What is goodness? Can it really exist?

[swilow]

What do you guys perceive as being "goodness" or "right"? I've meandered my way to a very morally relative perspective wherein absolutism has become quite abhorrent almost. But I did something not so long ago, with right intentions and a sene of honour, that (retrospectively) was actually consistent with the typical meddling bullshit we humans do constantly. On my verandah, I have quite a few 8-legged arachnid brothers who basically just sit and LIVE in their webs. Smoking a joint, I heard that certain buzzing of flies wings, but the sound source was unmoving. The fly, poor creature, was mired with a spiders web, sheer panic and a desperate frantic need to be free informed its actions (to my anthropomorphic perspective), and the great spiderbeast approached... I knocked the fly free, it fell to the ground, unable to move due to the binding of webs and my attempts to help it seemed to kill it (it stopped moving as I tried to unwind the web) and the spider lost its meal. I wanted to help the fly, but I couldn't and my actions caused harm. But my intentions were "good"- weren't they? I wanted to help the helpless, to free the imprisoned- but really, I think I didn't want to be witness to death and so I interfered and fucked it all up... I played god and my moral vacuum sucked ass.

I think about idea's of right and wrong and find them to be strictly human concepts. I feel like they are inventions of humanity and that no such constraints or categorisation truly exists in the universe. That thought fills me with both a sense of dread and a sense of possibility/freedom. Dread because I fear that most meaning/truth I have discovered is as fictitious as right and wrong, and freedom because maybe I can stop judging my actions and live well with no regret.

The spider was not committing wrong. From a broad perspective, the spider deserved its meal. Only I, the creature of that trinity that invented right and wrong, could be seen as doing some gravely wrong in that situation. Beyond me, these things don't exist. So I can't have done wrong. But it seems I did.

What is goodness? What is right?

ps. I ended up trying to put the fly back in the spiders web, but it was never touched and I didn't see the spider again.

 

[ticking]

This is why the everyone needs drugs
(In moderation)

 

[-=SS=-]

I've been knocking flies out of the air with an electric tennis racket bug zapper contraption, and then putting the lame flies into webs of big spiders :D A part of me does cringe, but the other part is saying "well, these flies have found their way into the kitchen and there's food around here, and god knows where they've been previously". The part that cringes is more projecting what it would be like to be that helpless and taken as food. Having said that I have to remind myself how fucking ridiculous that position is.. a fly for all purposes is just a tiny organic flying robot. Have you ever watched how they move?

You shouldn't tangle yourself up with good/bad in regard to animal life. We are animals, and we do what we must. If there's rats in your house you're going to fucking kill them, especially if you have children. Yet they can be cuddly and cute (human projection). But at the end of the day they're an animal with their own program. Likewise if some chump decides to break into your house I fully believe you have the right to destroy him/her to protect yourself and family, and that you shouldn't lose any sleep over it either. If a child runs out into the road and I knock him/her down with my car and there was nothing I could have done, and they die, I'm not going to lose sleep over my "killing" of that child. That is life.. though I would sympathize with the parents obviously. Death fucking happens.

On the flip side one shouldn't use that as an excuse to engage in those kind of actions, or justify fucking over or killing others (or animals) for fun, personal gain, etc. Then again entire societies do this to each other (such as our own Western one) and we don't lose sleep over it at night. Our governments, which we voted and support indirectly, kill and destroy innocent life, human and animal, constantly.

The more you untangle the issue in your head the more you realize how pointless it is to tear yourself up over it. We live sheltered pathetic lives.. we rarely see death up front.. life is absolutely brutal and as children we do not see it. We think the tiger is cute because it was in Winnie the Pooh we saw on TV, yet if you fell into a tiger cage it would kill you without hesitation.

Right/Wrong is a human system for moderating human behavior and of evaluation. It doesn't actually exist beyond our imaginings. There is nothing wrong with murder, genocide, destroying innocence or whatever.. these are just things that happen (note: I'm not endorsing these as actions one should engage in!). Getting all "philosophical" about it in the way you have done is mental masturbation. Don't take that personally, I've done it, I suspect the majority do it, it's just how we've been raised. It's good to have a moral system though.. so we have a little space to bring forth better things from our imagination instead of killing or worrying about being killed by the other tribe.. moving our attention from the reptilian brain to the more advanced centres in our head (that are hindered by excessive fear/anxiety).

My final thought would be that a good/bad moral system is also about protecting the integrity of the human mind (not brain, the mind) from external intelligences that we can't see. A far out thought and one that modern psychology would say belongs hundreds of years in the past, but I do actually believe that it's true.

 

[Ninae]

"Goodness is contained within Love", to put it simply.

 

[What 23]

^Excellent post. It really is that simple.

 

[swilow]

Really good post SS. I'll re-read it when I'm less stoned and respond in more depth...

^Excellent post. It really is that simple.

I'm not so sure it is that simple. What is your definition of love? As another emotion, it is also something that seems to be largely constrained to humans; or moreso, humans invented this concept around a cluster of feelings/responses that are inherent to all of our species. I don't think the concept of love has much meaning on Jupiter, for example.

I would love for it to be that simple.

 

[Ninae]

^Excellent post. It really is that simple.

Think about parents and their children...they love each other feel compelled to just be good to each other...there is no other way.

But first there has to be love, as a source of goodness. This can extend to all your fellow humankind, too, although this is more rare.

I also think love exists partly for this reason, that we treat each other well and don't abuse each other too badly. Even in this world which has been dark and loveless for so long, there has always been a glimmer of love here and there, and most have at least been able to love their children.

 

[Ninae]

What is your definition of love? As another emotion, it is also something that seems to be largely constrained to humans

Wtf? Can't you see the love in the eyes of an animal? Animals love much more superiorly than we do. Their love knows no bounds, doesn't discriminate, and has no off-button.

And are you qualified to speak on the behalf of Jupiter, too, now? So this Earth was the only planet given the opportunity to take part in God's love? Which just randomly evolved on this planet over time. -10

 

[swilow]

^Of course I can see love in the eyes of animals. But I'm a human so I am inclined to see these things. That doesn't mean that these things are actually there. I think its somewhat arrogant to claim to understand the emotions of animals; it is incredibly fucking tempting but it is also unfair and limiting to animals themselves.

Regarding your comment about Jupiter, you know I do not believe as you do so there's not much I can really say. But you didn't really answer my question, which was how you define love...

 

[Ninae]

Well, you're the type who's more interested in having an argument than finding an answear or getting to the truth.

That also has its place at times, but some are sometimes just satisfied when they feel they have got to the truth of something, and would just like to share it with others. Not everything needs to be argued to death or seen from every possible side/perspective.

Good IS something that comes out of love and he felt satisfied with that answear. No need to reach for every possible argument against that, or how in some conditions it might not be that way, when most of the time it would perfectly apply.

 

[swilow]

Stop telling me what to post ninae . This is a discussion forum. You can choose not to reply. And your hasty judgements are really unwelcome and unfair.

And you haven't answered my question...

 

[Ninae]

It might have been a judgement, but I think it was fair, because taking that approach can ruin the point of what other posters try to put accross which can be something of value.

And you complain to ME about being judged/criticised. You haven't seen anything. Hahah.

Answearing your question will only lead to more questions or objections, it won't satisfy you, and I'm not in the mood to go back and forth like that right now.

 

[Ninae]

I think its somewhat arrogant to claim to understand the emotions of animals

I don't understand what could be arrogant about that?

I can see what an animal is feeling in any moment, just like I can with a person, clear as a bell. Of course you can't know everything that goes on in their head but you can sense their emotions.

I might be more "clairsentient" than most (the ability to perceive energies and emotions) or that's my strongest and only real psychic skill (besides some telepathy - no visuals of Jesus here), but I think many are perceptive enough, and bonded closely enough (to people or animals) to be able to do that.

I see it all the time.

No one who has truly felt love would ask how you define love.

 

[What 23]

I love the carpenter ant, even as I feel it crush between my index and my thumb. I love the life. I respect the spark of being, that is not that much different than me. But if I don't kill it, it might bring it's family back inside, and I might have a problem. Little ants I try to let go away on their own. But they bite me sometimes. I spilled oil on the carpet, and ants go crazy for that, especially in the spring. Its hard to get out. I may have struck them first... Because I felt invaded... But I still felt some 'love', even if I felt like exterminating them where they were.

Hmm. What is love? Multiple emotions do cluster with it. Compassion. Understanding. Patience. Attention. Acceptance. When I think of love, I think of a color. A bright white light, though I know that's not a color (but contains all). Soft enough to look at without shielding your eyes yet the brightest bright. My description isn't exclusive though. Its a frequency- a tone. Carrier wave?

When I have reflected on my life, only my love seems to be seen as good. And love of others has mattered the most. Love from. Of. And mine for them. How I have, or haven't conducted myself with love- that's all I want. Understanding. Simple.

I see family as good.

Often tripping makes me reflect on my love for others. And it makes me want to tell them. Its just simple. I feel like prostrating at times.

 

[Ninae]

I wonder if many here have read some Theosophy?

That might be more satisfying to those who are more scientifically inclined as it describes the spiritual and the evolution of human souls in a more scientific way.

It has so many complex ideas, especially the Djwal Khul material, which I struggled with as a teenager.

For instance, it explains there are 3 types of souls - that a soul is created to be more inclined towards power, love, or intelligence. Archangel Michael is on the ray of power, Jesus is on the ray of love, and Buddha is on the ray of intelligence.

I'm originally on the ray of love, when I was born it was the thing I excelled at, but I got sidetracked by power and intelligence (especially intelligence) as I perceived it as a weakness in me that I needed to work on. So I'm not so much about love now. However, this is only temporary, and eventually I will return to what I was made for.

 

[Xorkoth]

It may be that goodness and badness are constructs of humans and not universal throughout the universe at all... in fact this is probably true. But does that mean that there is no standard which is right for humans? I know what I consider to be good and bad, and it primarily involves love or the lack of love. Regardless of WHY we feel love, we certainly do feel it and it is, in my opinion, the greatest and most important of our emotions. And it behooves us to feel love and act accordingly, because if everyone acted primarily out of love, and not fear, misunderstanding, hatred, bigotry, etc (all of which I might say derive from fear), we could live in a much better world. Humans work better together than against one another. So it follows to me that, FOR HUMANS, acting out of love is the "good" way to live, and to do otherwise is "bad", because that will lead to the least amount of suffering and greatest amount of happiness. As humans, we greatly value happiness, or peace, and we avoid suffering (though suffering is inevitable, it is not inevitable, I like to think, for the types of excessive suffering we see in the world in some places especially, brought on by fear and oppression, to exist). Since we are humans, is it enough to think of goodness in our relative terms?

 

[Ninae]

I like your philosophy. Just provide a simple answear/solution without making it too complex or bringing in too many variables. What you said mostly applies to everyone at any time so it's good enough as a general rule (We can't provide answears or solutions for every single individual or possible situation).

 

[chasingabee]

In it's most basic form:

Good - Actions the improve well being and/or decrease suffering of people.

Bad - Actions that decrease well being and/or increase suffering of people.

 

[rickolasnice]

There is no such thing as objective morality.

There is no universal right or wrong.

As a human being, though, you have a subjective view of what is right and what is wrong.. and as a species, there is a consensus as to what is right and wrong.

 

[Ninae]

In it's most basic form:

Good - Actions the improve well being and/or decrease suffering of people.

Bad - Actions that decrease well being and/or increase suffering of people.

I think this is a good example that there is a thing such as objective values, and not just the personal/subjective ones that belong to ourselves.