• HEALTH & RECOVERY
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules Thread Directory 1 Thread Directory 2
    Mindfulness Links Addiction & Mind
    Sober Living Partner Program (SLiPP)
  • H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist

Traditional means of maintaining sobriety VS Finding a new way DISCUSSION

Yeah.. when i read it back i figured it may present kinda strange.. This is a great thread and im just going to pull that post down so it does not effect your great thread.

Yeah, my thoughts often roll fast and i let them do this as its just a free form writing. I actually wrote allot a large segment of first draft material today as well as a few other longer pieces i still need to edit, but im going to look it over again to make sure in not getting a little to positive. I haven't had any noticeable mood elevations since I slipped outta paws a nice stretch back.

Hope your engagement went well tonight.
 
Is is curable? Is it for life or not?
Thats an interesting question.

Isn't it really 'just' a virus? A logical outcome of a bad lifestyle and bad descision making? What is the role of willpower? And if you dont have the willpower, isnt that the thing you should take care of?

When you have a bad flu, you won't get better if you go running around naked while its raining outside, it will get worse. It would be a bad descision to make.
Yes, you might get bored laying around feeling like shit, but that will pass if you do whats right.

When you are addicted, and you want to get clean, you will hang around feeling like shit for a while, but if you make the right choises, the good descions, so no poison (as drugs are) and patients (willpower), you will get better.
You take the substance, the substance aint knocking at your door, you go knock at the substances door.

The general tendence is you are an addict/alcoholic for life.
Untrue, i believe its would be a stupid mistake to use or drink again after getting sober, because you will dance around in the rain naked again, in danger of picking up the flu again.
Its like a diabetic, thats for life also, but if you watch the bloodsugar and what you eat, the chance of getting hypo is little to non.
You will be able to travel, enjoy, sport, socialise, everything.
All it takes is discipline and willpower, to do what you need to do and avoid what you need to avoid, to be ok and not sick.

Addiction is the same, discipline and a healthy lifestyle, acception and acting like a grown-up.

Thats what the message should be, the exact opposite of what happens today, addiction is brought out to be the most hellish thing that can happen to you, it only is if you let.
 
Interesting points, you two.

Physical addiction can be temporary, but it's hard to forget a rush, to unwrite an experience. Discipline, willpower, acceptance, understanding and adapting worked for me.
 
Thanks jag if you're referring to me...lol,

So here are the 12 steps for CA and NA, this just shows how everything is almost word for word.

CA taken directly from their website

http://www.ca.org/12and12.html

NA, couldn't post a pdf so this is from a site that I can link:

http://12step.org/steps/narcotics-anonymous.html

Lastly, even from SA website, at least they changed a few words:

http://www.sa.org/steps.php

This is why we need to adapt and change, do we really believe that the same 12 steps of AA will work for SA, and to the same extent CA or NA. I just don't get it.....:?
 
My only comment is I really appreciate you opening this thread. Very interesting discussion and points from both sides. Keep it going guys!
 
Good points above -- I have not contemplated regarding each step. For the first 3 steps I would say it really depends on the individual and his/her past.

Nothing against the Big book, but it was designed for male alcoholics in the 30's. I've worked through the steps and have also worked other ways. Both choices helpful, and sometimes harmful.

There is something called ' locus of control ' - in psychology. Internal/external. This may tie into someone needing or not needing a higher power to guide them with how they internalize external forces and maintain their own sense of control or surrender. Not that a higher power can't reside within. Relinquishing power for some could be so very healing -- yet for others could introduce more suffering, trauma, stressors, helplessness… and lack of self worth. I would say it really depends on the individual's upbringing, life events and personality type… stabilization times… individual makeup.

Relinquishing power for someone that has a lot of trauma in their past or have experienced emotionally deprived situations (improper nurturing), for example… can worsen the psychological injuries. For others -- it can help with a total surrender.

Also, there is a concept referred to as, ' learned helplessness '
example:
" In learned helplessness studies, an animal is repeatedly exposed to an aversive stimulus which it cannot escape. Eventually, the animal stops trying to avoid the stimulus and behaves as if it is helpless to change the situation."

This can happen with repeated trauma/abuse in early development (and could tie into drug use itself), and/or domestic violence. This could also affect sponsorship (object relations), fellowship and relying on something outside of oneself. Willpower could also be affected via ability to find intrinsic motivation for change and follow through with willingness. Trauma has to do with wounds. They are carried into recovery for certain individuals.

Traditional means, I feel can enhance willingness but are also --- outdated. I guess whatever works, is important. Addiction has a long way to go but has also come very far in some respects. Anonymity is outdated, I agree and can cause more injury for some but also has its place in certain arenas, like work.

I could keep writing but just wanted to chime in… I'm coming back almost a couple months off a 2 year heroin addiction. I had 8 years clean prior to that… BL has been so helpful and inspiring to find another community aside from only the steps. :)
 
Last edited:
bcfly7x7 said:
This is why we need to adapt and change, do we really believe that the same 12 steps of AA will work for SA, and to the same extent CA or NA. I just don't get it.....:?
Click to expand...

Well they very much have worked for many people, NA has been around since the 50s and it works. Addictions is addiction, why wouldn't they work for different substances? That is what NA is all about, all encompassing disease. Alcohol is a drug of course. But, addiction is not just "drug use" its a mind state, obsession and compulsion. A literal lack of self control and will.

Its interesting to me that some people see being an "addict" as a stigma. To me, being a recovering addict is mainly a private thing and a tremendous source of pride. Plus, it helps me help others. I am not ashamed of being an recovering addict and its just something that is part of my life. I have a disease that I have to manage. It can be a bitch sometimes, but that is life.

To be clear: I am not saying that addicts do not need more help. To be honest, the biggest way to make a change and have an impact would be to fund the services. I had a client today begging to get into treatment and the best we could do was a month. I sent her to the hospital to detox but who knows what happens next.

Around 23 million Americans have a substance abuse or dependence issue.
Of those, only 1.5 percent receive ANY type of treatment
There is about a 10 percent success rate for treatment facilities


Think about that, people often need several attempts before they can truly make it "stick".

There are many many ways to recover, but I do not think that some massive upheaval in treatment would be a good thing. Especially considering there isn't really an alternative model. I do encourage people who do not like the 12 steps to try SMART. I am not a fan of Rational Recovery, but SMART is great.

"After deciding to become sober, you need to be positive. Again, I am a God fearing man, however to have so much emphasis on handing everything over to God, when quite possibly in the past they have either asked for or pleaded for God to help with no result, could feel redundant or tiring."

I think its impossible for most people to turn everything over to God. Except if you are Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha etc. We take our will back all the time, its human nature. All the steps suggest is that we be willing to allow something greater then ourselves manage our lives. This is addressed time and time again in the Basic Text. Also, God is what you make it. It could be just Good Orderly Direction.

The steps cannot really be fully understood until they are done. For years and years I thought I understood them and could "figure them out" and I found you cannot.

Addiction is a self-centered disease, spirituality allows addicts to get out of that. Its quite simple.
 
If people can accept a couple premises I think all kinds of goodness would flow from them. But maybe the premises are not as acceptable as I think they are

A) The first is that what worked for others is useful to hear and worthy of respect

B)The second is that every recovery is individual. The most central and fundamental part of another person's recovery, while being worthy of respect, might be mostly irrelevant to another persons recovery

Even within a prescribed program, every person around is not necessarily a great mentor for a particular addict. Even whoever is considered the guru in the group is likely the wrong mentor for at least some newcomers.

A person adamantly against pharmacological assists is likely going to be right about a few people's situations. A person who is a promoter of pharmacological assists is likely going to be helpful to someone.

Moderation people are likely promoting moderation as an approach for some for whom moderation will never be sustainable. Some folks are promoting abstinence and a monastic type discipline to people who don't need it.

I think the thing is to trust people will get where they need to be. If I have views about what a person ought to be doing, I think I ought to suggest rather than impose. I have a strong feeling about several real world recovery situations I've encountered that many people ought be suggesting rather than imposing.

I'm of the opinion that meds for addiction will become more specific and useful over time. I know some people have a philosophical position that you can never treat a drug problem with drugs. When the right stuff comes around it will be a matter of philosophical vs efficacy. Sadly and happily at that point recovery communities will be less urgent, less attended, but perhaps a bit more sane.
 
MeaCulpa said:
If people can accept a couple premises I think all kinds of goodness would flow from them. But maybe the premises are not as acceptable as I think they are

A) The first is that what worked for others is useful to hear and worthy of respect

B)The second is that every recovery is individual. The most central and fundamental part of another person's recovery, while being worthy of respect, might be mostly irrelevant to another persons recovery

Even within a prescribed program, every person around is not necessarily a great mentor for a particular addict. Even whoever is considered the guru in the group is likely the wrong mentor for at least some newcomers.

A person adamantly against pharmacological assists is likely going to be right about a few people's situations. A person who is a promoter of pharmacological assists is likely going to be helpful to someone.

Moderation people are likely promoting moderation as an approach for some for whom moderation will never be sustainable. Some folks are promoting abstinence and a monastic type discipline to people who don't need it.

I think the thing is to trust people will get where they need to be. If I have views about what a person ought to be doing, I think I ought to suggest rather than impose. I have a strong feeling about several real world recovery situations I've encountered that many people ought be suggesting rather than imposing.

I'm of the opinion that meds for addiction will become more specific and useful over time. I know some people have a philosophical position that you can never treat a drug problem with drugs. When the right stuff comes around it will be a matter of philosophical vs efficacy. Sadly and happily at that point recovery communities will be less urgent, less attended, but perhaps a bit more sane.
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of what you said, in regards to point B: for people like me, its most important that I seek to identify with others. Its funny, I can be in a room full of people from the South West side of Chicago and feel like they understand me better then many others. Why? Because they are addicts. Our experiences may be slightly different but we think alike. I was actually talking about this in meeting yesterday.

In regards to you statement about some "gurus" being not appropriate for some people. My God is that true. I tend to stay away from these people for several reasons. One of them being these people tend to lose focus of what got them clean (others) and start to believe they are working the "perfect" program. My sponsor has 30 years, gives me great suggestions but also points out that I am going to make lots and lots of mistakes. I also stay away from those who are either against therapy and/or medication. Most people in the rooms are not doctors. When I enter the rooms I try to turn off my "professional" lens. I am there to recover, not to be a therapist. I do that enough at work! :D
 
QUOTE=neversickanymore;12637114]Here is one of the ways I went 180 degrees in the other direction, shared as im clearly not the only one it works for.

Exposure Therapy: A New Look at Conquering Cravings

Absolutely. I just saw this, and agree it can be very helpful. The truth is there will be reminders all around us every day. For me, in the city ... Every block has a reminder somehow at some point of where I used. Look at alcohol, it's everywhere. I relapsed my first time second day out of rehab... Drove straight to the city, broke into my old car sitting on the street with tons of tickets on it...opened up the glove box and used, my drugs were still in there. If I had been exposed prior it might not have happened.

I've stayed sober so far without treatment. I'm exposed here every day, hour. It's desensitizing in a way.

Note its very important to have things in place or to work with a professional before you attempt this[/QUOTE]

It could also be I am done with drugs this time too, so all these triggers are making me stronger.
I once watched an exposure type video where an addict was repeatedly smoking crack over and over and over, for an hour. My craving went up initially, but later tapered off towards end of video :)
 
Last edited:
Relapse prevention courses and multi systemic therapy have been proven very successful. For teens and families finding a wrap around initiative or wrap around program that offers multi systemic therapy in the home is a wonderful option to reduce recidivism rates of incarceration and problem drinking. These are popular in NM. Getting support from certified peer support specialists when exiting treatment in the home is a good option if it is available. These are common in licensed non profit NARBHA affiliated centers in AZ. I am seeing some really good ideas here. Forming a healthy exercise and eating schedule has really helped me. Someone said creating a schedule and routine is important and I fully agree. I try to do it all. I go to AA when I can and NA and I would love if i had the option of in person SMART recovery meetings but they are not available in my small town. I take what i need and leave the rest as they say.
 
Last edited:
Prescottdave said:
Relapse prevention courses and multi systemic therapy have been proven very successful. For teens and families finding a warp around initiative or wrap around program that offers multi systemic therapy in the home is a wonderful option to reduce recidivism rates of incarceration and problem drinking. These are popular in NM. Getting support from certified peer support specialists when exiting treatment in the home is a good option if it is available. These are common in licensed non profit NARBHA affiliated centers in AZ. I am seeing some really good ideas here. Forming a healthy exercise and eating schedule has really helped me. Someone said creating a schedule and routine is important and I fully agree. I try to do it all. I go to AA when i can and NA and i would love if i had the option of in person SMART recovery meetings but they are not available in my small town. I take what i need and leave the rest as they say.
Click to expand...

I would love to talk to you sometime. I am actually interning at a re-entry organization right now so I am dealing with attempting to mitigate problem drinking as well as reduce recidivism all the time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top