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The ISIS Megathread

legalizeall said:
Why do you think we dont hear from the "peaceful" muslims when this violence is going on?
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Because tacitly they sympathise with the extremists.
At the end of the day they value solidarity among Muslims over any other allegiances they may have.

Ask your Muslim friends to explain the following verses from the Quran:

Quran (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Quran (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Quran (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!

Quran (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Qur'an (9:123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

Quran (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement

This is just a few. And before the resident extreme leftists weigh in and start making comparison to the old testament in the Christian bible.
Christianity went through the reformation and the new testament is mans new contract with god.

The old Testament is still relevant but any contradictions are overridden by the new testament. This is known as abrogation - essentially where there is conflicting messages, the newer passages override the old.

The Quran is also governed by abrogation which reveals an interesting dichotomy between Islam and Christianity.

Whilst Christianity had all its bloodthirstiness in the old testament, the Quran is the other way around.

All the peaceful verses that muslims are so fond of quoting are Muhammad's early work, before he became a powerful warlord.

What Muslims don't want to admit is that the peaceful verses of the quran are made redundant by the later warlike verses.

For example:
4:15-16 says this:
"Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.
And if two of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate."

While 24:2 has an entirely different prescription:

"The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty."

Also there are the verses that deal with the proper treatment of Christians and Jews:

"Thou wilt surely find that the strongest in enmity against those who believe are the Jews and the idolaters; and thou wilt find the nearest in love to those who believe to be those who say, 'We are Christians;' that is because there are amongst them priests and monks, and because they are not proud." (5:82)

Yet in 5:51 we read the following command:

"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

So in summary, moderate muslims don't speak up because they know that there is in truth there is a stronger theological argument for the extremists position than their own moderate interpretations.

Don't believe me, read about abrogation in Islam and see for yourself.
 
But anyway, I couldn't be bothered arguing with the unemployed leftist scum on this messageboard anymore so I'm off to retire.
 
Middleway said:
But anyway, I couldn't be bothered arguing with the unemployed leftist scum on this messageboard anymore so I'm off to retire.
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i just figured they dont say anything cause they dont like the west anyway so their not gonna say they support it but not gonna condone it out loud either. The ones i do work with talk shit about america even though their lives are so much better then they were in Africa cause of the lottery that brought them here and paid for their living, trained them to work, and housed them free of charge till they got on their feet from the job we gave to them. Thier remaining family in Africa do very well too cause of the money they send home which is of way more value then in the u.s. 500 here is like 5000 over there. But americans are dicks right.
 
I think you junk and bit are the only ones left in this forum. Sad. Angry little kids trying to get everyone out of their sandbox. Enjoy. Ill check back in another few weeks, see if any progress is made or if its just the endless pages of belitting remarks to people with different opinions. Like bit says too....well its true
 
legalizeall said:
i just figured they dont say anything cause they dont like the west anyway so their not gonna say they support it but not gonna condone it out loud either. The ones i do work with talk shit about america even though their lives are so much better then they were in Africa cause of the lottery that brought them here and paid for their living, trained them to work, and housed them free of charge till they got on their feet from the job we gave to them. Thier remaining family in Africa do very well too cause of the money they send home which is of way more value then in the u.s. 500 here is like 5000 over there. But americans are dicks right.
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I'm pretty sure it was you he was referring to when he said "unemployed leftist scum" - noone else was actually talking to him =D
 
I fear that within the next few months that IS will randomly abduct and attack members of the general public in western cities to make even more of an impact of spreading terror. While London, Washington and New York come to mind, it could happen virtually anywhere.
 
Middleway said:
This is just a few. And before the resident extreme leftists weigh in and start making comparison to the old testament in the Christian bible.
Christianity went through the reformation and the new testament is mans new contract with god.

The old Testament is still relevant but any contradictions are overridden by the new testament. This is known as abrogation - essentially where there is conflicting messages, the newer passages override the old.
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Let me guess, you are a Christian, guess what, your violent imaginary fairy is no better than anyone else's.

The part that I highlighted in bold is a misguided and arrogant statement, in what way does the new testament (or old for that matter) represent a contract with god for all of man? The fact of the matter is that all of these ridiculous mainstream holy books are filled with contradictory nonsense, it is up to each individual who practices any given faith to decide which tenets of their chosen religious doctrine are more valuable, despite the amount of hate and intolerance called for in the Old Testament and The Quran, most Christian's and Muslim's that I have conversed with about their religion view peace and living in a way that benefits others (not just of their religion) as the most important thing to take away from their respective Holy books.

To my mind, an Old Testament and a New Testament really just illegitimizes a religion as absolute nonsense, if a being/God is capable of creating life as we know it, I tend to think they are capable of forming a set of morals for said life on the first go round, if the people who wrote the Old Testament were channeling God in some way, I would like to know what made God in his supposedly infinite wisdom decide he was wrong and to go edit a bunch of shit, the whole idea seems utterly ridiculous to me, although I must admit that most religion does.

You come across as a really hateful person, your views are more extremist than most Muslim's I have dealt with and you need a serious reality check.
 
Not Christian, but touting The New Testament of the Christian Bible as the new contract with God for all of man, on what basis do believe your misguided opinion on this could possibly resemble a fact?

Whether or not a religion started with violent idea's in their holy books or ended with them, the fact is that either scenario legitimizes violence as much as the other when the former never bothers to denounce the previous mentions. The different sections of both The Bible and The Quran were written over hundreds of years, equally, it has been hundreds of years since the final verses were written. If you accept that the ideas and values of both religions evolved over that period of time then why is it hard for you to accept that the ideas and values of Islam could have evolved since?
 
drug_mentor said:
You come across as a really hateful person, your views are more extremist than most Muslim's I have dealt with
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This.

He should go back to where he came from.

But, anyway, back on Planet Earth...

Heard this today - an interview with two Australian diplomats from the region doing some excellent analysis on the complexities of the situation in Iraq and Syria and arguing on why it is incredibly stupid of us to get involved. I had been hoping for a transcript but it seems RN Breakfast don't publish them like other RN programs - so I strongly urge everybody to give it a listen. Runs ofr 16 minutes, use the "download audio" function

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/iraq-panel/5755046

Ross Burns
Adjunct Professor of Middle Eastern Ancient History at Macquarie University and former Australian ambassador to Syria, Lebanon, and Israel

Bob Bowker
Adjunct Professor at the Centre for Arab and Islamic Studies at the Australian National University, and former Australian ambassador to Syria
 
legalizeall said:
Why do you think we dont hear from the "peaceful" muslims when this violence is going on?
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Probably because of the sources of information you rely on - I've heard plenty about Muslims opposing ISIS. I mean, shit, Iran is now one of our coalition partners - that a pretty big deal.

And here's a few random examples of recent protests that I found with under 20 seconds of searching:

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/171666-muslims-denounce-isis-enemies-humanity-dearborn-michigan/

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/hundreds-march-against-isis-in-melbourne-20140906-10dgob.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/25/norway-muslims-protest-islamic-state_n_5711107.html

Just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it hasn't happened :\
 
drug_mentor said:
sections of both The Bible and The Quran were written over hundreds of years, equally
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I was under the impression that Muhammad received his Quran, therefore it was probably written, over a period of around 23 years. Checking further I tend to see 22 years, 5 months, 14 days.

What do you mean? 100s of years?

The main difference I see between Christianity and Islam (other than Christ as son of God, and sacrificed in one and not the other among other things too I guess), are that Christians don't follow a militant- they don't place a militant to be the highest person. Within the first 400 years after Jesus's death Christianity was spread by people without swords. Right after Muhammad's death people continued his Jihad (which he began) and spread the religion by the sword.

'Christians' who kill in the name of their God, who Jesus is supposed to be, are not really going by their religion. Muslims on the other hand, are much more in alignment with theirs. Granted Moses and others weren't much different at all... But Christians focus on Jesus- a guy who allegedly gave his life for them/us. The self sacrificer. The healer. Though even he has said some words that can be interpreted as harsh, his personal message never condoned rape and murder. Though one could argue he never said he was against the Old Testament- things in, in fact he said he was its fulfilment. But there surely seems to be some contradiction to it, at least.
 
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What 23 said:
I was under the impression that Muhammad received his Quran, therefore it was probably written, over a period of around 23 years. Checking further I tend to see 22 years, 5 months, 14 days.

What do you mean? 100s of years?
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I was under the seemingly mistaken impression that while Prophet Muhammad was the most important Prophet in Islam, that The Quran had parts incorporated into it that were written from other Prophets over a more lengthy period of time, a quick search suggests that you are right, thanks for correcting me.

Though I think the point still stands that if the ideas and values of Christianity evolved over a period of hundreds of years there is no logical reason to assume that could not be the case for Islam.
 
According to Islam, Muhammad is the last prophet. His Quran was the final and perfect revelation of Allah, and meant to correct the corrupted Christian and Jewish ones.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

Major incompatibility. Christianity left room for growth and change (not to say change of the book- The Bible, but...), and reinterpretation. Islam doesn't really. If one accepts Muhammad as he is meant to be accepted as, as the perfect example of a man and revelator of the divine, one also accepts his life and his words- all of them, as halal. This includes raping children (unbelievable I know). This includes raping non Muslims. Moderate Muslims will deny this, and they very well might morally go against it, but it is easy to find allowances within their book to these things, and within Muhammad's behavior, such as his taking a 6 year old as a bride, masturbating his penis between her thighs then, and having sex with her when she was 9, for example. He is held as an example of the perfect man, so surely whatever he did, and what his book talked about that Allah approved of ('rape' of non Muslims for instance) was okay, to any 'believer'- any 'Muslim'.

I'm not sure how they can really evolve without admitting he was fallible, and that he is not and his book and other words are not perfect... And that others after him can't have words- can't have critical thought of him. The same closed attitude happened with the Christian church, and probably so many other religions too, but Muhammad surely made sure to shut the door tightly.
 
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what 23 said:
Major incompatibility. Christianity left room for growth and change, and reinterpretation. Islam doesn't really.
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This is simply empirically false. Depending on the sect and particular strand therein to which one adheres, Muslims have one of the most advanced systems of theological interpretation observed to date. For hundreds of years, Muslim theologians have been publishing systematized commentary and interpretation of their holy text, and also debate over such commentary and interpretation. This body of texts has further been consulted prolifically, by theological professionals and the laity alike. In comparison, Christian theological thought is far less robustly and systematizedly plotted out.

ebola
 
My phrasing is incorrect. I know they interpret things. I lacked good argument there to fill in what I tried to- to separate. But how other can Muhammad married a six year old, masturbated with her body, had sex with her when she was 9, is the final prophet and was and his words were all perfect, and righteous, be interpreted?
 
What 23 said:
My phrasing is incorrect. I know they interpret things. I lacked good argument there to fill in what I tried to- to separate. But how other can Muhammad married a six year old, masturbated with her body, had sex with her when she was 9, is the final prophet and was and his words were all perfect, and righteous, be interpreted?
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Well, her age and what Muhammad did is open to interpretation.

But it was another time - to use an example that may hit closer to home, we don't tend to diss Christianity based on the fact that the holy book is deeply fucked up in parts. Even I, with criticisms of Christianity, will admit you can't condemn a book based on it being written by the people of the time, even if it openly talks about how God wills genocide, rape, etc.
 
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