The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[Escher's Waterfall]

Did anyone notice how Los Blancos posted that story about a white person running down a protestor at a Ferguson rally? He then tried to flee the scene. Even though the driver had multiple previous alcohol-related driving convictions, he was not cited, but instead called a "victim" in the initial police report.

'Cause I didn't see Los Blancos post on this.

 

[LosBlancos]

Did anyone notice how Los Blancos posted that story about a white person running down a protestor at a Ferguson rally? He then tried to flee the scene. Even though the driver had multiple previous alcohol-related driving convictions, he was not cited, but instead called a "victim" in the initial police report.

'Cause I didn't see Los Blancos post on this.

Some people have to get to work, we can't all loot all night and stand in the streets protesting.

Attack a police officer, you might end up getting shot.
Stand in the middle of the street, you might get run over.
I have little sympathy for people who think the world revolves around them and want to block traffic necessarily. You can see the guy honking and easing forward slowly, and they still don't move, then some people seem to be banging on his car and violently approaching it.

From the video I saw he hit a white woman, so I guess no need for Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson on this story, or Obama for that matter.

 

[ebola?]

Discriminatory restriction of housing loans? BIll Clinton made a push to increase loans to minorities and low-income people contributed greatly to the financial meltdown/mortgage crisis

While interesting in its own right, this push made by Clinton doesn't really speak to my point. I was referring specifically to practices of refusal of provision of housing loans for those attempting to move into the 'wrong' area with the 'wrong' skin color. This occurs on a case-by-case basis, according to the whims of individual loan officers, but also appears in managerial practices, to (in their perception) preserve the property values of historically white neighborhoods. As it stands, there remains no sufficient body of oversight to address this issue. It is largely for this reason that many cities are roughly as racially segregated today as they were under Jim Crow.

ebola

 

[paranoid android]

How about drive drunk and run someone over and off to prison you go for being that stupid? Or do you only care if nice white people are getting killed as who cares about a few blacks or N-lovers right?

 

[LosBlancos]

While interesting in its own right, this push made by Clinton doesn't really speak to my point. I was referring specifically to practices of refusal of provision of housing loans for those attempting to move into the 'wrong' area with the 'wrong' skin color. This occurs on a case-by-case basis, according to the whims of individual loan officers, but also appears in managerial practices, to (in their perception) preserve the property values of historically white neighborhoods. As it stands, there remains no sufficient body of oversight to address this issue. It is largely for this reason that many cities are roughly as racially segregated today as they were under Jim Crow.

ebola

Is this just conjecture or is there facts to substantiate this? Asians are approved at a rate higher than whites for home loans, they also have higher average income than Whites so that makes sense, Blacks have the lower approval rates and lower income. Loan officers are in the business of making money, if you can't prove sufficient income/the ability to pay back the loan it's simply too risky for many to make. Seems like a bit of a stretch that a qualified black would be denied by a loan officer (they would be getting less business/profit) just so they can keep some neighborhood which they most likely don't even live in "historically white".

 

[LosBlancos]

How about drive drunk and run someone over and off to prison you go for being that stupid? Or do you only care if nice white people are getting killed as who cares about a few blacks or N-lovers right?

They had previous drinking and driving convictions (presumably I haven't read that much into the story) but were they drunk this time?

Was a protest sanctioned for that street, did police have it cordoned off? Or were they just needlessly impeding the flow of traffic? How would you feel if someone had to be taken to the hospital but died in transit because the street they needed to use to get there was being impeded by some delusional people holding a protest for the Gentle Giant?

 

[paranoid android]

There are plenty of "big events" that go unreported in the mainstream media, or receive a fraction of the coverage this Ferguson shooting did.

When a white person gets shot by the police they can't spin it into a huge narrative on how were back in the Jim Crow days.

No but they could tell the truth which is that this is the way it's always been. Black, white, Asian, Russian, etc if your poor in this world you are fucked from the get go.

They had previous drinking and driving convictions (presumably I haven't read that much into the story) but were they drunk this time?

Was a protest sanctioned for that street, did police have it cordoned off? Or were they just needlessly impeding the flow of traffic? How would you feel if someone had to be taken to the hospital but died in transit because the street they needed to use to get there was being impeded by some delusional people holding a protest for the Gentle Giant?

Pretty sure the guy was over the legal limit and if that's the case here it does not matter if the person or car you hit fell from a fucking airplane and landed on you they still say it's your fault. As for the protesters i have heard that argument enough from you that i am not going to repeat my answer as to why i think barricades can work even if they have the potential to get messy.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Some people have to get to work, we can't all loot all night and stand in the streets protesting.

Looking at his arrest record, he may have been trying to get to the liquor store on that corner.

But hey, at least he didn't do something serious criminal like spitting on the sidewalk as a non-white man.

So lets review - the same police department that treats someone who ran over someone else and flees the scene as a "victim", despite multiple drunk driving violations, will readily fine a minority for spitting on the sidewalk.

And for some reason, some people think that policing is frequently racist!

 

[paranoid android]

Looking at his arrest record, he may have been trying to get to the liquor store on that corner.

But hey, at least he didn't do something serious criminal like spitting on the sidewalk as a non-white man.

So lets review - the same police department that treats someone who ran over someone else and flees the scene as a "victim", despite multiple drunk driving violations, will readily fine a minority for spitting on the sidewalk.

And for some reason, some people think that policing is frequently racist!

Perish the thought that them poor cops are racist. I am sure they would have let a black man off as easy

 

[LosBlancos]

Looking at his arrest record, he may have been trying to get to the liquor store on that corner.

But hey, at least he didn't do something serious criminal like spitting on the sidewalk as a non-white man.

So lets review - the same police department that treats someone who ran over someone else and flees the scene as a "victim", despite multiple drunk driving violations, will readily fine a minority for spitting on the sidewalk.

And for some reason, some people think that policing is frequently racist!

You truly are daft, when there is a crowd of hundreds of people trying to bash in your windows I think you would flee the scene too. So after this Ferguson verdict people have the right to stand in the middle of the street preventing people from getting to their homes, ambulances to the hospital, ect. The right to set buildings on fire and loot, is that correct?

I can cherry pick cases too, in LA OJ was let off for murder a black man but when a white man crosses in the middle of the street he's written a citation for jaywalking.

 

[LosBlancos]

[h=2]Only days before a grand jury released its decision on whether there would be a trial for the August shooting in Ferguson, Missouri, the FBI arrested two men who were allegedly looking to buy supplies to make a pipe bomb.[/h]Sources say the men planned to kill St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch, and Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson, and also planned to bomb the famed Gateway Arch in downtown St. Louis. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports the men bought what they believed to be a pipe bomb from undercover police but could not afford more bombs "until one suspect’s girlfriend’s Electronic Benefit Transfer card was replenished."
The two men were arrested on November 21 and accused of attempting to purchase explosives that they planned to use during the Ferguson protests. They were also brought up on gun charges.
But this week, we are learning a bit more about what these men were allegedly planning to do with the explosives.
Sources close to the ongoing investigation have revealed that the men, Brandon Orlando "Muhammad" Baldwin, age unreported, and Olajuwon Ali Davis, 22, were nabbed in an undercover gun sting.
The pair were initially arrested after misrepresenting who the firearms were being purchased for, authorities say.
Sources also say that the pair intended to kill the St. Louis prosecutor as well as Ferguson's police chief and also wanted to place their pipe bombs on the upper deck of the St. Louis Gateway Arch.
Both pleaded not guilty at their Tuesday hearing. The two also waived their rights to a bail hearing and are being held pending further proceedings.
Olajuwon Ali Davis was a recent speaker at a meeting of the New Black Panther Party held at the Greater St. Mark Family Church in Ferguson in October and has been identified as the Panthers' "minister of law."
Authorities would make no further on-the-record statements about the case.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...McCulloch-Chief-Jackson-Bomb-the-Gateway-Arch

 

[ebola?]

Is this just conjecture or is there facts to substantiate this?

I was mainly going off of the memory of journal articles I read roughly 5 years ago (while grading papers for a sociology of race course), but a cursory google scholar search confirms the trend I noted. The following paper provides a good overview of varied discriminatory practices (you should skip to the "Is Discrimination Still a Problem" section (and then the Housing sub-section)):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915460/ (Pager et al. 2010).

[asians] also have higher average income than Whites so that makes sense

Well, if you cast the contrast on the basis of hours worked (not just sum earned), white americans actually earn more than asian americans on average. But this doesn't really have much to do with what we were discussing.

Blacks have the lower approval rates and lower income

These studies control statistically for covariates, like level of income. In fact, the most typical methodology used to demonstrate this type of discrimination depends on this type of statistical control.

Seems like a bit of a stretch that a qualified black would be denied by a loan officer (they would be getting less business/profit) just so they can keep some neighborhood which they most likely don't even live in "historically white".

Regardless of the motivations involved, the outcome has indeed been disproportionate rejection of qualified black loan applicants, particularly in historically white neighborhoods. However, I will admit that these studies do little to reveal loan-officers' personal motivations.

ebola

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

You truly are daft, when there is a crowd of hundreds of people trying to bash in your windows I think you would flee the scene too.

A crowd of hundreds was trying to bash his windows in? And none of them succeeded? Your theory seems to have a few holes in it. Perhaps they were bashing his window to get him to realize that he had just hit someone.

So after this Ferguson verdict people have the right to stand in the middle of the street preventing people from getting to their homes, ambulances to the hospital, ect. The right to set buildings on fire and loot, is that correct?

None of these protestors engaged in burning down buildings or looting. As for blocking traffic, everyone does at that intersection at rush hour, and I've never seen a ticket given.

I can cherry pick cases too, in LA OJ was let off for murder a black man but when a white man crosses in the middle of the street he's written a citation for jaywalking.

So the LAPD charged a black man with murder and a white man with jaywalking? How do you think that shows racial bias?

 

[ebola?]

Just another set of excuses. Defeat is being taught into them from the very start. Doesnt matter about anything.

For me, this is honestly beside the point. I typically find little value in trying to partition ethically appropriate measures of "individual responsibility". Rather, for me, the questions are, what particular socio-systemic dynamics condition which outcomes, and which systemic arrangements could be established to confer more just and generally beneficial outcomes? In engaging these questions, identifying a particular group as 'fuck-ups', 'unruly', etc. is not particularly useful.

If you have the drive, determination, passion, and develop a good work ethic, you can do anything you want.

There's "possible" in terms of being theoretically allowed by prevailing circumstances, and then there's plausible in terms of a given outcome having a high enough probability to be attainable without utterly exceptional effort. Honestly, the mere unlikely possibility of an outcome defying what social circumstances predict is poor evidence for equity, justice, and social mobility.

Just cause your in the ghetto or projects or wherever and you tend to live a life of crime, thats on you.

Why? Why wouldn't we instead blame the ascribed circumstances which accord disproportionate hardship? While I will concede that personal responsibility obviously functions well in guiding individual behavior, it falls short of adequate causal explanation of the situation at hand.

Well maybe one day things will be absolutely perfect and their be an explosion of success.

Well, maybe some day things will be just a little bit better (or maybe eventually a lot better), and the distribution of hardship will be a little bit more equitable. Now, we could work to try to build that type of situation, or we could tell those that fail that they should work harder. . .which strategy would you expect to prove more successful?

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

Well, if you cast the contrast on the basis of hours worked (not just sum earned), white americans actually earn more than asian americans on average. But this doesn't really have much to do with what we were discussing.

Well the average income does come into the discussion of loan acceptance rates. If your alleging that Black's having lower loan acceptance than White's then it's important to bring the even higher rate of loan acceptance of Asians into the equation. The hours worked isn't important, I don't care nor do the loan officers, it's all about the ability to repay the loan.

These studies control statistically for covariates, like level of income. In fact, the most typical methodology used to demonstrate this type of discrimination depends on this type of statistical control.

My head is spinning here. When I bring in crime statistics, someone always lists laundry lists of other "factors" can I invoke the same excuse here? It must be how they talked to the loan officer, their occupation wasn't as stable as the others, something. I digress. Anyways, the beautiful thing about the free market is that it's free, frankly, a loan officer should be able to deny a loan to anyone they don't want to and subsequently they lose business of not only them but of much more if it's discovered they are denying qualified minorities.

Regardless of the motivations involved, the outcome has indeed been disproportionate rejection of qualified black loan applicants, particularly in historically white neighborhoods. However, I will admit that these studies do little to reveal loan-officers' personal motivations.

ebola

Part of this does beg the question, why are these Black people so intent on moving into white neighborhoods? As we've seen with George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson, we're practically in the days of Jim Crow. Move to a white neighborhood and you might end up hanging from a tree with a burning cross in your yard. Why subject yourself to having to live around a bunch of privileged white people?

 

[LosBlancos]

None of these protestors engaged in burning down buildings or looting. As for blocking traffic, everyone does at that intersection at rush hour, and I've never seen a ticket given.

As far as you know they weren't looting or burning down buildings. That' can't be confirmed.

I'm pretty sure these people were blocking traffic for the better part of the day. Normally people cross the street, walk down the sidewalk and go about their day. These people were purposely impeding traffic because they didn't like a court decision made hundreds of miles away. If you want to be an asshole and not let cars pass then frankly I have little sympathy if you get run over. He didn't plow through the crowd, he was honking and easing through and they refused to get out of the way.

According to you we should allow hundreds of people to stand in the middle of major intersections during rush-hour for as long as they want, people should be able to rob convenience stores and attack police officers without consequence and play with replica handguns which have no features to discern them from the real thing and particularly brandish one at a public park. Those are acceptable behaviours to you.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

As far as you know they weren't looting or burning down buildings. That' can't be confirmed.

There's no looting or arson in that neighborhood reported. I think it's safe to say they weren't engaged in it.

I'm pretty sure these people were blocking traffic for the better part of the day. Normally people cross the street, walk down the sidewalk and go about their day. These people were purposely impeding traffic because they didn't like a court decision made hundreds of miles away. If you want to be an asshole and not let cars pass then frankly I have little sympathy if you get run over. He didn't plow through the crowd, he was honking and easing through and they refused to get out of the way.

Are you seriously arguing that it's justifiable to operate a car in a manner where you are likely to hit a pedestrian?

According to you we should allow hundreds of people to stand in the middle of major intersections during rush-hour for as long as they want

Meh, it's Lake Street. Nobody takes it if they want to move fast, at least not at rush hour. Other cars were able to move around the crowd. I'm willing to tolerate a little traffic jam in the interest of people engaging in their first amendment rights. You may disagree, but there was a police precinct right there, and the protestors could have been ticketed. Either way, it's not justifiable to mow down pedestrians with your vehicle just because you're in a hurry.

 

[paranoid android]

You truly are daft, when there is a crowd of hundreds of people trying to bash in your windows I think you would flee the scene too. So after this Ferguson verdict people have the right to stand in the middle of the street preventing people from getting to their homes, ambulances to the hospital, ect. The right to set buildings on fire and loot, is that correct?

I can cherry pick cases too, in LA OJ was let off for murder a black man but when a white man crosses in the middle of the street he's written a citation for jaywalking.

The guy was driving drunk so he should not have even been driving in the first place. What if he had say ran over a family member of yours while he's going to grab his nightly bottle of Whiskey probably half in the bag as usual? Would you excuse him then and say sorry not your fault.

 

[LosBlancos]

The guy was driving drunk so he should not have even been driving in the first place. What if he had say ran over a family member of yours while he's going to grab his nightly bottle of Whiskey probably half in the bag as usual? Would you excuse him then and say sorry not your fault.

Well he didn't and he ran into someone who was a sympathizer of a criminal that robbed a convenience store and attacked a police officer. Had the woman died she should have been nominated for a Darwin Award. Michael Brown had violent rap songs about how much he hated whites (perhaps what caused his confrontation with Officer Wilson, he could not engage civily with a white man) and yet a bleeding heart liberal came out to support him anyways. I'll be honest I'm not too concerned about her well-being.

 

[LosBlancos]

The First Amendment right to peacefully assemble does not involve hundreds of people blocking major intersections.