The ISIS Megathread

[rickolasnice]

I realise my previous post sounds a bit - islamaphobic / stupid..

I didn't intend to imply that all or even most muslims are sexist homophobes.. I meant to imply that the Quran and Islam is a reason, excuse and tool for inequality of women and straight up hatred of homosexuals.. Without it these beliefs and sometimes incidences wouldn't be as common as they are. A book of an infallible God that include versus not only mentioning these things but how to punish them clearly has a huge roll in the societal and cultural systems and beliefs.. The influence of theology becomes extremely apparent when you see what Christianity is doing to some African countries..

And here, fundamentalist Christianity needs to remain in our analytical frame. Legislation controlling women's dress under the Anti-Pornography Act in Uganda and the failed Indecent Dressing Bill in Nigeria were both developed in the name of highly conservative expressions of Christian morality, and alongside the much critiqued legislation in both countries expanding anti-gay laws and the criminalisation of same-gender sexual acts and advocacy for equality.

..

These dynamics are not unique to religious fundamentalisms in the African region. Global research shows what fundamentalisms across religions and cultural contexts share a patriarchal politics and a disregard for human rights, alongside their hallmark of absolutist, intolerant ideology. feminists think religious fundamentalism is, what it means, what it does.. The results? They vary but generally agree it's not fair.

The link to the source of this information leads me to a document literally titled - Shared Insights; Womens Rights Activists Define Religious Fundamentalisms 8)

..

The choice to discriminate is a political one. The use of religion to justify discrimination on a continent where a majority see religion as a very important part of their life is simply tactical. The same applies to arguments that religious fundamentalists also use, claiming that women and girls' rights or lesbian, gay bisexual and transgender equality is not part of African culture, or is the product of Western imperialism.

The argument that homosexuality is "un-African"and "against our culture" falls flat in light of the historical and contemporary reality that there are, and will always be, lesbian, gay and bisexual Africans.

I'm obviously equally aware that as with all religious texts it contains many often conflicting messages and that a lot of (if not most) of it's followers adhere to a completely different interpretation. Before I edited my post I had actually copied and pasted a few verses of the Quran like:

"Quran 2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who start fighting you, but do not transgress limits (or start the attack); for God loveth not transgressors."

To be honest, though.. I was looking for quite some time and there were a lot less loving quotes than i expected to find.. Shit ton about loving Allah, though ;

 

[bit_pattern]

How does this perceived anti-womanistic idea of Islam marry up with the number of recent female heads of state in Muslim countries?

Well played, Rezla Aslan

 

[rickolasnice]

How does this perceived anti-womanistic idea of Islam marry up with the number of recent female heads of state in Muslim countries?

Are you denying that gender inequality is prevalent in muslim countries or that Islam itself is not sexist?

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/27/iraqi-shiites-protestproposedfamilylaw.html

In March 2012, President Hamid Karzai endorsed a "code of conduct" which was issued by the Ulema Council. Some of the rules state that "women should not travel without a male guardian and should not mingle with strange men in places such as schools, markets and offices." Karzai said that the rules were in line with Islamic law and that the code of conduct was written in consultation with Afghan women's group."[15]

http://www.irinnews.org/report/88349/afghanistan-women-s-rights-trampled-despite-new-law

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/6/shariah-law-gang-raped-indonesian-woman-be-caned-a/

An Indonesian railway company, PT Kereta Api, introduced women-only carriages on some KRL Jabotabek commuter trains in the Jakarta metropolitan area from August 2010 in response to many reports of sexual harassment in public places, including commuter trains and buses. [13]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40468372/...y-buses-aim-halt-sex-harassment/#.VENKgfldVgh

Women are discriminated against in sharia courts, especially in family-law matters. Sharia allows men to have multiple wives and favours males in inheritance cases. Non-Muslim women, and Muslim women in four states, enjoy equal parental rights. There is employment discrimination against women. In Kedah State, women performers can appear only before female audiences.

http://www.dhakatribune.com/op-ed/2013/jul/09/women’s-rights-and-discrimination-bangladesh

Everyday harassment'
Iraq ranked second-worst after Egypt, followed by Saudi Arabia, Syria and Yemen.

The Comoros, where women hold 20% of ministerial positions, is followed at the top of the rankings by Oman, Kuwait, Jordan and Qatar.

The poll asked experts to assess factors such as violence against women, reproductive rights, treatment of women within the family and women's role in politics and the economy.

Discriminatory laws and a spike in trafficking contributed to Egypt's place at the bottom of the ranking of 22 Arab states, the survey said.

"There are whole villages on the outskirts of Cairo and elsewhere where the bulk of economic activity is based on trafficking in women and forced marriages," said Zahra Radwan of US-based rights group Global Fund for Women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24908109

Although 50 people were arrested for rape in 2011, no prosecutions were made.[3] A 2003 study revealed that more than 20% of women at a local hospital were there for sexual violence. The situation is reported to remain unchanged, and more than half of rape victims are girls between 11 and 15 years. Many rapes occur at school.[3]

Human Rights Watch claims that thousands of young girls working as housekeepers are raped by their employers.[2] Dozens of women were openly raped by security forces during the 2007 and 2009 political troubles.[2] Despite being illegal, female genital mutilation is widely practiced by all ethnic groups: a 2005 Demographic and Health Survey reported that 96 percent of women have gone through the operation. Prosecutions of its practitioners are nonexistent.[3]

The country lacks any laws prohibiting discrimination against people with disabilities.[3]

Guinea is ethnically diverse, and people tend to identify strongly with their ethnic group. Racial rhetoric during political campaigns resulted in the deaths of at least two people in 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Mali#Rights_of_women_under_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Palestinian_territories#Status_of_women

etc etc etc

How does the number of recent female head of states negate the evidence of gender inequality in almost all predominantly muslim countries?

Obviously I know this is not a problem isolated to Islam, but I just can't find the same kind of prevalence of inequality nor the same level of inequality in other countries. (I've literally been researching gender equality country by country semi randomly but including countries that are predominantly muslim or christian.. not very scientific i know but the the prevalence and severity of gender inequality was much more apparent in muslim countries)

Patriarchal traditions were readily transferred from the Iberian Peninsula to Latin America through the encomienda system that fostered economic dependence among women and indigenous peoples in Brazil.[2] As the largest Roman Catholic nation in the world, religion has also had a significant impact on the perception of women in Brazil,

Worst places for women to live:
http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/international/Ten-Worst-Countries-for-Women.html

Every survey repeatedly shows that the worst places for women to live are mostly muslim countries.

World Gender Gap Index:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...r-gap-index-2013-countries-compare-iceland-uk

 

[bit_pattern]

Anyone who thinks this is just a fight between Muslims and non Muslims or even just sectarian violence or the old we hate America shit obviously has no understanding at all of the situation in that region. Currently the only ones really having any success against ISIS are the Kurds which are made up of the Peshmerga as well as the PKK which is a Marxist-Leninist style left wing nationalist movement that is also on the Turkish, NATO and US terrorist group list. The PKK as opposed to the legal Kurdish fighters the Peshmerga have been doing most of the fighting and due to recent fighting in Turkey between the PKK and Islamic militants and other ISIS supporters the Turks responded by bombing the shit out of the only group that is currently holding the Kobane region from falling to ISIS which is the PKK. The Turks would rather put up with a Islamic militant state then give the Kurds their own autonomous region.

So yeah it's about a wee bit more then then damn Muslims 8)

Turkey has started shelling PKK positions and refusing to engage ISIS

 

[L2R]

Are you denying that gender inequality is prevalent in muslim countries or that Islam itself is not sexist?

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/27/iraqi-shiites-protestproposedfamilylaw.html



http://www.irinnews.org/report/88349/afghanistan-women-s-rights-trampled-despite-new-law

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/6/shariah-law-gang-raped-indonesian-woman-be-caned-a/

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40468372/...y-buses-aim-halt-sex-harassment/#.VENKgfldVgh



http://www.dhakatribune.com/op-ed/2013/jul/09/women’s-rights-and-discrimination-bangladesh



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24908109



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Mali#Rights_of_women_under_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Palestinian_territories#Status_of_women

etc etc etc

How does the number of recent female head of states negate the evidence of gender inequality in almost all predominantly muslim countries?

Obviously I know this is not a problem isolated to Islam, but I just can't find the same kind of prevalence of inequality nor the same level of inequality in other countries. (I've literally been researching gender equality country by country semi randomly but including countries that are predominantly muslim or christian.. not very scientific i know but the the prevalence and severity of gender inequality was much more apparent in muslim countries)



Worst places for women to live:
http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/international/Ten-Worst-Countries-for-Women.html

Every survey repeatedly shows that the worst places for women to live are mostly muslim countries.

World Gender Gap Index:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...r-gap-index-2013-countries-compare-iceland-uk

Did I deny anything? Nothing is so absolute.

My point is there are strengths as well as weaknesses in all "peoples". By focusing only on negative aspects (some founded and some imaginary), you dehumanise both others in verse and yourself in act.

 

[rickolasnice]

What aspects did i imagine? (Genuinely)

Naooo my beef isn't with muslims it's with Islam.. It's a choke chain on civil liberty, shackles on equality - a cage on freedom. The indoctrination of the belief it is the infallible word of God serves as little more than a barrier to civil liberty and equal rights.

Religion causes more harm than good.

 

[What 23]

I heard that that beheaded a baby girl.

 

[paranoid android]

I heard that that beheaded a baby girl.

Funny but i heard similar things happened in the Vietnam war. So much for only brown people doing it 8)

 

[bit_pattern]

Funny but i heard similar things happened in the Vietnam war. So much for only brown people doing it 8)

More recently than that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

Is beheading a child really any worse than mowing them down with assault rifles? Or blowing them up with drones? A dead kid is a dead kid is a dead kid.

 

[L2R]

What aspects did i imagine? (Genuinely)

Naooo my beef isn't with muslims it's with Islam.. It's a choke chain on civil liberty, shackles on equality - a cage on freedom. The indoctrination of the belief it is the infallible word of God serves as little more than a barrier to civil liberty and equal rights.

Religion causes more harm than good.

you have imagined that sharia is anything different than the institutional inequality inherent in our own social systems. you have also mistaken the difference between sharia and application of sharia (and the varieties, therein). you have ignored any context around gender inequality comparisons between systems (whether it be overt or covert).

the broad generalisations you have used are always falsifiable, by definition. there are always exceptions to the norm, and this means both tend to be mistaken for the other.

lastly, overt inequality is better than covert. just because something is hidden, it doesn't make it less prevalent. it just looks that way.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Naooo my beef isn't with muslims it's with Islam.. It's a choke chain on civil liberty, shackles on equality - a cage on freedom. The indoctrination of the belief it is the infallible word of God serves as little more than a barrier to civil liberty and equal rights.

My beef isn't with Christians it's with Christianity.. It's a choke chain on civil liberty, shackles on equality - a cage on freedom. The indoctrination of the belief it is the infallible word of God serves as little more than a barrier to civil liberty and equal rights.

 

[What 23]

Funny but i heard similar things happened in the Vietnam war. So much for only brown people doing it 8)

I didn't think it was funny at all fuckwit.

 

[quiet roar]

Anyone who thinks this is just a fight between Muslims and non Muslims or even just sectarian violence or the old we hate America shit obviously has no understanding at all of the situation in that region. Currently the only ones really having any success against ISIS are the Kurds which are made up of the Peshmerga as well as the PKK which is a Marxist-Leninist style left wing nationalist movement that is also on the Turkish, NATO and US terrorist group list. The PKK as opposed to the legal Kurdish fighters the Peshmerga have been doing most of the fighting and due to recent fighting in Turkey between the PKK and Islamic militants and other ISIS supporters the Turks responded by bombing the shit out of the only group that is currently holding the Kobane region from falling to ISIS which is the PKK. The Turks would rather put up with a Islamic militant state then give the Kurds their own autonomous region.

The Turks probably believe they can keep out the IS nutters easier than keeping on top of the Kurds, but still, it amazes me.

Just read an article where a couple of the militia leaders in Iraq are quoted as saying they do not want help in the form of western troops. This situation is getting more and more complicated all the time, and it's obvious there are to many political issues for a combined effort. Bring the troops home, Tony. Time for the area to fix the mess "we" made in their own way.

 

[bit_pattern]

Bring the troops home, Tony. Time for the area to fix the mess "we" made in their own way.

Yup. We've had our differences of opinion in this thread but I think it is safe to say now that we're not going to make anything better by becoming more involved. We should be ploughing the half billion earmarked for this clusterfuck into West Africa and stopping the spread of ebola

 

[quiet roar]

I thought (naively) that there would be a combined middle-eastern push against IS, and we could perhaps do some good in the area for a change, but I see that most arab states don't really give a shit, so neither do I.

 

[legalizeall]

More recently than that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

Is beheading a child really any worse than mowing them down with assault rifles? Or blowing them up with drones? A dead kid is a dead kid is a dead kid.

Funny but i heard similar things happened in the Vietnam war. So much for only brown people doing it 8)

This is war and what comes with it. From all sides. No winners, only losers. No rules and only death and destruction. Its what our money pays for and is the part of war people don't want to see or hear about but it happens. It will always be like this.

If war wasn't censored so much, especially in America, people would not support it. Sending good men to do horrible things. We see a burned, blown up car, but we don't see the blown up body parts of women and children or the ones that are blown up but still alive. It creates a detachment from it and doesn't show what warfare really entails.

 

[L2R]

Yup. We've had our differences of opinion in this thread but I think it is safe to say now that we're not going to make anything better by becoming more involved. We should be ploughing the half billion earmarked for this clusterfuck into West Africa and stopping the spread of ebola

I thought (naively) that there would be a combined middle-eastern push against IS, and we could perhaps do some good in the area for a change, but I see that most arab states don't really give a shit, so neither do I.

plus one


Can anyone even say what the I.S. endgame actually is (citing proper sources)?

 

[Middleway]

you have imagined that sharia is anything different than the institutional inequality inherent in our own social systems. you have also mistaken the difference between sharia and application of sharia (and the varieties, therein). you have ignored any context around gender inequality comparisons between systems (whether it be overt or covert).

Are you seriously suggesting that the oppression of women under sharia is somehow equivalent to the inequalities that exist in western society?
Re: Sharia vs Applied Sharia - would you like to give a real world example of this? Are you suggesting that Sharia in itself is not an oppressive brutal practice - rather - it is just the way its applied? Is this like a cultural relativity thing...because thats what it sounds like.

the broad generalisations you have used are always falsifiable, by definition. there are always exceptions to the norm, and this means both tend to be mistaken for the other.

Accurate generalisations are necessary if we are going to have an honest exchange of ideas. Are we going to specify every little detail in every exchange? This is why conversations go nowhere and degenerates into arguments over
semantics.

lastly, overt inequality is better than covert. just because something is hidden, it doesn't make it less prevalent. it just looks that way.

How is overt inequality better than covert? If anything they would be equal


I read an interesting article today in the Australian today, I tracked down a free version just for you lovely people

Beyond burka wars, the real challenges confronting Islam

AYAAN Hirsi Ali knows the hijab from inside out. “It wasn’t forced on me,” she says. “I was a part of the Muslim Brotherhood at the time.”

Hirsi Ali, the daughter of exiled Somalian opposition leader Hirsi Magan Isse, was a middle-class, Muslim high school student living in Nairobi, Kenya, a predominantly Christian country. Wearing the hijab wasn’t common among the small Somali Muslim minority and for her wearing it wasn’t about modesty.

“It was about power tripping and about showing off that we were superior to these other loose women in the streets,” she says. “We were told they were sluts, that’s how they spoke of them.”

“For some women it is a choice, for some women it is not a choice. They don’t even need to be physically forced to wear it, they wear it because everyone else is wearing it — in that sense they have no choice if they want to be part of the group.”

But for some, she says, “it’s like wearing an ISIS flag around you — it is a political symbol.”

Full Article (free)
http://www.av4i.org.au/full-articles.html

 

[What 23]

Can anyone even say what the I.S. endgame actually is (citing proper sources)?

I won't give a citation right now but seeing as they consider themselves the caliphate ruled by the caliph, they consider themselves the Muslim world. They expect all Muslims to follow the caliph and be part of the caliphate. And Islam itself has a goal to bring the entire world under God- to Islam (peace is submission to God).

Their goal is world peace.

 

[Bardeaux]

I thought (naively) that there would be a combined middle-eastern push against IS, and we could perhaps do some good in the area for a change, but I see that most arab states don't really give a shit, so neither do I.

Pretty much. Maybe once they start pushing into Turkish territory the Turks might rethink their strategy.

Can anyone even say what the I.S. endgame actually is (citing proper sources)?

We don't really do exit strategies anymore. It's a little passe.

The somewhat thought out shooty explodey stuff is our new model.