in many ways. i have benefitted in many ways too. i think there is value in genetic diversity for my children. i also think there is value in cultural diversity for them too. i have one child, a 3 year old son, so far. he understands three languages and is growing big, strong and very intelligent. when i talk to him, i think i have made a right decision for him.

 

[LosBlancos]

And I also think some cultures and maybe peoples might be better with some than others. Might be more stable. And work better. But, I'm not sure.

Its complicated.

I agree with this.

If we look back throughout time we see the Moors invading Spain and southern Italy, then later being expelled violently after the Spanish didn't like being subservient to Islam. We can look at Greece and the Balkans states being ruled by the Ottoman empire and having to bow down to Islamic rule as well, only the ones willing to convert were given good treatment. I suppose we can look at the present day as well and see the genocide of Christians in Iraq and Syria and see the mixture might be a bit like oil and water, despite what the Marxists would lead us to believe.

 

[What 23]

I totally respect that. Especially in the modern world, where we aren't confined to the evolutionary pressures that made us different, so much, and can still breed, one might jump to say there is no reason to not.

I must admit that just getting a DNA test has expanded my view of things.

They aren't 100% accurate (or/and, they are somewhat difficult to know how to interpret, but some of these don't necessarily imply direct connection, and sometimes if it is low enough it might be 'noise'- might be). There are many tests, and how I run it I just go by what is frequent enough. It's not an exact science-- even companies like ancestry and 23andme differ. But it gave me more of a feeling of flow. I also understand how related Whites are with those in Asia. There are many places in China and Iran, Afghanistan, where people resemble 'white'. It's been said that they may have existed there before others moved in, and mixed. But I don't believe that. Not to day belief means I don't think it is possible, and if it is related to that- some kind of trans European-indo-European culture where blood from the North came down, and vice versa, as farming was brought from Turkish/Middle Eastern farmers, I think.

But that is the flow of early migrations, really. But the main thing that was a surprise was Native American

My ancient relatives

Clovis were the proposed ancestors to Native Americans. This makes it seem like it is more than I am, but whoever the Native American was was related directly.

Anyways, for me to oppose race mixing or whatever definitely puts conflict with me. So I always despite what is read here keep a somewhat neutral stance as far as what I believe. I did before I knew, because I knew there was a movement, and exchange, and even Neanderthal/Denisova.

Yep.

I just want to be conscious about it.

 

[L2R]

i didn't know you could do such testing.

although i have dated a few asians (various kinds), they weren't my exclusive partners. i've had non asian partners too. i guess when it comes to mating, all that matters are the pair and the circumstances that match them. if it lasts, then the rest will happen, irrespective of anything else.

i don't think one should limit or hinder love when it happens, as cheesy as it sounds.

 

[ebola?]

As for the Islam example, I dont find it acceptable. There are a lot of Muslim females that I've found attractive. I guess I could fake being Muslim, but I'd rather not.

Sigh...there are numerous Muslims that date and marry outside of their religion. Your view of Islam is as if someone were to expect all Christians to be highly devout Southern Baptists.

Even if I 'mix', I hope that some- enough don't.

Why? Why should we be attached to white culture (ie, that culture associated with 'unmarked' Western ethnicity and race) rather than some future culture that we get to participate in forging?

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

Why? Why should we be attached to white culture (ie, that culture associated with 'unmarked' Western ethnicity and race) rather than some future culture that we get to participate in forging?

ebola

A culture where literally hundreds of years from now every person will be Asian, Latino, White, Black mixes and there will be an indiscernible world culture? That seems like what the Marxists want, equality of all, one world culture. No distinct nations with their own cultures. There will then cease to be any diversity.

 

[What 23]

And then there is that^.

L2R- I don't really either. Want to hinder it. I guess I can't even speak objectively for myself, so it is hard to try. I want to say I have a certain aversion to being with someone outside of my 'race', as far as mating, but I doubt that is correct. For me I do tend to like lighter eyes, because seeing the pupils makes me feel connected more. But I also find 'Asians' attractive. That includes examples of them all. I guess the one I'm in love with though is a strawberry blond/red haired white girl, who is Welsh, German, some other things.. And for some reason she's the only one that seems right. It is torture. It can be.

And I just feel the most toward whites, usually... But, I am not opposed to many. I will say that often in my experience I don't care for the natural odor of Blacks. This is not meant to be mean, or whatever. At least generally races have different smells, due to different oil production and perhaps type of oil (maybe hormones in it, I don't know). Perhaps I jump to conclusions based off of a few, in attempt to categorize/justify, and I've been with some very wrank white people, not even to say the smell is what I'd call wrank... But so far I'm just not attracted to Blacks the same way, on the level as some whites. Or rather, I don't seem to be, and in passing I don't experience serious attraction to many at all. But I do tend to like some Amerindian and Amerindian/Spanish mixes. And Indians. And really, others. And not to say a Black girl couldn't catch my attention seriously. I don't know.

There are other things, like hair often found in whites, or their related peoples, which can be very soft, which I like. Not that I have samples of everyone to base from. Anyways, I don't know- not to base it all on pre-assumption. I don't really. I'm always open to being wrong. It happens enough.

Then there is the diversity already present in the population of Europe. One family can have dark brown eyes in one member and the lightest blue in another member.. Hazel in another, green in another. Blond. Brown. Red. As far as colorfulness.

 

[ebola?]

there will be an indiscernible world culture

Why would more frequent hybridization lead to homogenization? That's not what has occurred in the past.

That seems like what the Marxists want, equality of all, one world culture.

How so? You're certainly not deriving this from Marx's writings. . .

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

Why would more frequent hybridization lead to homogenization? That's not what has occurred in the past.

The levels of immigration and interbreeding have gone up year after year. It's the global warming debate. Carbon emissions have risen in the past and the world hasn't imploded what's to say it would then. Sometimes events have a clear trajectory and rationally thinking this would occur.

How so? You're certainly not deriving this from Marx's writings. . .

ebola

Cultural Marxists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

 

[ebola?]

The levels of immigration and interbreeding have gone up year after year.

Cool. I'm not seeing it lead to a great deal of cultural homogeneity though.

Cultural Marxists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

Did you read the Wikipedia article you linked? Cultural Marxism is a pejorative term built on a misunderstanding of the theoretical positions put forth by the Frankfurt school. Basically, if you're someone who holds a more sophisticated view than Pat Buchanan, this sort of conflation between political correctness, state-led multiculturalism, etc. and neo-Marxist cultural critique is utterly facile.

ebola

 

[paranoid android]

So why are you comparing them to Islamic terrorists? They kill indiscriminately and that distinguishes them from these other groups. In just this past week 150 kids slaughtered at a school.

I am not comparing them to radical Islamist's as there is no comparison there in tactics or in end game political goals. I was merely trying to demonstrate how it was not that long ago that many so called "terrorists" where white and left wing and they where treated even worse then the Muslims are being treated by the government today. Alot of Irish not connected to the PIRA or INLA where arrested, held without trial and forced to sign confessions after days of being tortured. The Guildford 4 and Maguire 7 come to mind right away. Somehow i can see you being one of those people calling for interment without trial back in the early 70's as one of there anti-terrorism tactics. Or one of the few people that showed any sympathy for Thatcher the time they nearly blew her up.

There was a saying back even in the 90's called guilty of being Irish because if a bomb went off anywhere in the UK or a republican Paramilitary style attack occurred you had better have a good alibi. The same is happening today with Muslims. The reactionaries in any generation need a scapegoat.

 

[L2R]

Cool. I'm not seeing it lead to a great deal of cultural homogeneity though.

it's never happened before, it's not happening now, therefore it must happen in the future!

maybe there'll even be robots

Did you read the Wikipedia article you linked? Cultural Marxism is a pejorative term built on a misunderstanding of the theoretical positions put forth by the Frankfurt school. Basically, if you're someone who holds a more sophisticated view than Pat Buchanan, this sort of conflation between political correctness, state-led multiculturalism, etc. and neo-Marxist cultural critique is utterly facile.

ebola

lol, that's a big motherfunning "if" you got there.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Eventually they reach a point where membership is determinable with reasonable accuracy with one quick look, and someone not an accepted member of the ethnic group, even if they were fortunate enough to have a phenotype common among that group, couldn't possibly fake the rich, subtle, and unique set of mannerisms of someone well socialized in that ethnic milieu. My facial features are decidedly northern European, but when I took a train across Russia, and then into northern China where Russians are the most common people with my phenotype are Russian, I was seldom mistaken for a Russian local, even when I kept my mouth shut and wore clothes that were locally bought. It had to do with how I sat, how I walked and carried myself, what expressions I wore on my face, and so on.

I think a lot of this could have to do with genetic expression as well. The kinds of foods a person eats, the peculiarities of their local environment, etc, manifest in differences in genetic expression that are recognizable to the human eye. Just look at identical twins separated at birth to see the huge effects that environment has on genetics.

 

[ebola?]

I think a lot of this could have to do with genetic expression as well. The kinds of foods a person eats, the peculiarities of their local environment, etc, manifest in differences in genetic expression that are recognizable to the human eye.

Human sub-populations have never been sufficiently geographically isolated to lead to a great deal of genetic differentiation in the meager amount of time following our migration out of Africa just 70k years ago or so (evolutionarily, this is a blink of an eye). Now, where there are heavy selective pressures, we have seen genetic changes, namely when it comes to melanin content, the sickle cell anemia gene, and facial structure (due to local sexual selection effects with varying criteria for beauty), but current genetic analyses suggest that ethnic genetic differences don't run any deeper than this. However, this is still an open area of research: there might be a few select ethnicities which were subject to more thorough isolation and idiosyncratic selective pressures, leading to particular genetic distinction. We haven't observed this yet, really, though.

ebola

 

[Bardeaux]

but my actual point is the sky is not falling. you, your people and your culture are not under any threat.

This unfortunately doesn't make for very good tv or print

 

[What 23]

Ebola, there are more differences if you look at it in terms of frequencies of certain genes or variants of genes in certain populations, at least. Whatever that popular-in-study gene is that has to do with MAO, for instance, has different variants show up magnitudes more in certain populations. I'm going off of memory at the moment, but there are certainly more differences, even if it just means frequencies of variants turning up in different populations.

I mentioned the study talking about how there is a correlation between a type of gene and a populations in relation to Dutch people, and life satisfaction. At least one poster was quick to just shut the door and yell "Impossibru" at it, calling me racist to even bring it to the table. And with that, with such a positive trait (life satisfaction), I posited that there may be discernable reason for say Dutch people and related to "in"-breed- to choose people more like them, that is if they want their children to have the best chances to be happy. The study did correct for socioeconomic status and whatnot, and took samples of people from all around (outside of their social welfare system). Correlation was still found.

Also, there is the fact that Blacks and Whites and East Asians, and probably all populations, have some difference in hormones, generally. What causes this? Genes often have multiple things they effect, too. And then there is the fact that general differences may be found in body shape beyond face and skin... Like arm length and leg length ratios with body blah blah. I mean not to imply all Italians are the same or whatever, but averages can be found. Muscle connections different. Types of muscle generally different. And like, not that whites don't have the fast twitch genes (I do) but certain populations of Blacks have a higher frequency of occurrence, for fast twitch.

If- say if the Dutch did have a variant of a certain gene at high frequency and correlated with them and this gene is high life satisfaction... Say the frequency is 77% have it. Why on Earth would they want to blend with a population that doesn't have this gene variant at near the frequency? As I said in an earlier post, some forms of 'in'breeding/selective breeding can be good. Not to say some 'out'breeding doesn't have potential benefits. For the population breeding with Dutch like people, the increased chance of this potentially positive effecting gene is... Potentially positive. For one instance.

Not to say it only works one way for sure.

 

[LosBlancos]

I am not comparing them to radical Islamist's as there is no comparison there in tactics or in end game political goals. I was merely trying to demonstrate how it was not that long ago that many so called "terrorists" where white and left wing and they where treated even worse then the Muslims are being treated by the government today. Alot of Irish not connected to the PIRA or INLA where arrested, held without trial and forced to sign confessions after days of being tortured. The Guildford 4 and Maguire 7 come to mind right away. Somehow i can see you being one of those people calling for interment without trial back in the early 70's as one of there anti-terrorism tactics. Or one of the few people that showed any sympathy for Thatcher the time they nearly blew her up.

There was a saying back even in the 90's called guilty of being Irish because if a bomb went off anywhere in the UK or a republican Paramilitary style attack occurred you had better have a good alibi. The same is happening today with Muslims. The reactionaries in any generation need a scapegoat.

This is making mountains out of molehills.

IRA has killed the number of people in it's entire history that Islamist extremists killed in one day or week at most. It's laughable to even compare the two.

Is reactionary your favourite word? I'd say when your innocent people are slaughtered, your woman are led into a grooming gang, when barbaric halal slaughter becomes the norm, and honour killings are happening left and right then a reaction is what is expected of most true men with some semblance of justice. You might as well be comatose to not feel compelled to take action, what more do you need someone of your family to be killed before you "react" to extremism?

 

[What 23]

genetic changes, namely when it comes to melanin content, the sickle cell anemia gene, and facial structure

ebola

Also, though perhaps not apple to apple, I find it interesting nonetheless:

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/diverse-faces-keep-guenon-monkeys-from-interbreeding/

We had sex with Neanderthal/Denisovans as well, though.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Human sub-populations have never been sufficiently geographically isolated to lead to a great deal of genetic differentiation in the meager amount of time following our migration out of Africa just 70k years ago or so (evolutionarily, this is a blink of an eye). Now, where there are heavy selective pressures, we have seen genetic changes, namely when it comes to melanin content, the sickle cell anemia gene, and facial structure (due to local sexual selection effects with varying criteria for beauty), but current genetic analyses suggest that ethnic genetic differences don't run any deeper than this. However, this is still an open area of research: there might be a few select ethnicities which were subject to more thorough isolation and idiosyncratic selective pressures, leading to particular genetic distinction. We haven't observed this yet, really, though.

ebola

A couple things-- 1) What constitutes a great deal of genetic differentiation? If you're comparing genes based on percentage of nucleobase matches, you may not see a considerable amount of genetic variation between generations or populations. However it is known that evolutionary adaptations can occur very rapidly in response to environmental factors. If the environment of an organism is radically altered, it will be reflected in its gametes. (see epigenetics, paramutation)

2) What I'm talking about in this example isn't genetic differentiation between populations, but rather differences in genetic expression brought about by the environment. Going back to the example MDAO brought up, if we imagine that he was in fact born in the Siberian town which he described and had an identical twin that remained in the town while he was brought to the United States to grow up, you could expect to see differences in genetic expression-- for example, a potential difference in height from exposure to a protien-rich diet in the United States. What I was saying is that these environmental factors may not just influence the way that he behaved, but also the way that he looked, which could have helped to tip off the locals that he was not from around there. The diet is just one example of things that could influence appearance-- also at play could be exposure to toxins or pathogens, intellectual, sexual, or athletic pursuits, etc.

Getting into the theoretical, I'm very interested studies that look at evolution based on environmental pressures that occur during the life of the organism, resulting in genetic expression that is reflected in gametes.

Relevant article: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fearful-memories-passed-down/

 

[ebola?]

2) What I'm talking about in this example isn't genetic differentiation between populations, but rather differences in genetic expression brought about by the environment. Going back to the example MDAO brought up, if we imagine that he was in fact born in the Siberian town which he described and had an identical twin that remained in the town while he was brought to the United States to grow up, you could expect to see differences in genetic expression-- for example, a potential difference in height from exposure to a protien-rich diet in the United States. What I was saying is that these environmental factors may not just influence the way that he behaved, but also the way that he looked, which could have helped to tip off the locals that he was not from around there. The diet is just one example of things that could influence appearance-- also at play could be exposure to toxins or pathogens, intellectual, sexual, or athletic pursuits, etc.

Ah. I initially misunderstood you. This is an interesting hypothesis, one that I'll have to mull over. It's rather clearly the case (indeed, it's theoretically fundamental) that genes interact with environment to create outcomes. I'll have to think a bit more about the series of unique environments that humans cultures have developed in. . .


ebola